Eva Kids

[The Invincible Shinji]

I'm A/S but i'm not against S/R. I think its possible for Asuka and Shinji to have a relationship its just not gonna be something out of a Disney fairytale, hardly anything in Eva is but EoE gives them some hope. They both have personality quirks that disgust the other yet there seems to still be somekind of relationship there possibly love, maybe they can help each other its just gonna take some time, what else besides time do they really have?

[SaltyJoe]

Last time i checked in this thread, Reichu was showing her Angel and Eva related fan art. Since then, it has become way more creepy (referring to all the gender bending and stuff).

[The Invincible Shinji]

Last time i checked in this thread, Reichu was showing her Angel and Eva related fan art. Since then, it has become way more creepy (referring to all the gender bending and stuff).

Yeah its creepy in here. A male Asuka, a female Shinji, a female Kaworu, now we just need a female Kaji and a male Misato (if that hasn't been brought up already).

[Oedipusfoot]

Eh okay, you not vomiting at it is good enough for me... And just out of curiosity what parts about A/S threw you off, they might not be my favorite shipping, but I think they make a rather good and realistic, angst couple

Yeah, EveShinji isn't anything strange. It's just mainstream things like Retake that freak me out.

Asuka and Shinji: Honestly I haven't considered the pairing, because I'm not really into that. I think about their character interactions as they appear in the show, but I don't go beyond that. What makes me cringe at A/S is that I don't like Asuka's character. I don't like how she deals with Shinji, I don't like such a stereotypically angst couple. I don't think it would work out or be beneficial to Shinji, as Kaworu would (yep, I'm on the same page with you on that) be. Shinji and Asuka can't extend themselves to understand others outside of themselves so how could they ever be in a relationship? They are children. They are incapable of understanding or improving each other. Sure, there are fics and doujinshi where these sorts of things are made up for, but it's not natural and it would take a lot (a lot) of work. I've gone over this elsewhere (or maybe just in my head), but Shinji needs someone who can give and understand. Anything like that from Asuka would be terribly OOC.

Please do so! I really would love some original artwork on that family. I know they contrast a great deal in looks, but some Artists have managed depictions of their family and children while avoiding the clone problem.

I couldn't get past that clone problem. In a weak attempt, I created a black haired Kaworu face. As an excuse I'll say that Kaworu and Shinji have the exact opposite features. Kaworu has a long, thin face, longer eyes, with a stronger chin than Shinji's. Shinji has a rounded face with wide blue eyes. White hair, black hair, red eyes, blue eyes, they have very different appearances.

Oh, and thanks for posting some pictures of the KaworuShin kids from the extensive Collection of Synapsid. Heh heh. I can't say I'm too much into the femji but I'm behind the premise of the grand idea (heh heh).

[Mr. Tines]

Yeah, EveShinji isn't anything strange. It's just mainstream things like Retake that freak me out.

QFMFT

>Asuka and Shinji: ... such a stereotypically angst couple.
Our models of Asuka are very different

>I don't think it would work out or be beneficial to Shinji,
But this I can agree with.

>Shinji and Asuka can't extend themselves to understand others outside of themselves so how could they ever be in a relationship?

Kaji's little speech to Shinji in ep 18 comes to mind here, much as it pains me to say it.

>but Shinji needs someone who can give and understand.
They both do, which is why

>Anything like that from Asuka would be terribly OOC.

I couldn't get past that clone problem. In a weak attempt, I created a black haired Kaworu face.

There are some amusing shoops out there of the scene in GoS with Mana wandering around the apartment in just a towel, where she's been given Kaworu's hair and eye colour. The resemblance is remarkable.

[The Invincible Shinji]

Sometimes angsty couples work out it just takes time. We don't know how their time in instrumentality in EoE changed their view on each other, and you shouldn't ignore what the narrative is hinting at just because you don't like what it implies, Asuka and Shinji is an importent part of the story that's just the way it is.

[Synapsid]

Last time i checked in this thread, Reichu was showing her Angel and Eva related fan art. Since then, it has become way more creepy (referring to all the gender bending and stuff).

But we’re talking about Kaworu and Shinji having kids, and the only way besides femKaworu not being sterile is to make one of them female. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with bringing Kaworu into the children discussion, after all they are a notable pair, and Shinji’s relation with Kaworu was a significant element (even if it wasn’t a key theme like it is with Asuka)...

As for the occasional mention when dealing with Asuka or Rei, I’m sorry it’s just me giving out my preferences: I think Asuka/Shinji would work out better as a Yaoi or Yuri couple, no realy; a good part of their problems come from the fact that Asuka has a conflicted stance on what she wants from Shinji in terms of gender roles, and towards him being effeminate, If Asuka was a boy or Shinji were female the gender role conflict wouldn’t be present in the same intensity...I think...

And I really liked Reichu’s art and stories, but I don’t think my genben fagotry was enough to scare her away.

[The Invincible Shinji]

I think Asuka/Shinji would work out better as a Yaoi or Yuri couple, no realy; a good part of their problems come from the fact that Asuka has a conflicted stance on what she wants from Shinji in terms of gender roles, and towards him being effeminate

That actually makes sense. I've often wondered what would happen if their sexes were ever switched, maybe they would come to an understanding. Though i still think they did in EoE, but its something to think about.

[NemZ]

a good part of their problems come from the fact that Asuka has a conflicted stance on what she wants from Shinji in terms of gender roles

Gender roles have very little to do with it. It might play out differently in the details, but their real problems all stem from their incompatible defense mechanisms and you can't change those without making the characters completely unrecognizable.

[Timstuff]

Is there any reason why she couldn't grow up as an blend of those two, I do certainly see the parallels she has with Ritsuko though, Asuka chasing after Kaji when he clearly didn't have any interest seems like a more childish version of Ritsuko's service towards Gendo, even though she really knew he cared nothing for her...of course she finally had enough and took vengeance upon him, but that seems Asuka enough... Though would this make Shinji a male Maya?

Well, there are some key differences... Kaji never took advantage of Asuka's immaturity, and always seemed to have her best interest in mind. Gendo on the other hand actually did take advantage of Ritsuko, and aside from the occasional booty call she was just an expendable lackey. Kaji actually did seem to care about Asuka in an older brother / fatherly way, so at least that's something Asuka has in her favor over Ritsuko. Kaji may have been "the wrong kind of man," but at least he wasn't a cold and evil bastard. Asuka is fortunate in that the bad boy she was lusting after wasn't actually a bad guy.

[BattleMonkey]

The problem I see is so many still just assume that characters will remain as they are in the show and never actually grow or progress in any manner. Just the events of the series and especially of the third impact itself would likely have life altering properties.

So much was slammed into these characters at the end that it would be a breaking point, for better or worse. After everything that was said and done in EoE and the end of the TV series, and these characters got nothing out of it, then that's an extremely harsh way to look at things. The characters have learned a lot of the truths and realities of their lives coming out of third impact, and it's that which brings them hope. Just look at Asuka, whose sole source of her "angst" and focus was completely wrong and shown to her, she never really was abandoned and we saw what it did to her when she found out the truth finally.

I just can't imagine that after it all that people would expect that the characters would simply grow up to be larger versions of the same exact person?

[The Invincible Shinji]

I couldn't have said it better. It is a bleak outlook to think they would never change, the final scene could imply that Asuka's already trying to change. I guess there was something to be learned by everyone after all.

[Timstuff]

I agree. Storytelling is typically about either the purification or punishment of a set of characters, and the way I see it, Evangelion is about a group of people that were so messed up that they needed giant cyborgs and apocalyptic events to be straightened out. For better or for worse, the characters in Evangelion are going to be different after the end. The question is, was the point of the show to punish the characters for their inadequacies, or set them onto the path of recovery?

[Incisivis]

Well...Shinji and Asuka's canonical characterizations *are* the foundation that we work from. Otherwise it's just fannish speculation.

I'd argue that Shinji and Asuka wouldn't exactly reman *static*, just that they wouldn't shed enough of their teenage-year issues to be a healthy couple, because what you were before influences what you are now.

But on the other hand, I don't like Shinji being paired with a theoretical "anti-Asuka" who is maternal, because you don't form a romantic relationship with someone to "nurture" them; you do it because you find them fun to be around. Which is simplistic, but it's simply difficult for me to see a romantic relationship based on one party "nurturing" the other to be healthy. That's a power differential more appropriate to parent/child relationships

Which is one of my long-time objections to K/S, I suppose. That, and while it's possible to fill in the blanks with Kaworu, it might not feel as satisfying as having a more established personality to work from.

Which Webuild might change, but...Kaworu being a less than idealized person (which he surely must become if given a more detailed personality) just wouldn't be Kaworu anymore, at least not the original anime!Kaworu that most all of us think about.

[BattleMonkey]

I don't doubt that the kids would still have issues for many years, they have dealt with some seriously traumatic issues, but as I already noted, I think major aspect of the series was all about moving forward and accepting who you are and the world around you. The endings were largely about self reflection, putting it all on the table and facing the music. Shinji especially went through a major life lesson in rejecting the instrumentality and really showed that Shinji could change.

As the final scene of EoE is titled "I need you", the characters have a huge step to make of just becoming close in friendship, and just doing that would be a big change in their lives. I don't think the show ever was trying to go for a single "romantic" angle with anyone, and merely was about the sheer needing of others. If the two can simply get past their basic defense mechanisms to accept each other and open up, and be truthful finally, it would be a major healing moment for both the young kids lives.

[Synapsid]

@The Invincible Shinji Yes, yes I really do think so, although you all know I'm biased
@Mr. Tines...I should clarify, I can't say they are stereotypical angst couple, their relation’s just to weird to describe... and does this mean you aren’t against Kawo/Eveshin

Yeah, EveShinji isn't anything strange. It's just mainstream things like Retake that freak me out.

Okay, but I don’t think Retake was necessarily bad even if it was sort of a simplification of EVA and involved OOC, it managed to make itself seem plausible. Although granted Asuka and Shinji having constant sex really couldn’t have good results, but it was supposed to be a H doujin and fit it in quite well with the plot so it’s understandable...

What makes me cringe at A/S is that I don't like Asuka's character. I don't like how she deals with Shinji, I don't like such a stereotypically angst couple. I don't think it would work out or be beneficial to Shinji, as Kaworu would (yep, I'm on the same page with you on that) be. Shinji and Asuka can't extend themselves to understand others outside of themselves so how could they ever be in a relationship? They are children. They are incapable of understanding or improving each other. Sure, there are fics and doujinshi where these sorts of things are made up for, but it's not natural and it would take a lot (a lot) of work.

Yes, I understand that all, I did use to like that pair, but honestly the problems you mentioned just seem to abort a relation…I don’t know, I guess they just have an unfortunate habit of unintentionally hurting each other, which is sad as they really do have a common background and theme.

But as they are I don’t doubt that Kaworu would be the only one Shinji could have a constructive relation with, the other pilots are psychologically crippled with their own problems, and dealing with them results in a sharing of illnesses, not any mutual support, or acceptance of Shinji’s problems. Kaworu never showed any preconceived ideas of how Shinji should act and worked to help Shinji’s problems, but unlike Misato’s attempts it wasn’t forced.

I couldn't get past that clone problem. In a weak attempt, as an excuse I'll say that Kaworu and Shinji have the exact opposite features

Oh, and thanks for posting some pictures of the KaworuShin kids from the extensive Collection of Synapsid. Heh heh. I can't say I'm too much into the femji but I'm behind the premise of the grand idea (heh heh).

It’s fine, my request was selfish, and seeing as how most artists can’t get around the clone factor it would be unreasonable to have you find a solution in 12 hours. Do agree that they contrast (quite nicely) in their looks, and it isn’t just in facial structure: Kaworu’s build is leaner and more angular as a whole, with broader shoulders and all, while Shinji’s got a more feminine/petite build with thin shoulders, a narrow waist and slight curves...So blending all of it can’t be simple especially if you’re trying to make a compromise of all their features, although I’m told Ōri from Shikabane looks like a KaworuShinji hybrid.

I guess a reason behind femmeShinji/Kaworu is it seems to add more permanence and completion to their relation, especially if there’s a kid involved, and Shinji already had a female role in the relation so nothing has to be changed. And with some fujoshi, projection may also be a motivation... And Femji sounds funny I hope you don’t mind if I use it

Gender roles have very little to do with it. It might play out differently in the details, but their real problems all stem from their incompatible defense mechanisms and you can't change those without making the characters completely unrecognizable.

No, I think it would even if it doesn't seem like that: Asuka does want Shinji to take the initiative in terms of intimacy, she's certainly upset that he "won't even hold" her, but paradoxically she wants to establish her dominance over him, especially in public matters... Magma diver showed her frustrations in that respect, Shinji didn't take her bait, and never made the move.
If Asuka were a boy, he'd have no reason to expect Shin to make the first move, or cede the initiative to him, Asuka would just act on what he wants, and Shinji would reciprocate. [URL=http://s528.photobucket.com/albums/dd325/Synapsidia/EVA/?action=view&current=12156516851791.png][/URL]
You'd also have a similar result if they were both female, Asuka would have no reason to expect Shinji to make the first move.
Although I don't think Oskar/Shin(ji)ko would work out as well, It might tilt some of the details in their relation in a favorable manner, but It could just as easily exaggerate everything that works wrong with them...I don't think a School days ending is far fetched

... you don't form a romantic relationship with someone to "nurture" them; you do it because you find them fun to be around. Which is simplistic, but it's simply difficult for me to see a romantic relationship based on one party "nurturing" the other to be healthy. That's a power differential more appropriate to parent/child relationships
Which is one of my long-time objections to K/S, I suppose. That, and while it's possible to fill in the blanks with Kaworu, it might not feel as satisfying as having a more established personality to work from.
Which Webuild might change, but...Kaworu being a less than idealized person (which he surely must become if given a more detailed personality) just wouldn't be Kaworu anymore, at least not the original anime!Kaworu that most all of us think about.

I don’t think Kawo/Shin is only maternal, or that Kaworu has nothing to directly gain from it: by what we see Kaworu has very little knowledge of society, or direct experience outside of the EVA, he hasn’t lived a complete life, but having Shinji around could easily change that besides Shinji’s a great cook and cellist. And allready from 24 we can sort of tell that Kaworu isn’t as Ideal as he seems, he may well be manipulative and deceitful in a subtle manner, but he does it all in such a pleasant way I don’t think Shinji would care so long as he can continue in all the positive elements.

[The Invincible Shinji]

@The Invincible Shinji Yes, yes I really do think so, although you all know I'm biased

I'm biased too mainly when it comes to A/S, though it would be interesting to see a gender swap between the two. Asuka and Shinji's relationship is hard to put in words after everything they've been through but that doesn't mean they can't end up together, its just not going to be easy.

Well...Shinji and Asuka's canonical characterizations *are* the foundation that we work from. Otherwise it's just fannish speculation.

I agree but so is the argument that there's no hope for them to be together as EoE never stated it one way or the other

[Timstuff]

If Shinji and Asuka were in a relationship, I'd say that for it to work they'd probably end up meeting each other somewhere in the middle. Asuka would have to accept that Shinji is not a hyper-macho bad ass, and Shinji would have to accept that he has to take initiative every now and then instead of expecting Asuka to all the time. Shinji appears to be more comfortable handling domestic duties than Asuka, so he would probably end up wearing the homemaker hat for the most part, especially since Asuka probably would have an easy time getting a good paying career with her intellect. If Shinji's going to be spending more time at home though, then he could at least light some candles and put on some music when Asuka gets home.

The problem is not that Shinji and Asuka's gender roles are backwards-- the problem is that they both have deficiencies, and until they resolve those they won't really be able to have a solid relationship with anyone. As I've said though, I'm an optimist, so I think it's something that they will be able to get past once they've had time to mature. Shinji's not going to magically find a girl who doesn't care if he never initiates romance (unless she's got some serious issues of her own), and Asuka is not going to find a Mr. Right who is devoid of weakness yet voluntarily surrenders authority to her. They've both got problems, and they both have to work on them.

[Mr. Tines]

the fact that Asuka has a conflicted stance on what she wants from Shinji in terms of gender roles

The conflict is more between expectations that other pilots would be like her -- expecting a genius alpha male to whom sweet surrender would be no dishonour -- and the reality that what's on offer got hauled out of the bottom of the heap. Gender roles don't come into it; status roles do.

I don’t think my genben fagotry was enough to scare her away

Reichu is suffering a lack of internet connectivity ATM.

does this mean you aren’t against Kawo/Eveshin

Not in the same sense that I am a notorious anti-shipper of A/S -- just that it's not even a pairing you can get if you take the usual "Nothing significant happened after episode 24" cop-out. Besides, I'm more inclined to promote Asuka/Kaworu.

I don't like Shinji being paired with a theoretical "anti-Asuka" who is maternal, because you don't form a romantic relationship with someone to "nurture" them; you do it because you find them fun to be around.

Serious "Earth Mother" types most likely have their own issues as well. It wouldn't be an Eva style relationship if a girl taking Shinji under her wing didn't have her own issues. You could see it as a codependency, but more a symbiosis than the vampiric codependency of any even partially plausible S/A; and one more likely to normalize over time.

[Timstuff]

Well then it all comes down to what you think is better for Shinji in the long run: someone like Asuka who will require him to take a more proactive role in the relationship, or someone who's willing to "mother" him, but will likely cause a whole new set of problems. No matter who Shinji ends up with, he's not going to be very successful if his idea of a relationship is simply waiting for the girl to come on to him. In a healthy relationship, it shouldn't be left up to just one partner to send out signals.

And that's just the intimacy side of things! There's a lot more to a healthy relationship than just that, and if Shinji is going to expect his spouse to simply run the house while he mopes around waiting to be told what to do, he is not going to be fairly sharing the burden of running a household and family.