What's the best way to explain Lilith's crucifixion?

[Negi Springfield]

I really don't know how to best explain this to someone who doesn't know a thing about the series.


Does anyone know how to explain that this isn't a slap to the face of Yahshuah/Jesus? I'd write more, but I'm a bit at a loss for words right now.

[Catamari]

I think the best explanation is just "Japan". NGE is riddled with religious references, many of which are meaningless. The Japanese are fascinated with Christianity, it hasn't taken much of a hold there and is rather alien to them. I don't think it was designed to be a slap in the face to any deity (or son thereof), but just to look cool.

[EvaBrothers]

Crucifixion is a rather painful condition, so perhaps they wanted to use it for that symbolism. I don't think there were bad intentions behind it, because of what Catamari just explained, and because Evangelion is good, therapeutic work.

I'm telling you this as a Catholic Christian who had the same mixed feelings the first time I watched NGE, but I made up my mind (and heart) later because I realized it was really nothing offensive. Anno took symbols from Christianity but didn't twist them evilly.

I think the best thing to do when trying to explain is to highlight the positive messages of the series.

[Negi Springfield]

Crucifixion is a rather painful condition, so perhaps they wanted to use it for that symbolism. I don't think there were bad intentions behind it, because of what Catamari just explained, and because Evangelion is good, therapeutic work.

I'm telling you this as a Catholic Christian who had the same mixed feelings the first time I watched NGE, but I made up my mind (and heart) later because I realized it was really nothing offensive. Anno took symbols from Christianity but didn't twist them evilly.

I think the best thing to do when trying to explain is to highlight the positive messages of the series.

Thanks EvaBrothers and Catamari.


It's become a non issue now, but I just wanted to know what I could say to save face. I just don't want an anime I love to be seen as "Satanic" just because of this. It's not me you have to convince, but the hardcore Christian fundies. I am a Christian, but hardly a fundie. I actually was unshocked when I first saw Evangelion. Maybe I just don't react to stuff without first learning about it. Maybe I'm weird.

[EvaBrothers]

Negi, I can share this.... and it's something I never mentioned before on this forum, but...

(see in Spoiler)

SPOILER: Show

... my most recent depression involved faith, and Evangelion helped me recover it. Seriously, the message of the series (hope, redemption, rebirth) is something that would made God smile, I think.

One thing I recently read on a saint's diary is that He looks at the sincerity of hearts before looking at anything else. It's human beings to be so fiscal over things.

Hope that can help when talking to 'bigots'. ^-^

[Catamari]

It's become a non issue now, but I just wanted to know what I could say to save face. I just don't want an anime I love to be seen as "Satanic" just because of this. It's not me you have to convince, but the hardcore Christian fundies. I am a Christian, but hardly a fundie. I actually was unshocked when I first saw Evangelion. Maybe I just don't react to stuff without first learning about it. Maybe I'm weird.

From the perspective of an Atheist, I really couldn't care less what they think of it, and I have been heckled, but the mere mention of my faith (or lack thereof) generally shuts them down. Given that you are a Christian, though, if the fundamentalists give you trouble, tell them to actually watch the show as opposed to just making claims. In my experience, the people that think NGE is satanic haven't seen the show, similarly to how I've noticed a lot of people who say "the bible says so" haven't actually read what they are attempting to quote.

[Mr. Tines]

Crucifixion was independently invented in many cultures because that's the shape of the human body with the arms outstretched; and was a standard way of suppressing the peasants in long-ago Japan as it was in Rome. It's not like it was a one off (or three-off) thing one spring in Judea.

All Judeo-Christian-Qaballist imagery is used as exotica ("pedantry" as one of the staffers described it), in exactly the same way as some mish-mash Taoist-Buddhist windowdressing might be used as spice in a Western production.

[Nuclear Lunchbox]

If somebody is going around dubbing anime as "satanic", then I doubt that I'd be listening to their argument in the first place. Hopefully, my being a Jewish Atheist doesn't reflect too badly upon this statement.

[Darkwing]

I think that it was just done to look creepy. It looks a lot worse that having Lilith just strapped up there would have, and helps drive home that Nerv is a giant bundle of dark secrets more than more humane means of restraint would have.

[Dream]

I think that it was just done to look creepy. It looks a lot worse that having Lilith just strapped up there would have, and helps drive home that Nerv is a giant bundle of dark secrets more than more humane means of restraint would have.

This. The visual impact of seeing Lilith in such a way helps to convey NERV's darkness or hidden/real nature in a single image.

[slothen]

Crucifixion is literally bondage. If you want to prevent something humanoid from taking any action, a real good method is to lay it out and nail down every extremity.

[Nuclear Lunchbox]

Don't turn people on about giant marshmallow angels. It's not nice.

[Hyper Shinchan]

("pedantry" as one of the staffers described it)

Anno himself used that word.

[Lance of LoL]

I'm an atheist, and while I mean no offense, I always hated that about Christians.

A symbol is used for who knows how long as a method of torture and execution and just because someone important in your faith died on one it suddenly becomes a sacred symbol not to be broached or made light of.

If there's one thing I got from Evangelion it's that Man plays an equal part in shaping the image of god as the reverse might be true should theists be correct. It's just one symbol adopted by follows. Hold the image of the man sacred, not the stick on which they killed him. Same goes true for anything of similar origin.

[Sachi]

Now all you'll have to explain is why these Japanese kids in giant robots are killing Angels and following the schedule of a blasphemous super-cult trying to replace God.

[slothen]

I'm an atheist, and while I mean no offense, I always hated that about Christians.

A symbol is used for who knows how long as a method of torture and execution and just because someone important in your faith died on one it suddenly becomes a sacred symbol not to be broached or made light of.

Are you mad that there's a lot of Christians, and they've co-oped the symbol of the cross, preventing you from using it without being misidentified as Christian?
Are you mad that you would normally be desecrating crosses for fun IF ONLY a major religion hadn't made the cross its symbol?
Are you mad that you would normally be desecrating crosses for fun SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE a major religion made the cross its symbol, and you somehow expect people to not take offense?

No offense, but your post comes off as pretty unreasonable, and I don't understand what you would normally be doing if Christians hadn't made the cross their symbol.

[Xard]

yeah, if people are going to cry over history overtaking a symbol shed a tear or two for poor, poor swastika instead.

Now THAT is a travesty.

[Lance of LoL]

Are you mad that there's a lot of Christians, and they've co-oped the symbol of the cross, preventing you from using it without being misidentified as Christian?
Are you mad that you would normally be desecrating crosses for fun IF ONLY a major religion hadn't made the cross its symbol?
Are you mad that you would normally be desecrating crosses for fun SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE a major religion made the cross its symbol, and you somehow expect people to not take offense?

No offense, but your post comes off as pretty unreasonable, and I don't understand what you would normally be doing if Christians hadn't made the cross their symbol.

yeah, if people are going to cry over history overtaking a symbol shed a tear or two for poor, poor swastika instead.

This, Just because someone changes the original intention it suddenly changes the entire view. People vilify the swastika because of the nazis.

As for the cross, my mind goes to things like Ground Zero of 9/11, where when it was planned to remove the debris, people got up in arms about removing it because one piece happened to come out looking like a cross. I read discussions where so-called Christians threatened violence and murder against the seemingly ungodly for daring to want to remove their symbol. What pisses me off is when people get bent out of shape over a symbol instead of paying attention to what the symbol represents and intends. It's a symbol, it's used for symbolism, no one took a whizz on it, no one scrawled "Fuck Christians" across a wall, The crosses in Evangelion are there to evoke imagery, not to insult. So while I was not mad about this topic, I'm getting there because over sensitivity is escaping the intended point of the imagery in favour of being butthurt. That is what makes me mad. I don't go defiling crosses and fair enough, wouldn't even care they existed if not for Christianity adopting them. I still think some people need to stop putting stock in the symbol instead of the meaning behind it.

[pwhodges]

It's not just religious symbols. Riots in Northern Ireland because the council plans to fly the Union Flag a bit less often.

[Hyper Shinchan]

yeah, if people are going to cry over history overtaking a symbol shed a tear or two for poor, poor swastika instead.

Yeah, I was thinking about it too, poor insignia of the Finnish Air Force; allying with Germany didn't really help the matter though.