I'm gonna be viewing NGE for the first time(Write-ups!)

[NickFury90]

Well thats just it, I don't feel like I wasn't connected. I greatly enjoyed most of the characters, with their various sub-plots, the subtle relationships hinted at through dialog or maybe Futuysaki staring at Yui a bit TOO hard, that kind of thing. I don't think it has quite the presentation of Bebop's combination of soundtrack/cinematography/art design, but its definitely not something to sneeze at, particularly in the genius mecha designs. I got "ITS GENDO *theme music* as my ringtone, have a few of the songs on my iPod, I recently defended EoE over at CBR forums, and have this as my wallpaper:

http://dauberchief117.deviantart.com/art/Gendo-Ikari-is-Scarhand-41087151

I'm clearly a big fan of the show, so its really irritating when everyone does the whole "You just don't get it" thing. Its really, really good for the most part, it just didn't change my life.

[Guyver Spawn]

I'm gald you like the series. I hope you check out the Manga next.

I recently defended EoE over at CBR forums

CBR as in Comic Book Resources? I have been on their forum for a long time since they banned me for posting three scans in a vs debate (What a stupid rule) .

[Chrad]

I'm clearly a big fan of the show, so its really irritating when everyone does the whole "You just don't get it" thing. Its really, really good for the most part, it just didn't change my life.

That's what we mean when we say 'you don't get it'.

Seriously though, I'm serious and not at all trying to be condescending when I say that you don't have to love it like we do. Not everything can have the same reaction to a piece of art. The things that can make the connection with art so special are very personal, so I can't expect everyone to like something like I do.

Well thats just it, I don't feel like I wasn't connected.

I know you weren't fully connected if you didn't like things like episode 4 or 25 and 26. You may well have loved lots of things in the show, but I and many other people found something very special and hard to communicate in those parts. If you didn't, then obviously it didn't make that same connection with you.
That's not a criticism of you, and I'm not saying that's a 'problem' that needs to be overcome. It' just...is. No one can change your personal reaction to art. It's different from mine, and that's where it ends. I'm just trying to explain how some aspects of the show that don't mean so much to you are very meaningful to others.
With all the trashing this show gets these days, I'm very glad you enjoyed it and got so much out of it.

[Eva Yojimbo]

I don't think it has quite the presentation of Bebop's combination of soundtrack/cinematography/art design,

I'll give you soundtrack - I've never been a big fan of NGE's OST and consider it it's only real weakness and Yoko Kanno = GOD - and I won't even quibble over art design - I PREFER NGE's but Bebop is quite good as well - but what planet are you on to say Bebop has better CINEMATOGRAPHY? Are you SERIOUS!? Anno's precise framing, iconoclast angles and use of sophisticated editing devices are second to none in anime; PERIOD.

"Eva 2nd half > Cowboy Bebop as a whole > Eva as a whole > every other anime I've ever seen".

If you come back to NGE and start to analyze its nuances like we do you'll probably change that opinion. Because if you feel the first half of NGE is a flaw then that's most likely something that will be changed with repeat viewings when you realize just how brilliant and damn near perfect it is.

Man, that ending…

I know, I had the same feeling. That awesome song (Walking Through the Empty Age) is the reason I bought both soundtracks. It's genuinely haunting and didn't leave me for weeks afterward. Haibane Renmei is almost as good if you haven't seen it; but it's in a completely different mode. I once said that Haibane, Lain, and Texhnolyze form a kinda loose trilogy of Heaven, Earth, and Hell (mostly based on the settings/themes).

I don’t feel like I’ve watched enough anime to really make that kind of genre-encompassing assertion, but based on what I have seen, it looked like that was the trend.

Consider that Anno and NGE were basically the catalyst for the entire superflat movement and you can see the influence right there.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

I don't think it has quite the presentation of Bebop's combination of soundtrack/cinematography/art design,

I'll give you soundtrack - I've never been a big fan of NGE's OST and consider it it's only real weakness and Yoko Kanno = GOD - and I won't even quibble over art design - I PREFER NGE's but Bebop is quite good as well - but what planet are you on to say Bebop has better CINEMATOGRAPHY? Are you SERIOUS!? Anno's precise framing, iconoclast angles and use of sophisticated editing devices are second to none in anime; PERIOD

"Cinematography" covers a wide range of elements (none of them editing), but mainly framing, angles, movement, and lighting. (Well actually, only those four. )

Within terms of framing I'd say both both are equal. (Same amount of mid shots, extreme close-up shots, wide shots, ect.)

The angles in NGE seem more dynamic and occur more often than most of the angles in Bebop. (More extreme low angles of NGE, vs. the fewer high angles of Bebop)

Bebop takes the cake within terms of camera movement. (P.O.V.s of running people/creatures, camera following high speed spaceships, the camera doing a 180 around a characters head, ect.)

Lighting also goes to Bebop. Very stylized, very precise, and slightly different on each planet to give each environment or setting a unique look. Strong use of shadows also play into the very iconic lighting that is Bebop. There a few scenes in NGE that practiced the same techniques, but they were not quite as often.

Now, if we want to discuss "Mise-En-Scene" (what's actually in the overall shot, from cinematography to character blocking to set design to action), I believe NGE wins the battle. The use of symbolic images in both the action scenes, costume designs, and set designs gave NGE an advantage over the other animes. It also does it's use in the color pallets of different characters and sets. I also think the characters' blocking in each scene add to the show. The way characters in the background would slowly get revealed in a shot by walking out from behind someone, or the person in the foreground moving out of frame to reveal other characters in the background, subliminally speaks to how some characters are constantly hiding behind other characters to avoid recognition.

SPOILER: Show

Misato's line in EoE speaks to this motif when she tells Shinji to stop hiding behind the skirts of a little girl.

THEN you would get into analyzing the editing of each series...

[icomeanon4]

"Eva 2nd half > Cowboy Bebop as a whole > Eva as a whole > every other anime I've ever seen".

If you come back to NGE and start to analyze its nuances like we do you'll probably change that opinion. Because if you feel the first half of NGE is a flaw then that's most likely something that will be changed with repeat viewings when you realize just how brilliant and damn near perfect it is.

One thing that definitely goes to Bebop's favor is that no one needs to make excuses for it. Sometimes with Eva, I get the feeling that you have to convince yourself to enjoy certain episodes like #4. When I introduce a friend to Eva, I'm constantly worried about whether they'll get it, and whether they'll see the things that I thought were beautiful as just lazy or bizarre. With Bebop, I don't have to worry about a thing, and I can introduce newcomers to it with total confidence.

I also wouldn't be so quick to discount Bebop when it comes to cinematography. The introduction scene in the first episode and the falling scene after Spike's first battle with Vicious are absolute cinematic gold. Movement is a very important aspect of cinematography, and Bebop clearly excels in that category.

I think that NickFury has it right about Eva's second half compared to Bebop as a whole. The highest points of Eva remain absolutely untouchable in anime, but those moments came at a heavy price to the rest of the show. Bebop established an exceptional level of quality from the very beginning, and maintained it until the very end. Its best moments don't compare to Eva's best moments, but almost every second of it trumps the vast bulk of Eva.

Personally, I enjoy Eva more than Bebop, but I don't think I can honestly say that it's a better work than Bebop. I grew to love a lot of Eva's flaws, but Bebop has essentially no flaws to speak of.

[Chrad]

One thing that definitely goes to Bebop's favor is that no one needs to make excuses for it. Sometimes with Eva, I get the feeling that you have to convince yourself to enjoy certain episodes like #4.

I found #4 absolutely brilliant on my very first viewing of it, and I don't think one needs make any excuses for Eva. It stands up brilliantly; the only question is whether people are willing to go with it or able to make a connection with it.

When I introduce a friend to Eva, I'm constantly worried about whether they'll get it, and whether they'll see the things that I thought were beautiful as just lazy or bizarre. With Bebop, I don't have to worry about a thing, and I can introduce newcomers to it with total confidence.

That only means that Cowboy Bebop is a more accessible show. It doesn't mean it's better.
You can introduce a newcomer to Shakespeare and be fearful that they'll hate it, and you may well be right. If you show this same person a Stephen King short, it's a pretty safe bet that they'll like it.
That doesn't mean that Stephen King is better than Shakespeare, though.
I strongly believe that Eva is great art, and great art simply cannot appeal to everyone.
Great art is also demanding. What you are essentially saying is that Eva is very demanding and Cowboy Bebop isn't. I don't see how this is a problem.

I also wouldn't be so quick to discount Bebop when it comes to cinematography. The introduction scene in the first episode and the falling scene after Spike's first battle with Vicious are absolute cinematic gold.

You are right that Cowboy Bebop has some interesting and stylish cinematography...

Movement is a very important aspect of cinematography, and Bebop clearly excels in that category.

...but I wouldn't say that Bebop trumps Eva for a reason like this, because you are assessing Eva by criteria irrelevant to its aims. A better statement would be to say 'Movement is a very important aspect of Cowboy Bebop's cinematography'. Evangelion prioritizes static framing and long shots for a good portion of the series. Claiming superiority for Bebop's cinematography because of its kinetic nature is like criticising that show for its lack of very long, static, sparse shots. It's simply a stylistic difference that has nothing to do with superiority.
I do think that Evangelion has some incredible animation and framing for movement at times though, particularly during Asuka's battle with the MP Evas.

You could argue that Cowboy Bebop has the better, more interesting cinematography overall, but you'd need to do so on account of its general quality and evocativeness, not because of some arbitrary criteria that can't be fairly applied across both works, carrying as they do very different aims.
That said, I think Evangelion's overall mise-en-scene is superior to Bebop's. The visual rhymes and the sparse compositions do a lot to illustrate the themes at the core of Anno's story. I think it has an economy and clarity to its visual language that Cowboy Bebop lacks.
And like I wrote a few posts up, just about every frame in The End of Evangelion is a beautiful, perfect image in itself.

I think that NickFury has it right about Eva's second half compared to Bebop as a whole. The highest points of Eva remain absolutely untouchable in anime, but those moments came at a heavy price to the rest of the show. Bebop established an exceptional level of quality from the very beginning, and maintained it until the very end. Its best moments don't compare to Eva's best moments, but almost every second of it trumps the vast bulk of Eva.

Once again, I disagree on a subjective level, since I enjoyed Evangelion immensely from start to finish, and as an overall work I think it trumps Cowboy Bebop easily. I don't know quite what you mean when you say that it's best moments come at a heavy price to the rest of the show. Those moments work because of the foundations laid by the early moments of the series.

Personally, I enjoy Eva more than Bebop, but I don't think I can honestly say that it's a better work than Bebop. I grew to love a lot of Eva's flaws, but Bebop has essentially no flaws to speak of.

As Eva Yojimbo has said, Bebop might not have 'flaws' that can be so easily picked out as in Eva, but that's because it is on the whole a much safer, less daring work. Eva is willing to take risks, and in doing so, 'flaws' appear in its design. Does this make it worse?
In the words of an overrated, often obnoxious, yet sometimes perfectly on target film critic...

Great movies are rarely perfect movies.

Evangelion, like the great movies Kael refers to, and like all great works of art, works not in spite of, but because of its flaws (and this is the only true perfection, I feel). This is where what you say about learning to 'enjoy its flaws' gets to the heart of the matter. In the vast majority of cases, if the 'flaws' in Eva were to be 'corrected', it would only take away from the greatness of the whole. These flaws are part of what make the show what it is, and what make it work so well.
What is perfection if the 'perfect', 'flawless' work has less affect than the flawed, ambitious work? Which is superior?
Works are only ever great through ambition, and ambition leads to flaws being created. A work that is played very safe and sticks to the paths already travelled can much more easily become 'flawless', but it is, in a way, a dead work. Perfection is the realm of dead things. Life is messy. Flaws give a work room to breathe, an expanse of different interpretative possibilities, and a life of its own. This is why, as Eva Yojimbo has said, Evangelion, the ambitious, flawed work, will be relevant in decades to come, while Cowboy Bebop, a safe, but 'perfect' work, will fade into obscurity.

[Mr. Tines]

I don't think it has quite the presentation of Bebop's combination of soundtrack/cinematography/art design,

I'll give you soundtrack - I've never been a big fan of NGE's OST and consider it it's only real weakness

Yes, NGE's soundtrack is redolent of '60s camp, except when suddenly it bursts into appropriate-for-the-moment classical, which then jars against the rest of it. As for Bebop -- I only saw the movie, and recall the ludicrously inappropriate soundtrack from that, which at once point had the audience burst out in uncomfortable guffaws.

--

Episode 4 is the big flag that we're fucking with the tropes here, and you're not supposed to think that the lead character is a hero, or even particularly likeable. For the rest of it I was enjoying it as monster-of-the-week sci-fi by fans up to the point where Asuka got under my skin.

[NickFury90]

Maybe we shouldn't get so techincal with cinematopgraphy, but the fusion of the music and the visuals in Bebop creates an aesthic that I believe is second to none.

I do understand the whole "messier flawed masterpiece" thing. Let me use an analogy that is easier for me to explain. It goes back, once again, to Grant Morrison, who IMO is probably the best writer working today BECAUSE his work is so damn crazy, and that although not everything works, its crazy trying to analyze everything. In fact, I think Evangelion is the only TV series I could see Morrison writing; that "Pop Avant Grade" my friend Patrick talks about, the way he uses genre tropes as the basis for all his crazy ideas and symbolism and what not.

Anyway, I like to think of Evangelion as The Invisbles, and Bebop as All-Star Superman.

Patrick LOOOOOOOOOOOOVES the Invisibles. To put it simply, what Evangelion is to Yojimbo, the Invisibles are to Patrick, and thats not hyperbole. The series involves magic, time travel, rapists, transvestie martial artists, killer mimes, summoning of "new gods" like John Lennon, shamen, every single conspiracy theory known to me, forth wall breaking, trope-subverting, metafictonal references, pychdeliic panels, and many, many, MANY more crazy things. It even has a similar ending to Evangelion, with the main character taking the world into the next stage of existence. Patrick and co spend many, MANY days analyzing and discussing things, and rewards rereads with new things you probably wouldn't have saw on even your third or forth time through(hell, the first line of the series is “And so we return and begin again.” , as if Morrison is saying "Rereading again, I see?"). Its a 60-issues long, giant mess of crazy ideas, metaphors, and sygnils.

Bebop would be All-Star Superman, a 12-issue out-of-continuity maxiseries chronicling Superman's last few remaining days. Superman was tricked by his greatest enemy, Lex Luthor, into absorbing too much sunlight when saving an expendtion in the core of the sun, and now is slowly dying. The issues are mostly stand alones, with the occasional two-parter, but they all have an overarching story arc(much like Bebop). The series takes the greatest, original superhero and his cast of characters, boils them down to what makes them great with so much as a single line of dialog or a certain action, and goes about making fantastic stories with them. He makes it look so effortless; the first three pages says all you need to know about Superman. The first page has the entire Superman origin summed up in four panels and eight words. The next two pages are a big "spread shot" of Superman, with a determined look on his face, flying through the Sun. You can pretty much hear the John Williams theme playing in your head. The artwork is just as perfect, showing so much kinetic energy and a real atmosphere to every panel(compared to the Invisibles, which has lots of different artists). I should just stop here, because this thing is pretty much flawless. Characterzation, panel layout, artwork, dialog, pacing, and pure imagination and love for the characters; PERFECT.

And yet its clear that the Invisibles is the more ambitious of the two works. Thats not say All-Star Superman isn't without its themes; the book has all kinds of analogues for Superman(Super Lois, Super Luthor, Kryptonians, Bizarro Superman, BIZARRO Bizarro Superman, Black K Superman, Future Supermen, Krypto the Superdog, etc), but they all pale in comparsion to the original, and it really made me love the character of Superman, the one undeniable "God" of the universe with no flaws and a love for all human life. But again, it doesn't have nearly as many ideas, metaphors, metafictional scenes, sygnils, themes, or allegories as the Invisibles.

That doesn't make it the better of the two works IMO, though. I can safely say that the Invisibles has a lot of great moments and has the kind of ambition I have never seen in another comic run. But its deeeeply flawed. Again, Patrick loves it in spite of its flaws, and although he loves All-Star Superman as well, its the Invisibles that will always be that one piece of fiction that he adores the most.

But to me, All-Star Superman, although the "safer, less ambitious" work, is just so damn perfect and flawless in its execution, I always find it to be the superior work, ala Bebop.

I hope that made sense >_>

[Chrad]

Patrick...Evangelion...Grant Morrison...'pop avant garde'...

'Thoughts on Stuff' Patrick!?
Small world.

Really nice blog he runs.
He has some great taste and perceptive writing.

Anyway, I understand where you're coming from.
This comes down to personal preference and philosophy, I think.

[NickFury90]

Patrick...Evangelion...Grant Morrison...'pop avant garde'...

'Thoughts on Stuff' Patrick!?
Small world.

Really nice blog he runs.
He has some great taste and perceptive writing.

Anyway, I understand where you're coming from.
This comes down to personal preference and philosophy, I think.

YES, thats him. Here's currently running off to San Diego for the Comic Con(something I'm VERY jealous of) and to do more interview work for his Grant Morrison documentary(something I'm even MORE jealous of).

[NemZ]

ITT: film nerds ruin a fun series of reviews by overanalyzing and whining that the reviewer doesn't love it enough. BAWWWWWW.

This is Chit-Chat, not Discussion. How hard is that to remember?

[Chrad]

ITT: film nerds ruin a fun series of reviews by overanalyzing and whining that the reviewer doesn't love it enough. BAWWWWWW.
This is Chit-Chat, not Discussion. How hard is that to remember?

It all started because of the Cowboy Bebop comparison. A bunch of people, including myself, posted our reaction to it, which started something of a sub-discussion. Are you saying that discussion should be stifled, regardless of whether it organically grows from the thread, because of the sub forum it's located in?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it's the mods' job to moderate and move/split topics accordingly.
I don't believe you're a mod.

YES, thats him. Here's currently running off to San Diego for the Comic Con(something I'm VERY jealous of) and to do more interview work for his Grant Morrison documentary(something I'm even MORE jealous of).

Lucky guy.
Hope it turns out well for him.

[NemZ]

I don't believe you're a mod.

Of course I'm not. That fact negates my ability to solve the problem but does nothing to remove my right to complain about it.

Geez, just let the guy say what he thinks without telling him he's doing it wrong. Bebop vs. Eva is a matter of opinion, not a statement of fact, and you can't argue with an opinion without looking like an elitist douchebag.

[schismatics]

Bebop vs. Eva is a matter of opinion, not a statement of fact, and you can't argue with an opinion without looking like an elitist douchebag.

THIS.

Besides when are we going to get to the reviews of 24-26 and EoE??

Please...? The reviews entertain me so.

[Chrad]

Geez, just let the guy say what he thinks without telling him he's doing it wrong. Bebop vs. Eva is a matter of opinion, not a statement of fact, and you can't argue with an opinion without looking like an elitist douchebag.

Eh, he's not wrong. You can't be right or wrong over these things.
And for the record, I don't think he's wrong, I just disagree. There's a difference when you're talking about something subjective, like art. I don't think I stated outright that his opinion was wrong, though others might have. I was stating my opinion and debating the relative qualities of the work. I think the comparison between ambitious and reaching (overreaching?) messiness and safe perfection in a work is interesting and I wanted to discuss it. You can argue that it's the wrong forum for that, but like I said, it came up in the thread so I added my two cents.

Whether the comparison is fair or not, I don't think there's anything wrong with arguing for your opinion or discussing the reasons for differences of opinion. Millions of people do this, all over the world, every day.

Going back a bit, my point was, Bebop vs. Eva was brought up by NickFury90 and we responded to it. It's an organic growth from the thread.

[NemZ]

First, I'm sorry for the indirect name-calling. I'm cranky from insomnia.

Maybe right/wrong isn't how you intended your comments, but that's certainly how I perceive the current direction of the thread and I'm apparently not alone. It probably has something to do with me remembering the existence of this:

PLEEEEASE don't do the whole mature elitist bullshit, ok?

That said, I realize that all this is currently accomplishing is the creation of yet another disturbance, so I'll kindly ask a mod to split off this little bitch-fit of mine and kill it with fire.

[Chrad]

First, I'm sorry for the indirect name-calling. I'm cranky from insomnia.

No problem, I understand where you were coming from...

Maybe right/wrong isn't how you intended your comments, but that's certainly how I perceive the current direction of the thread and I'm apparently not alone. It probably has something to do with me remembering the existence of this:

PLEEEEASE don't do the whole mature elitist bullshit, ok?

..and I'm sorry if I've come off that way. I don't mean to suggest that NickFury90 is somehow immature or intellectually superficial if he prefers Cowboy Bebop (and a similar claim was the context for that quote). It's kind of inevitable that this thread seems to go in that direction when you have people like me and Jimbo arguing for a show we feel ridiculously passionate about, though.
But let it be clear: I don't think any less of people for preferring something like Cowboy Bebop to Evangelion, and I respect anyone's right to disagree with anything I say and think. I'm such a contrarian on a lot of things that it would be downright hypocritical of me not to.

[Eva Yojimbo]

EDIT: I know this is long, but I'm replying to like 4-5 different people.

You know, on a slightly OT point, I've always found Bebop's extreme popularity (in the West) a bit funny if not ironic. I assume most get into anime because it's something DIFFERENT than what you get in the West on TV, film, and animation. In general, what makes anime so different is its greater fusion of Eastern and Western aesthetic theories. That 'Eastern aesthetic' IS something that's very different to those raised here on Western TV, film, and animation.

Anyway, I find Bebop's popularity ironic because it is BY FAR the most Western anime I've seen. I'm sure there are others just as Western, but ALL of Bebop's influences come from the West. So I've always found it strange that most who love anime would then love an anime that is very, well... UN-anime.

"Cinematography" covers a wide range of elements (none of them editing), but mainly framing, angles, movement, and lighting. (Well actually, only those four.

I realize editing isn't technically a part of cinematography but the reason I included it is because many times Anno's cinematography (especially framing) is structured around his editing; I think of elements like those dramatic shifting match cuts (ala ep. 2 which goes from the battle/close-up of Misato to close-up of Shinji waking up in the hospital, cutting back to quiet wide shot). Bebop rarely shows this kind of cinematic sophistication; it's much more... willy-nilly.

Within terms of framing I'd say both both are equal. (Same amount of mid shots, extreme close-up shots, wide shots, ect.)

No; Anno's framing is, overall, much more artistic. Many of times he's able to communicate more in a scene by how it's framed than any other element. Ep. 1 is a perfect example which in an elevator frames Shinji in a low/medium shot between Misato and Ritsuko - really foreshadowing the dilemma he's caught between - and a bit later he's again framed between them in a wide shot with 01 looming in the background, almost as if its about to devour poor Shinji.

Again, I don't see anything this artistically potent in Bebop.

Bebop takes the cake within terms of camera movement.

To argue this I'd really have to go into my theory of why I dislike camera movement in general in animation. Most of the time it comes off as incredibly fake and forced because it's essentially simulating movement like it would be in 3D, but since it's in 2D it simply looks... well, not right most of the time, IMO. I even think of the "shaky cam" effect during the ep. 1 fight of Bebop; even here it's all for style and really doesn't add a thing substance wise. I'll take NGE's carefully modulated static shots and editing patterns over Bebop's flashy but vacuous camera movement any day.

Lighting also goes to Bebop. Very stylized, very precise,

And very derivative of film noir and not original in the least. Again, I'll take NGE's much more subtle use of lighting whose expressive range is greater than Bebop's because it isn't so constantly noir-ish.

The way characters in the background would slowly get revealed in a shot by walking out from behind someone, or the person in the foreground moving out of frame to reveal other characters in the background, subliminally speaks to how some characters are constantly hiding behind other characters to avoid recognition.

Hmmm, that's quite insightful and something I'd never considered before. Thanks for that. :)

---------------------------------

One thing that definitely goes to Bebop's favor is that no one needs to make excuses for it.

Why is that something in its favor? Greatness usually DOES rely on context more, it usually does rely on a greater understanding on the audience's part. Steven King doesn't need excuses made for it, Shakespeare does, pop music doesn't, Stravinsky does (well, very much DID), Terminator doesn't, Citizen Kane does, etc. This also goes back to my point about Bebop being so SAFE and so EASY. NGE is NOT safe, it is NOT easy, it is incredibly challenging because it never pulls its punches and requests the same amount of effort from the viewers as put his passion and 'life' into making it. That's a lot to ask for, but, like most things in life, you get back what you put in. Bebop is the type of entertainment that just gives its audience everything on a silver platter requiring no work, effort, or thought. And since NGE demands more it delivers more; simple as that.

Sometimes with Eva, I get the feeling that you have to convince yourself to enjoy certain episodes like #4.

I never had to 'convince' myself to like it. Like I said, it's the most traditionally 'Eastern art' episode and for those like myself who already love Asian film it's perhaps the best ep. in the first half because it's all about silent and aesthetically sublime character development.

Movement is a very important aspect of cinematography, and Bebop clearly excels in that category.

Well, I covered this above, but I really see movement as a general weakness in anime. NGE is really the only anime I've seen to make full use of elements from film that fit right into anime such as Eisenstein's montage theory and Ozu's precise mise-en-scene and those Godardian ellipses.

but those moments came at a heavy price to the rest of the show.

Those moments came on the heels of very careful development which, without it, wouldn't have been nearly as impactful. I don't think most realize just how precise and brilliant NGE's first half is at establishing characters, relationships, narrative, mysteries, etc. and sewing so many various seeds that are reaped in the second half. Bebop didn't have this problem because of its episodic nature; having just one central storyline over, what, 3 or 4 eps.? NGE is building towards its climax(es) from the beginning and I think it provides plenty of entertainment for those first 13 eps. to keep the audience interested.

I guess I can also say here that I think NGE uses the mini-series format brilliantly. I think the mini-series is such an interesting format because it's essentially a marriage of the feature film and long-running series and that marriage means that it’s a hybrid that can draw from the strengths of both; you can take the lessons in storytelling economy and visual storytelling from film and the extra time for development and richness from long-running series and use them both to an even greater effect. There is simply NO mini-series – either animated or live-action – that better utilizes the format than NGE. It takes that extra time and really provides a mind-boggling richness that I find most films can’t touch, yet it has a cinematic sophistication that the vast majority of TV lacks.

but almost every second of it trumps the vast bulk of Eva.

Not if you care for substance over style.

I don't think I can honestly say that it's a better work than Bebop.

Hell, I could just on the ground that Bebop can’t touch the richness, depth, and complexity of NGE’s narrative, themes, characters, and form.

----------------------------------

That only means that Cowboy Bebop is a more accessible show. It doesn't mean it's better.

QFMFT; just like the examples I listed above. EDIT: lol, guess you also used one of my examples!

Evangelion prioritizes static framing and long shots for a good portion of the series.

Which makes those close-ups all the more like dramatic daggers. I remember a criticism of Battleship Potemkin said that Eisenstein used close-ups like weapons and I often think the same thing of NGE. Because Anno is usually more interested in hanging back and framing characters within an environment when those dramatic moments come and Anno finally goes in close it’s all the more intense. And just like match cut I discussed above his method for releasing tension is even better.

It's simply a stylistic difference that has nothing to do with superiority.

For me it’s not so much about style but substance and form. That’s why I always compare Bebop with Tarantino; the vast majority is there for style. With NGE it seems everything there adds to the substance, which is why a better cinematic comparison for NGE is the likes of Ozu, Eisenstein, Godard, and even Welles at times.

just about every frame in The End of Evangelion is a beautiful, perfect image in itself.

QFT. EoE is where Anno finally reaches Kubrick status.

In the words of an overrated, often obnoxious, yet sometimes perfectly on target film critic...

Great movies are rarely perfect movies.

In the vast majority of cases, if the 'flaws' in Eva were to be 'corrected', it would only take away from the greatness of the whole. What is perfection if the 'perfect', 'flawless' work has less affect than the flawed, ambitious work? Which is superior? Works are only ever great through ambition, and ambition leads to flaws being created. A work that is played very safe and sticks to the paths already travelled can much more easily become 'flawless', but it is, in a way, a dead work. Perfection is the realm of dead things. Life is messy. Flaws give a work room to breathe, an expanse of different interpretative possibilities, and a life of its own. This is why, as Eva Yojimbo has said, Evangelion, the ambitious, flawed work, will be relevant in decades to come, while Cowboy Bebop, a safe, but 'perfect' work, will fade into obscurity.

QFMFT AGAIN! Geez, I could’ve just quoted your post Chrad and saved myself the time! But this is as perfect an argument as could be given on this particular subject. Perhaps the only example of perfect film that’s also a transcendent work of art is Kubrick’s 2001. I also fully understand why many despise it and see it not just as flawed but one giant flaw. But when I say it’s perfect I mean that for what Kubrick wanted to express and how he wanted to express it it simply couldn’t have been better. Every complaint made against it always comes from very biased perspectives who want every film to fit into a certain identifiable mode that suits them, and they dislike 2001 because it doesn’t. Much the same could be said for NGE, though I generally find it more flawed than 2001, but that’s probably why I find NGE better because it didn’t have to sacrifice warmth and humanity to be a profound exploration of humanity like 2001 did.

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Yes, NGE's soundtrack is redolent of '60s camp,

I wouldn’t go that far. I actually think NGE’s best moments are the more meditative, ‘mind-fuck’ compositions. But its battle action music can be a tad… OTT.

for Bebop -- I only saw the movie, and recall the ludicrously inappropriate soundtrack from that, which at once point had the audience burst out in uncomfortable guffaws.

Hmmm, that’s rather odd. I’ve never heard a bad word about Bebop’s jazz OST. I think it actually turned a lot of people on to jazz who would’ve never otherwise been interested. I know it, along with Escaflowne, made me a die-hard fan of Yoko Kanno.

Episode 4 is the big flag that we're fucking with the tropes here, and you're not supposed to think that the lead character is a hero, or even particularly likeable.

Indeed, which is why it’s brilliant (well, that and my other above arguments).

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the fusion of the music and the visuals in Bebop creates an aesthic that I believe is second to none.

I actually slightly prefer Kanno’s own Escaflowne, but probably because I enjoy classical more than jazz and fantasy more than sci-fi… Escaflowne also has a lot of personal sentiment attached to it, though I think Bebop is a better series overall (Esca falls a part a bit at the end while Bebop ends on its strongest note).

that "Pop Avant Grade" my friend Patrick talks about, the way he uses genre tropes as the basis for all his crazy ideas and symbolism and what not.

I’ll have to check out Grant Morrison (and The Invisibles). From your talk he sounds a bit like the beat generation writers or someone like Pekar/Crumb.

I hope that made sense >_>

Perfect sense, and this really is more of a matter of taste. I guess I just see much more ambition and brilliance in NGE that I completely miss in Bebop. I don’t think it’s a matter of opinion that NGE is a much more sophisticated and challenging work, but, then again, Bebop is the kind of entertainment that’s well made and appeals to everyone; which certainly is a great achievement in and of itself. I often said that one of the marks of a true artist is the ability to appeal to the masses as well as the learned elite; because while the former is easier to please it’s harder to please them all (because there’s so many) and while the latter is harder to please, there’s less of them. That’s why I think someone like Shakespeare, Hitchcock, or Mozart are such geniuses because they’ve managed to bridge that divide and appeal to people on both sides. Bebop and NGE do that to an extent; but Bebop lies more on the ‘pop mass’ side and NGE more on the ‘elite’ side.

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Geez, just let the guy say what he thinks without telling him he's doing it wrong. Bebop vs. Eva is a matter of opinion, not a statement of fact, and you can't argue with an opinion without looking like an elitist douchebag.

When arguments fall to relativism, discusses ceases. Yes, everyone recognizes art is by and large a matter of opinion and taste, yet throughout the past few thousand years we have formed things called standards that we tend to hold art to, even as epochal shifts often signal the denial of old standards and the creation of new ones (modernism was all about this). But art can still be discussed based on these standards, like we’re doing now in comparing Bebop and NGE’s cinematographic qualities. I simply find that NGE succeeds on these standards to a greater degree than Bebop, and I think I’ve amply argued my ‘opinion’.

[Mr. Tines]

@Eva Yojimbo re Bebop movie soundtrack

A few minutes with Google gets me that it was the track "Pushing the Sky" that served to break the mood and lead to sniggering in the cheap seats by being so completely out of place in the middle of an aerial combat/car-chase scene.