Why do people like Asuka?

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Postby Bagheera » Fri Jan 06, 2012 7:00 pm

View Original PostXard wrote:I think it's pretty clear I was talking of the characters before the part where they lose it completely :lol:


I'm just saying, meek and obedient ain't all that great if it hurts people. Shinji hurt a lot more people than Asuka did, so whose approach really has more merit?

That does not mean viewer should be endeared by her behaviour or not finding her likeable is somehow the viewer's fault as symbv seemed to imply in one of the earlier posts because "characters were made to be likable" on purpose (though I think this assertion is at odds with Anno's own comments on characters and what he had in mind with them as well as things said by other staff members like eg. Shinji's dialogue being tuned down to something even less heroic after Tsurumaki notes "Anno isn't much of a hero either").


I agree the characters weren't meant to be likable. Heck, Rei was meant to be creepy, and we see how that turned out (I think she is, but that seems to be a minority opinion).

It's entirely legit to find her personality and character off-putting, freudian excuses be damned, is what I'm saying. Smoothing over her every personality crank (and she has many as Eva cast is collection of fuck ups) with the iron of "her mama killing herself made her do it shoo ga nai" is not to my liking.


I don't think anyone's really doing that, though. It's more "she's not really that bitchy" and "most people would react that way given the circumstances" and "but he's a FUCKING DOORMAT, what do you expect???"

I'm not saying she should be hated or doesn't deserve empathy (she most certainly does and tons of it, I find most instances of "character hating" result of insensitivity from viewer's part anyway).


Fair enough.

I'm not saying it's in-your-face-dislike. It's displeasure hidden behind nice smiles and all as Asuka is present. I'm not saying they *hate* Asuka or that she has war with them, I'm just saying the obvious that she doesn't have particularly warm relationship with any of them beside Hikari and they're just classmates. The other girls, as far as Asuka goes, are mostly just indifferent but with jealousy mixed in. I wouldn't want to be in a room with them when Asuka is away: the discussion and rumourmongering can get mean quickly.


Fair point, but I'll note they do that with everyone. Teenage girls are the meanest species on the planet.

There's not much to go by and I'm going by what we get. It's the contrary opinion that has nothing to back itself on.


What is that opinion supposed to be again? You've watered down your original argument so much by this point that I'm not really sure what you're claiming.

asking a girl's friend for help like that is pretty common with teenagers and seemingly especially so in Japan, even today. He might just be shy too and I certainly didn't see any unusual degree of "pressuring" Asuka into the date.


He was a med student asking Kodama to ask her sister to set him up on a date with a 13-year-old. That's pretty fuckin' skeevy dude. I mean, I know different countries structure their education systems differently, but I can't think of one wherein that match is even close to age-appropriate.

But anyway, yes, it was rude, but hardly awful. Certainly not deserving of hate or a bitchy rep.
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Postby Cody MacArthur Fett » Fri Jan 06, 2012 8:04 pm

I'd like to point out that we only have Asuka's word that she left that date because it was boring. It's likely that she already would be on bad terms because he chose to go around to Hikari instead of asking her directly (as we all know, this is usually considered pretty offensive in the West), and it's likely he did something on the date to set her off besides being boring and she just decided against telling telling Shinji this.

View Original PostEric Blair wrote:For some reason, I think that Asuka wouldn't really be that "scientific"; the only reason why she graduated at an early age is to pander her ego and make people notice her; sure, she might be smart, she might even be able to dual-enroll on college and take some AP classes, but I doubt she'd persue somethign like that, especially with her genetic make up and the fact she is more well adjusted; I can see this happier Asuka working as a model/idol/spokeswoman or maybe even playing sports... more of an "action girl" than "science girl".

So, you're saying that if Second Impact hadn't happened Asuka would be this girl? . . . I can definitely see it, and I can definitely see Shinji ending up as her companion, with the parents to match!

Shinji: Wait, why is my bedroom a nursery?
Gendo: Because Shinji, our family has adopted a precious little girl.
Shinji: Wait, you . . . I . . . Why didn't you tell me?!
Gendo: This is our way of telling you.


HAHA! . . . It's really quite darkly humorous how I can see that happening so easily.
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Postby Eric Blair » Fri Jan 06, 2012 8:43 pm

You do realize that now someone, somewhere will write a x-over between kimpossible and Saul...Asukampossible?
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Postby Lorkhan » Fri Jan 06, 2012 8:52 pm

View Original PostEric Blair wrote:You do realize that now someone, somewhere will write a x-over between kimpossible and Saul...Asukampossible?

Probably, I mean there's probably a Big Bossuka out there with the eye patch and all, complete with Solid Shinji and Liquid Rei. But of course thats only for the movies.

Man, Solid Shinji sounds dirtier than I thought it would.
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Postby Fireand'chutes77 » Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:50 pm

View Original PostCody MacArthur Fett wrote:I'd like to point out that we only have Asuka's word that she left that date because it was boring. It's likely that she already would be on bad terms because he chose to go around to Hikari instead of asking her directly (as we all know, this is usually considered pretty offensive in the West), and it's likely he did something on the date to set her off besides being boring ans she just decided against telling telling Shinji this.


So, you're saying that if Second Impact hadn't happened Asuka would be this girl? . . . I can definitely see it, and I can definitely see Shinji ending up as her companion, with the parents to match!

Heh. If Mrs. Dr. Possible is an Eva Brain Surgeon, she'll do operations via chainsaw, given the scale of things.

To continue the theme...

Meet Captain Asuka Langley Possible. ;)

SPOILER: Show
Image


Also, remember "Emotion Sickness," where Kim and Shego got their emotions supercharged?
SPOILER: Show


Image


Well, take that and raise it by Third Impact.


Image

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Postby Reichu » Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:05 am

View Original PostEric Blair wrote:I have a very interesting theory about all of this, which is basically what I call the Asuka principle (...)

I had the humility to suggest this myself in the Spring '11 discussion, but the glove doesn't fit nearly as well as your first take:
Eric Blair wrote:a very common theory for that is precisely that those persons see in Asuka (or any other similar character) the mental reproduction of their bully or torturer

I know it's in broad defiance of pop psychology, but not every personality type we hate has to be one that secretly reminds us of what we hate in ourselves. (Unless everyone who hates Hitler -- OH I WENT THERE -- only hates him on account of this effect.) Of all the things in myself that I loathe and agonize over, ones that could be forcefully and oh-so-vaguely construed as Asuka-like aren't among them.

Not quite, the best is simply the ability to do what others do in a more efficient and successful way

One will always reach a point where ambiguity kicks in and the "best" cannot be determined so casually. Individual variation, differences in assessment protocol, and so forth. I stand by what I originally said.

symbv: Just for the sake of testing my memory, I scrolled through that avatar thread, and I don't see any place where I engage in anti-Asuka rambling.

Now, if you want to see what Reichu in Asuka Hate Mode is really like... kochi-kochi. :mwahaha:
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Postby Mr. Tines » Sat Jan 07, 2012 4:27 am

Let's not forget that Reichu even-handedly dislikes both the girls.

For me, it's that Asuka reminded me of my teenage self, painfully so -- so how could I not love her?
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Postby Reichu » Sat Jan 07, 2012 4:42 am

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:Let's not forget that Reichu even-handedly dislikes both the girls.

Damn, talk about a rant. :lol: I got rather colorful there, didn't I? Haven't had a good anti-Rei outburst like that in a while...

For me, it's that Asuka reminded me of my teenage self, painfully so -- so how could I not love her?

Don't most old folks take the things that remind them of their teenage selves, seal them into radioactive waste containers, and send them off to the repository?
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Postby Mr. Tines » Sat Jan 07, 2012 4:58 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:Don't most old folks take the things that remind them of their teenage selves, seal them into radioactive waste containers, and send them off to the repository?
Hell, yes! I do my damnedest to forget my teens, reducing it down to a "memo to self : don't have kids".

But then Asuka came along and I was all "I know that feel" over her.
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Postby Bagheera » Sat Jan 07, 2012 11:18 am

Another thing I really like about Asuka: as abrasive as she might be, she's honest. So many people pussyfoot around when it comes to calling Shinji on his problems, and Misato in particular has "enabler" written all over her ("That's just his way" my ass). Asuka's blunt about the fact that a lot of what he's doing is annoying and bad for him. Not just for her, but for him. It's her way of trying to help, dysfunctional though it may be.

This comes to its crux in the kitchen scene, where Shinji gets the final taste of Asuka's honesty. And she's dead on point for the entire scene. Shinji doesn't like it, and in all honesty her bluntness is probably the lion's share of his decision to tang the world, but at the very least he knows where he stands when he makes the decision.

Is it necessarily healthy? No. But in a world of politeness, particularly one like Japan, that kind of bluntness could be damn appealing.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby symbv » Sat Jan 07, 2012 11:34 am

View Original PostXard wrote: That does not mean viewer should be endeared by her behaviour or not finding her likeable is somehow the viewer's fault as symbv seemed to imply in one of the earlier posts because "characters were made to be likable" on purpose

If you read my post carefully, you should notice I said "Basically all the 3 children in the main cast were created to be sympathetic characters." Sympathetic, not likeable. Anno may have put quite a few undesirable traits in the characters, but it is my belief that he (and his staff) ultimately wanted us to identify and relate with them, and made the journey with them as the theme of the anime is played out. That some enjoyed the anime because (or despite) they found the characters to be so repulsive to them is more a side-effect rather than the staff's intention (otherwise how do you explain so many merchandise created based on the characters? How many people put an image of some repulsive character at his home?)

View Original PostXard wrote: having spend 4 years on this forum I can say it's absolutely undeniable fact Asuka gets the most fawning and throughoughly positive attention on this forum.

At least in my 1.5 years in this forum I have not seen much of fawning on her except in some specific threads. Positive attention perhaps, but fawning? I doubt it.

View Original PostBagheera wrote:I've often wondered that as well. If her quip about having a college degree is true (and I remain dubious, given the various rigors involved and the fact that Asuka doesn't really fit the profile), and if her mother hadn't been destroyed as she was, I think Asuka might have turned out very differently. A scientist, perhaps, likely based in Japan (Kyoko only moved to Germany for Unit 02's final assembly and contact experiment, as I recall), and probably a lot more well-adjusted. I'd love to see her in such an environment.

I seem to remember seeing some doujin with Asuka in her 20s and now works in Nerv kind of happily....
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But I discovered Re-Take (or it found me?) and
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Postby Bagheera » Sat Jan 07, 2012 11:42 am

View Original Postsymbv wrote:I seem to remember seeing some doujin with Asuka in her 20s and now works in Nerv kind of happily....


I've seen a single picture of such, but not a doujin.

And I agree re: the fawning. Light was fawning all over the place when it came to Asuka, but most of us are far more restrained. It can hardly be called fawning when we admit she's an unpleasant character with serious mental issues.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Mr. Tines » Sat Jan 07, 2012 12:09 pm

View Original Postsymbv wrote:I seem to remember seeing some doujin with Asuka in her 20s and now works in Nerv kind of happily....
Would that be Meguro's Stray Cat? That's the most notorious thing I've seen along those lines, and the source of the only Asuka/Ritsuko fanart I can recall seeing.
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Postby symbv » Sat Jan 07, 2012 12:31 pm

^ Not too sure, as I have not read Stray Cat...

View Original PostBagheera wrote:It can hardly be called fawning when we admit she's an unpleasant character with serious mental issues.

She is not too unpleasant (and actually quite interesting) before she went downhill. And once the stress kept piling up, her past came to haunt her and she buckled. And I can't really blame her when she acted very unpleasantly once she started to buckle -- people put under heavy stress could act even more nasty.
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Postby Bagheera » Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:19 pm

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:Would that be Meguro's Stray Cat? That's the most notorious thing I've seen along those lines, and the source of the only Asuka/Ritsuko fanart I can recall seeing.


That might have been the one he was referring to, yes. I meant this pic:

SPOILER: Show
Image


One of the few post-3I A/S concepts I consider completely plausible.

View Original Postsymbv wrote:She is not too unpleasant (and actually quite interesting) before she went downhill. And once the stress kept piling up, her past came to haunt her and she buckled. And I can't really blame her when she acted very unpleasantly once she started to buckle -- people put under heavy stress could act even more nasty.


Note I wasn't finding fault with her. I don't blame a wounded tiger for being dangerous, but I'm not about to claim it isn't dangerous. Same idea.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Mr. Tines » Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:25 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:I meant this pic:

SPOILER: Show
Image
That's Pengel's Happy End of Evangelion, or at least somewhere in that neck of the woods.
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Postby Bagheera » Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:34 pm

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:That's Pengel's Happy End of Evangelion, or at least somewhere in that neck of the woods.


I don't remember seeing it there, but I could be wrong. I'll be disappointed if that's where it's from, though, since that story (at least the end) is the exact opposite of what I consider to be a plausible scenario.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby symbv » Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:50 pm

^ I have seen that pic too, but what I had in mind is something else I think, like she is wearing some scientist outfit or something...
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But I discovered Re-Take (or it found me?) and
now here I am.
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Postby Mr. Tines » Sat Jan 07, 2012 2:08 pm

One of these

Image Image

or a third one where she's being aggressively fingered by Ritsuko, which I have declined to search out.

Modulo what the hell's going on with NERV still being around in 2025, Asuka following Ritsuko's career path seems fairly plausible to me, if business is carrying on as usual.
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Postby symbv » Sat Jan 07, 2012 2:12 pm

The one to the left is the one I think. So where is it from? Stray Cat?
I never thought I would come back to Evangelion after EoE,
But I discovered Re-Take (or it found me?) and
now here I am.
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Asuka FAN FOREVER
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