Shinji and his fans...or lack thereof

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Hyper Shinchan
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Postby Hyper Shinchan » Thu Aug 04, 2011 9:12 pm

View Original PostXard wrote:To cure Shinji you need to love him like Kaworu did and that's only feeling you should harbor for Shinji.

Image
So let’s make a wish.
“Please let me redo again.”
No matter how many times

From the book “All About Nagisa Kaworu: A Child of Evangelion”.

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Postby Bagheera » Thu Aug 04, 2011 9:15 pm

Mmmm, yes. Love him like Kaworu did. Tell him he's a wonderful guy and then make him kill you!

Wait, that was terrible for Shinji. Perhaps another strategy is in order...
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Hyper Shinchan » Thu Aug 04, 2011 9:21 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Mmmm, yes. Love him like Kaworu did. Tell him he's a wonderful guy and then make him kill you!

Wait, that was terrible for Shinji. Perhaps another strategy is in order...

Convince Kaworu that he doesn't have to die
Eliminate Seele
???(homo sex)
Shinji's happiness!
Last edited by Hyper Shinchan on Thu Aug 04, 2011 9:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
So let’s make a wish.
“Please let me redo again.”
No matter how many times

From the book “All About Nagisa Kaworu: A Child of Evangelion”.

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Postby Tarnsman » Thu Aug 04, 2011 9:24 pm

View Original PostHyper Shinchan wrote:homo sex

The solution to everything.
"You, sir, are the very heart of the rot that has corrupted humanity from the very beginning!" - tehprognoob
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Postby Bagheera » Thu Aug 04, 2011 9:49 pm

View Original PostHyper Shinchan wrote:Convince Kaworu that he doesn't have to die
Eliminate Seele
???(homo sex)
Shinji's happiness!


Nope. I point you toward the one person who didn't scare the bejesus out of Shinji by the end of the story. Like it or not, telling the boy he's worthless plays into his self-image, so that he at least thinks you're being honest with him. If you follow that up with accepting his help when he finds it in himself to offer it you make him feel useful. After that you hit him with honest praise for doing something right and, holy Hannah, he gets some legitimate character growth out of the deal! At that point it's just a matter of our little hedgehogs finding a comfortable distance from one another, so that they can be close without hurting one another too much.

Kaworu's way is false. He is an Angel sent to destroy humanity, don't forget. Shinji needs the honest affection of another human being to make any real progress, and he needs to feel he has something to offer in return as well. Only one person in the show can legitimately give him all of that. She just has to stop hating herself long enough to give him a chance to prove himself.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Hyper Shinchan » Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:37 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:I point you toward the one person who didn't scare the bejesus out of Shinji by the end of the story.

Just because she conveniently spent the last episodes in coma.
View Original PostBagheera wrote:Like it or not, telling the boy he's worthless plays into his self-image, so that he at least thinks you're being honest with him.

I laugh at this statement, Shinji wasn't worthless at all, he always tried his best just to see things getting even worse in spite of his efforts, he was really worth of love.
View Original PostBagheera wrote:Kaworu's way is false.

Who said that his way is false? He wasn't false at all, actually he was the only one fully sincere with him, he wasn't scared by his own feelings for him, he was the only one who told Shinji "I love you"...
View Original PostBagheera wrote:He is an Angel sent to destroy humanity, don't forget.

Sent by whom? Why did they have to fight until the end? Evangelion always looked like a metaphor about mutual incomprehension and war from my point of view; sure, Kaworu wasn't a Lilin but just like Rei he had a human heart, he was capable of proving human feelings. This is what really matter, the rest is pseudo-racism.
View Original PostBagheera wrote:Shinji needs the honest affection of another human being to make any real progress, and he needs to feel he has something to offer in return as well.

You never tried looking things from Kaworu's perspective; Kaworu was searching something from Shinji, he would have ignored him if he were some kind of perfect divine being, truly capable of living by his own.
View Original PostBagheera wrote:Only one person in the show can legitimately give him all of that. She just has to stop hating herself long enough to give him a chance to prove himself.

You're talking about a miracle now, not even Misato could pull out a similar one.
So let’s make a wish.
“Please let me redo again.”
No matter how many times

From the book “All About Nagisa Kaworu: A Child of Evangelion”.

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Postby Theos » Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:51 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:I point you toward the one person who didn't scare the bejesus out of Shinji by the end of the story.

Who? Kaworu?

Image

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Postby BiQ » Fri Aug 05, 2011 1:35 am

As much as I ship Shinji with it's-actually-irrelevant-who-I-ship-him-with, I'd like to point out that before he can even start to build anything worthwhile with any other person, he has to learn to accept himself. And no, trying to do it through another's intimate affection (emotional or physical) does not work. I have some personal experience on this matter, and believe me: It. Does. Not. Work.

Friendships on the other hand, are invaluable to this.

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Postby Hyper Shinchan » Fri Aug 05, 2011 1:41 am

View Original PostBiQ wrote:As much as I ship Shinji with it's-actually-irrelevant-who-I-ship-him-with, I'd like to point out that before he can even start to build anything worthwhile with any other person, he has to learn to accept himself. And no, trying to do it through another's intimate affection (emotional or physical) does not work. I have some personal experience on this matter, and believe me: It. Does. Not. Work.

Let's also change the subject from Shinji to "it's-actually-irrelevant-who-I-ship-him-with" (Asuka), since it's even more fitting.
So let’s make a wish.
“Please let me redo again.”
No matter how many times

From the book “All About Nagisa Kaworu: A Child of Evangelion”.

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Postby Bagheera » Fri Aug 05, 2011 5:58 am

View Original PostBiQ wrote:As much as I ship Shinji with it's-actually-irrelevant-who-I-ship-him-with, I'd like to point out that before he can even start to build anything worthwhile with any other person, he has to learn to accept himself. And no, trying to do it through another's intimate affection (emotional or physical) does not work. I have some personal experience on this matter, and believe me: It. Does. Not. Work.


Indeed. And yet, isn't that the point of EoTV? He has learned to accept himself at that point, or at least begun to. And of course, your point here is what I was getting at in my previous post: unconditional love from Kaworu won't resolve anything. He needs honest interaction with others, and that includes criticism.

And of course, as I said, he also needs to feel he has something to contribute to the relationship. That simply isn't possible with Kaworu - yes, he's looking for something in humanity, but that something isn't specific to Shinji (and once he found it he was perfectly willing to die thereafter, so it's not something that would serve as the foundation of a relationship anyway). There's nothing to work with there. A real human with real problems who'll work with him is what's needed.

Friendships on the other hand, are invaluable to this.


True.

And Shinchan, you're talking about shipping Shinji with someone who's dead. Who's talking about miracles now?
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Hyper Shinchan » Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:17 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:That simply isn't possible with Kaworu - yes, he's looking for something in humanity, but that something isn't specific to Shinji (and once he found it he was perfectly willing to die thereafter, so it's not something that would serve as the foundation of a relationship anyway). There's nothing to work with there. A real human with real problems who'll work with him is what's needed.

Kaworu merely escaped from a deadlock, I doubt he wasn't interested specifically in Shinji, actually he died for Shinji's sake, rather than humanity's sake. "Real humans" (crazy girls) never worked with Shinji, there's no happiness at the end of EoE, only more misery and sufferance.

View Original PostBagheera wrote:And Shinchan, you're talking about shipping Shinji with someone who's dead. Who's talking about miracles now?

Oh, but this miracle has been already performed:
SPOILER: Show
Image

And it'll be performed again, if it's needed, until he'll bring him true happiness.
So let’s make a wish.
“Please let me redo again.”
No matter how many times

From the book “All About Nagisa Kaworu: A Child of Evangelion”.

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Postby Bagheera » Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:24 pm

View Original PostHyper Shinchan wrote:Kaworu merely escaped from a deadlock, I doubt he wasn't interested specifically in Shinji, actually he died for Shinji's sake, rather than humanity's sake. "Real humans" (crazy girls) never worked with Shinji, there's no happiness at the end of EoE, only more misery and sufferance.


Sufferance doesn't mean what you think it does.

Also, there's the potential for happiness at the end of EoE, because Shinji's finally learned to accept the notion that he might have value. Real people couldn't work with him before because he couldn't accept anything they had to offer. When that one variable changes the entire system follows suit.

Oh, but this miracle has been already performed:


No sequel theories, thank you very much.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Hyper Shinchan » Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:30 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:No sequel theories, thank you very much.

But speculations about what could happen after EoE's 3rd Impact are fine, right? Isn't this hypocrisy?
So let’s make a wish.
“Please let me redo again.”
No matter how many times

From the book “All About Nagisa Kaworu: A Child of Evangelion”.

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Postby Shogo-Kun » Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:34 pm

I'm just gonna play Devil's Advocate and say Shinji just doesn't work with humans when it comes to pairings. He's just too broken to be likeable by anyone who isn't broken. *cough*Misato*cough*Asuka*cough cough*
NGE was a damned good anime
EoE was an anime masterpiece
And Rebuild is nothing short of epic
Long live the EVAs!!

AVATAR Oreo Nakamura, Light and Dark

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Postby Bagheera » Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:48 pm

View Original PostHyper Shinchan wrote:But speculations about what could happen after EoE's 3rd Impact are fine, right? Isn't this hypocrisy?


No, it really isn't. NME isn't a sequel, so using as evidence doesn't work (you're saying the miracle already happened, don't forget). That's not the same thing as speculating about what might happen based on the actual ending of EoE.

(hint: endings involving magical SoL superpowers don't work since they're no longer in play.)

View Original PostShogo-Kun wrote:I'm just gonna play Devil's Advocate and say Shinji just doesn't work with humans when it comes to pairings. He's just too broken to be likeable by anyone who isn't broken. *cough*Misato*cough*Asuka*cough cough*


Psssst. Who's lying by Shinji's side on the beach?

Also, he's considerably less broken after Instrumentality. Granted, a lot of that work is undone by isolation-induced madness, but that's an ephemeral thing and not a fundamental issue.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Reichu » Fri Aug 05, 2011 3:11 pm

Hey, guys.

What's going on in this thread?
さらば、全てのEvaGeeks。
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Postby Shogo-Kun » Fri Aug 05, 2011 3:18 pm

^ I don't even know anymore.
NGE was a damned good anime
EoE was an anime masterpiece
And Rebuild is nothing short of epic
Long live the EVAs!!

AVATAR Oreo Nakamura, Light and Dark

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Postby Bagheera » Fri Aug 05, 2011 3:19 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:Hey, guys.

What's going on in this thread?


We've agreed that Shinji is deserving of love and respect (the "or lack thereof" in the subject title gave up and went away) and are debating the best way to administer it.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Hyper Shinchan » Fri Aug 05, 2011 4:49 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:No, it really isn't. NME isn't a sequel, so using as evidence doesn't work (you're saying the miracle already happened, don't forget). That's not the same thing as speculating about what might happen based on the actual ending of EoE.

I'm speculating about events that could have happened before NME; you're speculating about events that could have happened after EoE. I see no difference, they're both mere speculations, opinions, but as usual you want to deny my right to hold a different opinion about it.
View Original PostReichu wrote:Hey, guys.

What's going on in this thread?

Honestly? Yet another pairing war.
So let’s make a wish.
“Please let me redo again.”
No matter how many times

From the book “All About Nagisa Kaworu: A Child of Evangelion”.

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Postby Bagheera » Fri Aug 05, 2011 5:14 pm

View Original PostHyper Shinchan wrote:I'm speculating about events that could have happened before NME; you're speculating about events that could have happened after EoE. I see no difference,


I see a huge difference, as they're different continuities. It's like acting as though the manga and the anime are the same thing. I actually think it's much more plausible in a NME context (though it might be unrequited on Kaworu's part, as Shinji seems to be awfully preoccupied with Rei at the moment).

they're both mere speculations, opinions, but as usual you want to deny my right to hold a different opinion about it.


How is that any different from what you're doing to me? I don't see much of a live and let live attitude on your end of things.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.


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