Evangelion: Pretentiously deep?

[BrikHaus]

I remember this thread. It's where Jimbo and I first began our epic deathmatch.

Eva itself isn't pretentious, just some of the more vocal fans are.

I know, Trigger, I'm a big help.

[Skullraper]

I’m sure quite a few people here have trouble objectively discussing this. After all, none of us would be here if we had reason to hate Evangelion. I’ll take a whack at it though. Considering the low standards of entertainment these days Evangelion seems classy and sophisticated almost by default. Arguments that it’s pretentious and shallow derive mostly from subjective opinion (in my opinion).

I don’t mean to sound self-righteous, but anyone of adequate intelligence could procure endless meaning from Evangelion by virtue of it’s ambiguous, raw introspections into the human mind. This characteristic of the show forces the viewer to contemplate within themselves in an attempt to reconcile what they’re seeing. Through this method Evangelion becomes quite a stirring learning experience. I’m baffled by the statement that Eva is static. Evangelion lovers can be just as subjective of course.

However, I don’t believe Evangelion haters are being reasonable. I suspect most of them simply don’t want to expend the energy to think about the show and are thus frustrated by it. Anyone who outright hates something that has obvious merit is being rather pig-headed. Few (who are familiar) could argue against the influence Eva has had. In fact, many would call it a modern masterpiece of animation and writing. As an example, I don’t like Star Trek and frankly I think it’s a terrible attempt at science fiction. Yet I would never objectively make the argument that it doesn’t have merit and influence, even though I could right an essay on how much I dislike it.

Works similar to Eva get a similar treatment from haters. I believe it derives from people wanting instant gratification from everything. Many people have an innate fear of questioning. As a result of this fear and frustration they accuse works like Evangelion of being meaningless fluff meant to make nerds feel smart when in fact the work in question has infinite meaning and learning potential to those who can derive it. People who hate Evangelion simply do not understand the reasoning of people who love it.

With this in mind I find it unnecessary to try to understand an Eva haters reasoning unless they can put forward a more objective statement than “it’s pedantic, meaningless, and contrived”. As someone who actually derives meaning and enjoyment from Eva I simply disagree with their argument.

Hope I stayed as objective as possible (not easy to do).

[Trigger's Elysium]

Yeah you got the right idea.

I just need some specifics from the show.

[UrsusArctos]

NGE's been out there for a long enough time, and when something gets too popular for too long (And stays as a craze without anything like a sequel or a continuation coming out) people will start hating it. Star Wars had the even better The Empire Strikes Back and the rather disappointing Return of the Jedi to shore it up, and American moviegoers got themselves the Indiana Jones movies too. Combine it with merchandising and a vast expanded universe, and the Star Wars series was able to fade away gracefully until the prequels returned.

Titanic, on the other hand, became a craze and since there was nothing more to talk about apart from a single movie, people began to find it fashionable to hate.

NGE has its manga and the more recent DVD releases, but since there's been a sort of intellectual gap between its original incarnation and now, there's been space for haters to breed. If anything, the massive intellectualism behind NGE has kept it at a real high even years after its original airing, while far less cerebral works like Titanic are torpedoed.

But a gap remains a gap. Most diehard NGE haters are probably just former fans fed up with the hype and disappointed with the end of the whole thing. Unlike the Imperialist, we can't force people to like something they can't. Now that Rebuild is out, we should see what effect it has on the NGE-hating community. Rebuild is something way above George Lucas' recent work, so unless Anno pulls a "Greedo shot first", I shouldn't be seeing too much hate out there.

[Eva Yojimbo]

everything else is too because it's static and doesn't go anywhere.

I could disprove that quite easily with how the hand or glasses motif progresses.

The allegory you find here and there, does that really mean anything for an anime primarily focused on the psyches of it's characters?

That's rather like saying what does the metaphor about a bird in the hand have anything to do with the bush... In an allegory, the narrative - and by extension, the characters - are only one aspect. There is more relevance beyond that and, more accurately, what is expressed through them and how.

I remember this thread. It's where Jimbo and I first began our epic deathmatch.

Awwwww heck Brik, this ain't nothin. Now, I've had some real slobberknockers with some folks online. I didn't even love tap you on here.... boy this brought back some memories though. :) (lol, I'm really annoying)

Eva itself isn't pretentious, just some of the more vocal fans are.

Just so nobody can ever accuse me of pretentiousness:

I'm a complete nobody, who steals idiots' money for a living, sits on a computer all day, has no real social life, and is a music/film geek. I claim no more, no less. :)

Considering the low standards of entertainment these days Evangelion seems classy and sophisticated almost by default. Arguments that it’s pretentious and shallow derive mostly from subjective opinion (in my opinion).

I'm someone who has rather high standards when it comes to film and anime. Not that I can't enjoy mindless entertainment for what it is (it's junk food), but one does tire of eating nothing but snickers. However, I also have great respect for film as an art-form, and as someone who holds so many "classics" in such high regard, even with those standards NGE seems classy and sophisticated. In fact, even then NGE still offers something quite unlike anything else that is as equally intellectual as it is emotional.

Evangelion lovers can be just as subjective of course.

It's hard to recognize the line between subjective and objective opinion. I can vaguely recognize my own when it comes to NGE. I know my deep connection to the characters, my childlike love for science-fiction, my love for its "WTF" elements, and such are all very subjective elements. However, NGE also does so much objectively right, that the high praise I give it isn't solely based merely on personal bias.

I suspect most of them simply don’t want to expend the energy to think about the show and are thus frustrated by it. Anyone who outright hates something that has obvious merit is being rather pig-headed.

That's been my experience with many, though not all, who really dislike it.

I believe it derives from people wanting instant gratification from everything. Many people have an innate fear of questioning. As a result of this fear and frustration they accuse works like Evangelion of being meaningless fluff meant to make nerds feel smart when in fact the work in question has infinite meaning and learning potential to those who can derive it. People who hate Evangelion simply do not understand the reasoning of people who love it.

Well stated. And I don't want those types to assume that we (or atleast I) think all works of this type (that require thought) are deep. It's very easy to slip into pretentiousness. To name two, I think Lynch's Lost Highway does this (and I love Lynch), as well as Aronofsky's The Fountain (which I love to death, but tries to shoot for more than it ultimately is).

With this in mind I find it unnecessary to try to understand an Eva haters reasoning unless they can put forward a more objective statement than “it’s pedantic, meaningless, and contrived”.

I would request they put forth an argument for their propositions rather than just the propositions themselves. That might make a good start.

[mrpanda]

Pretentiously deep, i had to look it up lol, well im not going to pretend that i know a lot about the series as ive watched the english version twice (dont hate me im getting the dvd soonish) even so it still had great meaning to me, i was pretty depressed when i decided to watch it for the second time and only watched it again because i had nothing else to watch at the time. The first time i watched the series i confused the crap outta me and i read somewhere that the last two episodoes were shit so i finished without watching the last two not realising that these were crutial to understanding the series.

Where was i, oh yea it was the depressed thing. Well i was pretty down when i started rewatching it, a lot of the stuff that was going through my head was the same as that of Shinji throughout the series and this is why the series clicked this time as im sure it has with many other people, now i think it has to be pretty deep to be able to encompass so many human emotions that are acturally true to many people and to than build a story around these emotions is quite incredible.

Of course the best part was EoTV when i finnally got to watching it as it contained so many truths about people and it was something i learned from personally and it helped a lot with the way i was feeling at the time. I believe that something that can connect so much to people emotionally and understand people so well cannot be called pretentious as it really is quite deep.

I also agree with several people on this thread (i cant remember names sorry)that the sci fi stuff was just an addon to the emotional meaning of the story, to give it more shape i suppose and put it in a more understandable context, of course what needs to be remembered is that Anno probubly wanted people to fanwank and try and explain every little detail (like starwars or startrek for example) as this would draw more people into his series and give him a good fan base to support future work. This still does not draw from the fact that it is a piece of art and was desined to make people think even if he did add some of the giant robot stuff in to make money he still wanted to share and and express his feelings with the world and was in that aspect a true artist.


That was a little bit of a long ramble i think and since it was my first really long post here, feel free to pick it appart as i need to learn really although if you can make sense of it good job lol.

For anyone who cant be bothered to read that my answer is no i dont think it is pretentious.

[Evangelion217]

I'm amazed that some of the so-called "Eva" fans on this thread, have called this wonderful gem "pretentious." I thought you guys would be better then that.

The word "pretentious" is a farse to me. It's like anything that differs from the norm, or doesn't fall under any conventional way of storytelling, will be called "pretentious." It's an inept word, that is used by people who think they know what their talking about.

"Evangelion" is not pretentious. It's a ground-breaking achievement in originality, and an incredible work of art. And like most great art, it changes the form of it's genre, and completely seperates itself from the norm. Does that make it pretentious?? No. Anno isn't saying, "Look at me, look at me! I'm special! I'm changing things! I have philosophy babble going on in my series! That makes it art! So I'am an ARTIST!" I never felt that from him. What I got is a man who wanted to express his views, feelings, and emotions through his art. And he succeeded in every possible way. And the things that he expressed, are the same things that were going through my head, before I ever saw this series. I was actually watching my own thoughts, and feelings getting expressed through the characters of "NGE." I'v never experienced anything quite like it.

If that's "pretentious" to some of you, then you're just being lame.

[chee]

The word "pretentious" is a farse to me. It's like anything that differs from the norm, or doesn't fall under any conventional way of storytelling, will be called "pretentious." It's an inept word, that is used by people who think they know what their talking about.

Quoted for truth and sigged.

[BobBQ]

It's an inept word, that is used by people who think they know what their talking about.

Congratulations: you've just perfectly summed up CitizenGeek, formerly our favorite user of the word. When I first saw this topic, I for some reason thought I'd find some of his old posts in it.

[Eva Yojimbo]

Lol, everytime I think this thread is dead and I've forgotten about it it's bumped and I get remember just how fun it all was. I posted some doozies in this one! Appreciate the thoughts mj. Pretentious is obviously one of, if not THE most abused and misused words by the mentally lazy. A way to denigrate anything different and anything they don't understand.

[PartyHard]

Eva itself isn't pretentious, just some of the more vocal fans are.

This.

zomg look at this gratuitous random religious symbolism nonsense, its soooo DEEP!!1

[TheAyanamiOtaku]

Like what EoTV and Eva217 struck hard, people don't like the unknown. They fear it and back away and choose to easily push it away than accept or analyze it. It comes from the early-age conditioning in school and in movies of ultimate good, ultimate evil, static positions/opinions, and not talking to all strangers. Strangers represent the unknown to children, and most parents lecture children not to communicate with them.

Would this set children up for the rest of their lives to relate new knowledge and unfamiliarities as what parents wanted them to regard strangers?

and also: parents doting on children leave the children with less initiative and laziness and a manipulative nature. but the 1st effect is the one in question. the nurturing impulse that mothers have give children that loss of interest and initiative, which makes them more susceptible to accepting knowledge without wanting to question or analyze. Coupled with early exposure to 2-dimensional characters in media, and you will have somebody that wants to have everything laid out in front of him/her. And when things are hidden, they reject everything associated with the anomaly to "protect" themselves.

Am I making any sense to anyone? I might be assuming a little too much and not calculating other factors, such as a traumatic experience in childhood or something like that...

[Eva Yojimbo]

zomg look at this gratuitous random religious symbolism nonsense,

Every time I read this same crap over and over I have the urge to go out, murder someone, and then spend several days working over a huge essay on the significance of the religious symbolism that would make everyone shut up about this "gratuitous nonsense", "there to look cool" crap.... and then I remember I have a life.

which makes them more susceptible to accepting knowledge without wanting to question or analyze.

There was a great article that showed through empirical data that's it's easier to accept something than it is to question and/or deny it. It has to do with how our brains are wired; to simply accept what we see and hear as "truth". However, in our complex system of subjective ideas it's harder to consider something and then reject it, or to consider it and not know about its truth. It goes to show just how much of a victim man still is to how we are wired.

Am I making any sense to anyone? I might be assuming a little too much and not calculating other factors, such as a traumatic experience in childhood or something like that...

You're making sense, except it does have much more to it than simply how children are raised. From an early age our brains begin processing information and setting up walls, barriers, and locks to "the way things are". These accepted truths become ingrained and don't need to be questioned, because to question them would require questioning the very base our thoughts, ideas, and beliefs stand on, and it's not a fun thing to always question one's existence and truths. At the same time we allow ourselves gates, or places where we allow ideas to enter and perhaps change us. People's internal gates and walls obviously differ.

But going even further, the entire idea of xenophobia can be looked at from an evolutionary POV. It makes sense that early man would be fearful of anything out of the ordinary, anything it didn't understand, because these unknowns could be a threat to their existence. It's a defense mechanism. And it effects people even today. The unknown makes people nervous because it's like someone taking a drill to those walls we've built up. What's happened over time is an almost conscious tearing down of these walls, and it always happens very slowly when we realize that our often archaic survival instincts simply clash with modern society. This can be seen from everything from art, to the attitude against homosexuals.

[TheAyanamiOtaku]

This can be seen from everything from accepting new, unorthodox styles of art as art...

Fixed?

[Eva Yojimbo]

Fixed?

I don't know if people have a problem accepting art as art, but accepting new art as substantial art. Which is kinda an oxymoron since it's more up to the audience to determine what art is substantial than it is the medium. Not that the medium doesn't have a responsibility to present itself maturely... But yes, people are slow to adapt, and that's why comics, animation, and video games are still looked at as "lesser art" despite the fact that there are works in all of them that have as much substance to offer as any great art.

[IrkenEvangelion]

My family still don't get the concept of this. They see it as just a cartoon, and I always try to argue that, it is a deep peice of work that you can reflect your life to and find out more about yourself. But it's like talking to a brick wall with them. But thanks to your essay, Yojimbo, they might actually grasp this concept. But they have yet to read it.

[Eva Yojimbo]

It's the same way with mine. It's a perfect illustration of setting up mental brick walls, even with something as silly as art. If you grow up with a culture that says "comics and cartoons are for kids" it's bound to create that bias. I can't tell you how many people I've told about NGE and Watchmen or Sandman and people will say "but it's a cartoon/comic, right?" The sad part is that this kind of thinking creates a very dangerous possibility of having some of the greatest works of our time completely ignored and forgotten not because of their lack of quality but because of mass ignorance and preconceptions, which is why I do my damndest to get people who wouldn't normally do so to PAY ATTENTION!

[stderr]

I thought EoTV was a bit pseudo intellectual because the last two episodes seemed completely disorganized. They should have followed some kind of rational process that ended in congratulations, instead, until 5 minutes before the end, it seemed that Shinji hadn't made any progress.

I just watched NGE for the first time, bought the set about a week or so ago. After only one viewing, I would say that the whole thing was genuinely intellectual and contains good depth, there is as about as much to reflect upon as there is in Lain: Serial Experiments, or Ghost in the Shell, or say, Perfect Blue.

NGE is a tender-yet-frank view of growing up, especially through times of despair, and depression, as another poster noted. I have heard at least once there is a problem among many Japanese youth, who grow up under tremendous pressure to perform, to achieve, to excel, that school is 6 or 7 days a week, that only through stiff academic competition can a successful adult life be acquired. And that all this tremendous social pressure is just the tip of the iceberg, and that this pressure begins at very young age, compared to kids in America, where children are kept in little "bubbles" of juvenility and magically are to become men and women at 18. I've heard of the yearly gatherings of bodies around Fuji, that teenage suicide is almost epidemic. Such crushing societal pressure upon very very young adults seems to be latent in the story of NGE.

I just finished the last episode tonight, and I must say it seemed rather anti-climatic, albeit a happy, and sensible enough ending. But the ending did seem to jump right out of 25 episodes of dark, deep and intruging plot, into a much happier place, as though it were a joyous waking from a long nightmare. And though surprised, I am somewhat pleased to have a happy ending with it. I am almost terminally used to learning to deal with endings such as in Cowboy Bebop and Berserk.

I'll have to give it a 10/10 after first viewing, but only because I did the equivalent of watching it twice by watching most episodes once in Engrish and once in Nihongo, to compare the subs and dubs (which are quite different in places). I cannot say I am disappointed with any of it, though the pace of the production is almost unbearably fast for reading subtitles and listening in Nihongo, which is my first desire.

Oh. Hello. I'm new to EvaGeeks.org. I am an American male, over 50, turned on to anime about 10 years ago. Also, I've long been endeared to Japan, our Japanese friends, their history and culture. Eva Yojimbo thought I might enjoy coming here and visiting about this fine work in anime, which I h ave only belatedly viewed for the first time.

Kanpai

-

PS. I would not accuse it of pedantry nor would I call it pretentious. If someone graciously explained the theory of relativity to a group of people, some might be tempted to call it pedantic, or pretentious, but some of us would be grateful for the enlightenment and stimulation of thought it might bring to us, and never think of it in a negative way. The story did not preach to me, even though as teenagers of the 1960s, we explored the same emotions and questions as the youth in Eva. Much of the American 1960s was a destructive generation, but much of it was also social and personal discoveries, much as in NGE.

[Eva Yojimbo]

Hi stderr. Nice to see you here, and nice first post.

I just finished the last episode tonight, and I must say it seemed rather anti-climatic, albeit a happy, and sensible enough ending. But the ending did seem to jump right out of 25 episodes of dark, deep and intruging plot, into a much happier place, as though it were a joyous waking from a long nightmare. And though surprised, I am somewhat pleased to have a happy ending with it.

I take it you haven't seen End of Evangelion yet - definitely rent it immediately from Netflix. End of Evangelion (EoE) was the original ending that was planned but scrapped because of problems with the censors, time, and budget. 25/26 was thrown together and then after they went to work on the film that they had wanted. Majority thought now is that the two are complimentary. The same ending shown from different points of view. But they're very, very, different. EoE picks up where 24 leaves off and essentially concludes the narrative aspect.

I'll have to give it a 10/10 after first viewing, but only because I did the equivalent of watching it twice by watching most episodes once in Engrish and once in Nihongo, to compare the subs and dubs (which are quite different in places).

The reason the sub is almost universally preferred is the changes made during the translation, the lesser voice performances (I despise Spike Spencer - the English Shinji), and the sheer impossibility of translating many of the Japanese lingual nuances.

Oh. Hello. I'm new to EvaGeeks.org. I am an American male, over 50, turned on to anime about 10 years ago. Also, I've long been endeared to Japan, our Japanese friends, their history and culture. Eva Yojimbo thought I might enjoy coming here and visiting about this fine work in anime, which I h ave only belatedly viewed for the first time.

You can check out Off-Topic to introduce yourself (more people will see it there).

PS. I would not accuse it of pedantry nor would I call it pretentious. If someone graciously explained the theory of relativity to a group of people, some might be tempted to call it pedantic, or pretentious, but some of us would be grateful for the enlightenment and stimulation of thought it might bring to us, and never think of it in a negative way. The story did not preach to me, even though as teenagers of the 1960s, we explored the same emotions and questions as the youth in Eva. Much of the American 1960s was a destructive generation, but much of it was also social and personal discoveries, much as in NGE.

Great thought. It's really nice to get a perspective on the series from someone from an older generation. I've often wondered if NGE transcends its zeitgeist and I think your post is positive proof that it does.

[Mr. Tines]

I just finished the last episode tonight, and I must say it seemed rather anti-climatic, albeit a happy, and sensible enough ending.

Definitely, go watch EoE straight away -- before you get spoiled badly.

I am an American male, over 50

So, I'm no longer the oldest guy around here!