Is Kaworu gay?

[Great Genius Shinji-Sama]

He's Shinji-sexual.

[Mr. Tines]

Also to which script are you referring?

Probably these -- http://forum.evageeks.org/viewtopic.php?t=7702

[Synapsid]

Here's a good reason why Kawrou isn't gay:

Mr. Hideaki Anno has stated he isn't...

Err, what? There never was any grounding to that, apart from the fact that some fans might find it convenient. I don’t know where that statement came from but what Anno has said is essentially the opposite. Anno has cited Satsukawa Aiko’s design as being the used concept with Kaworu, and backed up the idea that Kaworu is supposed to be an idealized masculine counterpart to Shinji. More importantly he said that the final version of Ep.24 has the same intent as the June Scripts(the main difference being what their producer/network let them do), and that both of them are supposed to have a “June”(Synonymous with Bl/Yaoi) atmosphere. So yes that’s pretty implicit when it comes to some sort of sexual attraction being in play.

Kaworu doesn’t seem to show any attraction towards anyone else in all of the concepts for Ep.24 (even though he had a hoard of girls lead by Asuka after him in the older concepts); although for that matter he’s pretty cold to Shinji(doing stuff like letting go of him in the deep area of water when Shinji can’t swim and rejecting his confession), it seems to be as not to hurt him more later on. He still shields Shinji from the rain with an umbrella(an act with strong romantic connotations in Japan), goes out with him, and asks Shinji, who’s basically some sort of yandere stalker while around him, to go swimming in the nude which means carrying Shinji who can’t swim, so yes that sound like attraction. It’s so blatant in the later version that it doesn’t need much explaining, after Shinji gets thermal expansion and passes out while trying to run away, Kaworu picks him up and carries Shinji to bed, and kisses him into it(the manga essentially subverted the pass out&Kiss part). The Tv version is basically just that, just without the explicit stuff, the whole getting Shinji naked part is still there and, probably a motif for Shinji accepting intimacy with someone. There’s also something to say if a certain theme consistently shows up in all of a concepts incarnations, never mind what the creators have indicated...Oh and Kaworu penetrates him with a lance in the films.

So if we want to deal with the original question then it’d be a yes, but with the caveat that none of that rules out some sort of selective bisexuality or pansexuality.

He's Shinji-sexual. *shinji_blush*

That might be a better way to put it down, we don’t see any hints of attraction towards anyone else, and Shinji has a very feminine frame and face so it might not be entirely accurate to just summarize it as Kaworu being attracted only to men.

[Hyper Shinchan]

Probably these -- http://forum.evageeks.org/viewtopic.php?t=7702

Thank you Mr. Tines. I didn't notice that thread, could it be a good idea to sticky it (I'm also going to put some reference about it in episode 24's wiki page if anyone else doesn't want to do it.)?

[Stuart]

Right, if I was to start a thread asking "is Misato straight?" what would the reaction be?

It concerns me that some people try so hard to imagine Kaworu as anything other than gay, even though all the signs point towards him being a card-carrying YMCA member.

It's hard not to see such denial as homophobia, unconscious or otherwise.

[Sachi]

Why don't you try reading the thread and examine the evidence before you make ad hominen claims like that, or at least provide evidence for your claim that Kaworu is a homosexual. Saying, "Lol, you guys are homophobes. Kaworu is so obviously gay," and not backing it up is a cop-out. In other words, please explain your opinion if you're going to disregard the other point of view.

[esselfortium]

Right, if I was to start a thread asking "is Misato straight?" what would the reaction be?

I suppose you could potentially make arguments to the contrary, but we aren't given much reason to believe that Misato's affection for Kaji is anything but genuine; if she weren't straight, she'd have found someone else to latch onto and become intimate with.

Kaworu appears for less than one episode in total and his characterization is almost solely based around the fact that he's accepting of and kind to Shinji; that's not evidence of any orientation at all, particularly with his Angelic nature and his 'mission' and Shinji's direct relation to it. I don't know if you're familiar with a lot of gay people, but the whole mystic, ethereal thing is probably more related to Kaworu not being exactly human than it is to the possibility that he likes other boys.

It concerns me that some people try so hard to imagine Kaworu as anything other than gay, even though all the signs point towards him being a card-carrying YMCA member.

It's hard not to see such denial as homophobia, unconscious or otherwise.

Yeah, who could forget the classic episode where Shinji and Kaworu got manicured together and shared a romantic evening and a passionate kiss? :-\

[Mr. Tines]

Yeah, who could forget the classic episode where Shinji and Kaworu got manicured together and shared a romantic evening and a passionate kiss? :-\

We do have these --
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuK5DSEF4I4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTdkrxuKCik

[esselfortium]

Which are about as relevant to the show as The Official NGE Pog Collector's Kit

[Lucretius]

Essel, I must say I strongly disapprove of your continued mockery of the Official NGE Pog Collector's Kit.

[Stuart]

Thanks so much for those Youtube links! <3

I wasn't personally attacking anyone here, I was pointing out (or attempting to) that all these anti-gay-Kaworu arguments are heterosexist. They take heterosexuality as the default state: one is straight unless evidence is presented to the contrary.

My point about Misato is that she is obviously straight. Kaworu is, for all the same reasons, obviously gay - all the affections of both characters are shown towards members of the other/same sex respectively.

The difference is people start throwing around ideas with Kaworu such as "pure Angelic love" and "non-sexual love" etc, suggesting that this means he isn't gay. Well let me tell you, there's a lot more to being gay than simply sexual attraction (this again, is another homophobic assumption, that being gay is all about homoSEXuality, and that two men are not capable of forming a stable, long-term loving relationship). The argument goes that if Kaworu feels "pure love" for Shinji then he is NOT gay - the idea is not entertained that perhaps he could feel "pure love" (whatever that is anyway) and ALSO be gay. The underlying assumption here is that if a boy (or Angel, whatever) is showing pure love for someone else, then he's most probably not gay. That is a homophobic argument.

Then we hear "Oh, but he's an Angel, he must be asexual" etc... fans will go to any length to try to protect their beloved characters from traits they dislike.

[Cody MacArthur Fett]

Well, let's see, if I remember correctly Word Of God says that all of Kaworu's interactions with Shinji are completely platonic on his end, but were specifically tailored to be mistaken for homosexual specifically to make a commentary on society's loss of innocence -- in other words, to screw with the viewer. I think it's pretty obvious that Shinji thinks there's something going on there, if for no other reason then that he's off the deep end at that point, but I still think his perception of Kaworu is missing one important point that both he and the viewers seem to have missed, and which should affect people's view of him greatly: he's an agent of Seele! You know, the guys that planed and caused the deaths of around three billion people in the Second Impact? Maybe it's just me, but I tend to discount what the enemy says as falsehoods until there's corroborating evidence. There's a chance that maybe some of what Kaworu said was genuine, but I think it's far more likely that he was lying out his butt for the entire episode in an attempt to manipulate Shinji into not killing him when he tried to start his own version of Third Impact, and it worked too right up until the point where he found out his bosses were lying to him.

[Stuart]

Here Cody, that makes a bucket of sense, thanks for that.

Except is it not his love for Shinji which makes him sacrifice himself in the end?

[esselfortium]

Perhaps, but in forcing Shinji to be the one to carry the burden of killing him, he's not particularly considerate of the boy he speaks so delicately and kindly about the fragility of.

[Azathoth]

Perhaps, but in forcing Shinji to be the one to carry the burden of killing him, he's not particularly considerate of the boy he speaks so delicately and kindly about the fragility of.

It's not clear that he understands how his death will affect Shinji - or perhaps his simply overestimates the kid's sense of the greater good.

[Cody MacArthur Fett]

Except is it not his love for Shinji which makes him sacrifice himself in the end?

Eh, not really. My interpretation of his actions was that he was acting in a manor similar to Ritsuko when she destroyed the cloning facility. His bosses lied to him, they betrayed him for their own ends, so why not get a little revenge on them by slowing down their plans for Third Impact that much more? It isn't exactly the most logical thing in the world, but then again NGE characters aren't exactly known for acting rationally. (Personally, if I wanted to get revenge on them I'd just cause a cave-in and bury Lilith, but then again I also would be paranoid about being caught in Unit-01's hands, so take that as you will.)

[chaosakita]

I don't know if I've posted in this thread before, so I might as well post again...

Why are we even applying human definitions of sexuality (especially ones pretty much only construed after the 19th century) to Kaworu? I don't think it's necessarily appropriate. To establish Kaworu as gay, we have to establish that he is human first. Unfortunately, due to his very short screen time, we don't have very much insight to his psychology, but clearly, he identifies with being an angel more, and those don't seem to really have a concept of sexuality. It's also unknown if they have a concept of gender/biological sex, and even so, it is not guaranteed that Kaworu would see Shinji of being of the same sex. So therefore, this entire discussion is moot. Also, I accuse all of you of being completely discriminatory and...

...speciesist! (Or even Lillim-ist in general)

On the emotional front, I wonder what sort of emotional depth Kaworu feels. It seems that in EoE he understands the concept of love, as shown by explaining it to Shinji. I think definitely there is a possibility that love could be romantic (but not necessarily sexual) in nature.

Conversely, there is nothing against the possibility of Shinji being capable of being attracted to other males. But that is another topic that has already been discussed...

Eh, not really. My interpretation of his actions was that he was acting in a manor similar to Ritsuko when she destroyed the cloning facility. His bosses lied to him, they betrayed him for their own ends, so why not get a little revenge on them by slowing down their plans for Third Impact that much more? It isn't exactly the most logical thing in the world, but then again NGE characters aren't exactly known for acting rationally.

I think it is a little bit too similar to Ritsuko and takes away the "otherwordly aura" I think Anno wanted to convey. And it makes his spiel about Lillim pretty pointless, don't you think?

[Synapsid]

Which are about as relevant to the show as The Official NGE Pog Collector's Kit

Actually, that isn’t the case. Anno(or the word of god if you will) has said that the aired versions have the same intent the scripts did, and they both are supposed to have the same ”June” atmosphere. What’s more, Anno also said that not only is the content in the scripts both relevant and the equivalent to the aired version, but it also is the key element in Kaworu’s background and in defining his interactions with Shinji. Oh, and if that weren’t enough Anno says that he would have used them if it wouldn’t have been for the producer/network blocking them; since you know, having the male lead act like a lovesick girl around a new guy wasn’t something you could expect a network to air in what was a 90s mecha program. So no, Anno explicitly rules out the idea that the scripts have no bearing on the show, as convenient an interpretation like that would be for some.

Well, let's see, if I remember correctly Word Of God says that all of Kaworu's interactions with Shinji are completely platonic on his end, but were specifically tailored to be mistaken for homosexual specifically to make a commentary on society's loss of innocence.

I probably should say before hand that I'm not directing any of this against you or any other individual. Just at that alleged quote... which while having no basis whatsoever has been floating around well past it's time.

I have no idea where something like it ever came from, there’s never been so much as a reference or sign to this alleged statement, and his verified statements concerning Kaworu, have said the exact opposite. Anno was explicit about Kaworu being specifically designed as an “idealized masculine counterpart” to Shinji, and that it isn’t some sort of disinterested godly affection for some sort of aggregate of humanity, but a very personal interest in Shinji. Kaworu himself isn’t supposed to be that alien or godly either Anno says he’s supposed to have a human background with an angelic condition framed around that and as far back as the oldest concepts he’s always had an angel/human duality. It’s not as simple as saying he’s an alien being guided solely by some sort of divine love when it comes to humanity.

And the part about it supposedly being pseudo gay to highlight society’s loss of innocence, that’s even more unbelievable, Anno isn’t a romantic author bemoaning the loss of society’s innocence and its corruption(his dislike for Otaku culture isn’t the same as that, and he doesn’t involve the myth of “innocence”). A narrative like that lacks any sense whatsoever within EVA’s context, and the idea that a simulacrum of homosexuality is used to highlight society’s corruption seems incredibly centered around a heteronormative narrative, and none to tolerant. All of that is completely at odds with what Anno is known to have expressed. As to the interview, it seems that the western fandom took, a comment from Anno, that Kaworu and Shinji’s relation is driven by emotional connections(the idea that this is incompatible with the other aspects of love is absurd ), grossly out of context and it over time mutated into a quote that suited the fandom’s belifes.

I don’t really believe the claim about the controversy around Kaworu’s sexuality is being driven by intentional homophobia, but given that in the mostly male western fanbase constructed a narrative to frame Kaworu in some sort of heteronormative light(which also happened to fit into a generalized religious archetype as well), it does seem like there is some sort of erasure here. Of course that has nothing to do with EFG itself but the fact that that narrative, and the nonexistent statement from Anno keep floating around even after comments from Anno discredited them, does make me think that some hetero guys might still find it hard to accept the queer parts of Kaworu, and this manifests through (mostly unintentional) erasure(it’s a very common social phenomenon so it wouldn’t surprise me).

[Seele00TextOnly]

Okay, quick note... could you please, PLEASE stop with the multiple sizes of font embedded within eachother like that? It's such an eyesore and our brains and eyes have to keep shifting focus... it doesn't help that usually these changes carry on contradictory/multiple lines of thought and even personality.

Your posting shouldn't read like a puppet show, man. Please lay off the varying sizes of font.

re: Topic: Kaworu isn't gay IMO.

[Lucretius]

What’s more, Anno also said that not only is the content in the scripts both relevant and the equivalent to the aired version, but it also is the key element in Kaworu’s background and in defining his interactions with Shinji.

What? Anno said an unused script was the key to interpreting Kaworu's personality in the actual show? That doesn't make any sense; did he expect viewers to have a copy of June of their laps when watching the series?

I don't recall seeing this claim in any of the translated excerpts of the June interview.