Sign if you're hoping for a happy ending.

[Sailor Star Dust]

^
About "dead characters that stay dead": Very true for Shinji's EoE Good End in PSP NGE2. Rei tells Gendo to screw himself (and checks in on Shinji--cue heartwarming handholding), Instrumentality's averted, Asuka's saved from the Harpies...But both Kaji and Misato are obviously still dead from their respective NGE/EoE events (think Ritsuko's alive). Sad end.

Wouldn't be surprised if FINAL's as open-ended as EoE's ending, as long as it feels satisfactory since the message in NME is somewhat different than NGE.

[GoatJesus]

I still don't get why people think EoE's ending is somehow this desolate tragedy. It's been years since the film was released. You think people would start to have a larger base of appreciation for it like MGS2 instead of being hooked on false objective events.

EoE's ending is quite somber and bitter sweet, which I like. I think there was enough happiness in the End of Evangelion to be suitable for the series. Shinji broke free from his cycle of indecisiveness, starting to break free from his dependent personality disorder. Asuka in herself found happiness and solace in knowing she was not alone (and still cared for by her mother). Rei became her own person by defying Gendo--all that Jazz. Plus the ending on the beach was supposed to be about Shinji stopping strangling Asuka, not the other way around. It was a continuation of the scene in third impact. He stops. On top of that, third impact was broken and people had a chance to return to earth if they see it fit. It's really up to the viewer in that regard.

Honestly, EoE was a very suitable ending for the series. It was ambiguous in the right ways. RoE might try to go for an extreme, or be too similar to EoE. I wouldn't like either. I'm hoping for something surprising. The fact of the matter is, it'd be hard to top EoE since EoE was a very grey ending in a lot of ways. Not in the sense that it was dark, but in the sense that it was very middle ground. I think RoE needs to find a different kind of middle ground.

[one-eyed]

Bagheera, Sailor Star Dust, GoatJesus: When I see comments like yours, I wonder if I watched the same series you. I really like to be able to understand what you understand, but it requires more faith than I am able to gather. I'm too skeptical for that.

[Bagheera]

Bagheera, Sailor Star Dust, GoatJesus: When I see comments like yours, I wonder if I watched the same series you. I really like to be able to understand what you understand, but it requires more faith than I am able to gather. I'm too skeptical for that.

There's no faith involved, it's simple fact. People went through Instrumentality, and people can come back from the dead. Any alternative that doesn't involve 3I would be objectively worse.

[Monk Ed]

You'll have to add me to that list.

And let's just take it for granted in this topic that some people are going to disagree on the matter.

[pwhodges]

It's not even disagreeing; just finding more or less of an understanding.

[Chuckman]

I don't think everyone who ever died can/will return post-EoE.

It's never really defined in the show's metaphysics what a soul is. One may need to have been conscious during 3I to regain physical form. Or, the dead may simply be dead. I don't think that's the case but to play devil's advocate, we don't know that soul=person only that soul=part of person. Person in the sense of identity, personhood, the individual.

In all of the cases where we see people surviving without a body they had some sort of help to maintain their consciousness- Yui and Kyoko in the Evas, Shinji when discorporated, etc.

[Bagheera]

My rule of thumb has always been that 2I and 3I mark the boundaries re: coming back. If you died before or after you're out of luck, but anywhere in between and you have a shot.

[Sorrow]

I don't think everyone who ever died can/will return post-EoE.

The Chamber of Guf was said to be empty, so can we assume that souls are recycled? If they can own and manipulate souls, but couldn't locate any, then they must all already belong to something?

I suppose then it would depend on how long it takes a soul to become part of another living thing, and therefore how close to Third Impact someone died whether they can return or not. Which, we cannot know.

My rule of thumb has always been that 2I and 3I mark the boundaries re: coming back. If you died before or after you're out of luck, but anywhere in between and you have a shot.

But why would Adam's awakening mark the end of Lilith's souls being created and/or recycled? People have surely been born within that time frame, so souls must be coming from somewhere despite the Chamber of Guf being empty. If souls are getting recycled during that period, many people are going to luck out.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

My rule of thumb has always been that 2I and 3I mark the boundaries re: coming back. If you died before or after you're out of luck, but anywhere in between and you have a shot.

“Never coming back” after EoE’s 3I as in “never becoming physically manifested” if one were to die sometime other than during 3I? We see Kaji kicking around in Instrumentality, and he died in Ep 21. But then, he never physically manifested afterwards either. So I guess that makes sense.

But what constitutes as dying “during 3I”? Technically Asuka didn’t die during Third Impact. None of the steps required for 3I were even initiated before her death, so it’s impossible for her to have died anywhere during the event of 3I itself. (Maya’s reaction confirms Asuka’s life signs as nil, and none of the gates for 3I were opened until the episode after Asuka was already dead.) Simply fighting a few MPAs that were in existence prior to arriving to Japan doesn’t initiate 3I. Asuka’s death happened before the initiation of 3I. And Yui’s statements at the end of 3I don’t refer to time as a way to exclude anyone from ever coming back. (The only qualifier was exactly: “Anyone can return to human form as long as they can imagine themselves in their own heart.” Time was never an issue.)

I’m not sure why we’re even trying to explain how or why Asuka returned and others didn’t. Given everything explicitly explained to us within all versions of the TV series, Death, and EoE, the only reason why people aren’t seen returning from 3I is because they’ve found that they didn’t want to return. As Yui clearly and unmistakably stated in the film, anyone can return it human form if they want to. Nothing from any of the other versions of the TV series even attempts to negate this undeniable fact of this fiction. Shine and Asuka are seen as the only ones returning because they’re either the only ones who want to, or are the only ones to be able to imagine themselves in their own heart.

Nothing in stated in the NGE series detracts from this thought. Nothing from the original NGE series ever will detract from this thought. It will remain a constant in NGE.

Now when it comes to NTE (what I thought we were supposed to be discussing here), we’re not even sure what Instrumentality is supposed to even do. No one’s told us. Is that Cup of Christ looking thing pulled from the Earth’s ass supposed to be an Ark of some kind? If so, then for what? Is Seele preparing the most bloody drink in the giant Cup of Christ looking thing for her, even larger entity to drink from? Are the Lillin (if that’s what humanity is) the refreshing drink for this entity? Do we even know? Have we even seen the movie that tells us?

We’ll just have to wait and see. I for one am preparing on an ending on the emotional level of either Gunbuster or Nadia, maybe even a combination of the two.

[Chuckman]

Death is such a final, overpowering event that experiencing it renders coming back from the sea impossible without a supreme act of willpower. Hence the poignancy of Asuka's return. What Shinji did while sheltered by his monster-mother and a cthonic goddess, Asuka did on her own, because she chose to.

I don't know how to explain the Grail imagery in Q, except that these things are often chosen for a meaning that doesn't quite align with their Judeo-Christian significance. I.e. name for the Lance was probably chosen because of the occult belief that whoever controls it can direct the fate of nations.

[Bagheera]

“Never coming back” after EoE’s 3I as in “never becoming physically manifested” if one were to die sometime other than during 3I? We see Kaji kicking around in Instrumentality, and he died in Ep 21. But then, he never physically manifested afterwards either. So I guess that makes sense.

Buh? Dunno what you're talking about. I said the window was 2I - 3I, so I don't know where you got "during 3I" from.

[Chuckman]

I don't think coming back is a trivial thing. Imagine one's self in one's own heart is a bigger deal than you make it out to be. It's not simple self revelation, it's spiritual apotheosis.

[Bagheera]

I don't think coming back is a trivial thing. Imagine one's self in one's own heart is a bigger deal than you make it out to be. It's not simple self revelation, it's spiritual apotheosis.

The trees found Zen, clearly.

[Chuckman]

What is the wisdom of the oak?

[pwhodges]

That both the future and the past lie with the acorn.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The answer lies in the rings.

[Chuckman]

Okay, we'll go with that.

[Sailor Star Dust]

Soul recycling's heavily implied with Kaworu's NGE2 Good End (FAR talk)/Lilith in Rei's Scenario, I thought. I'm honesty at a loss on what the hell that grail in 3.0 means, but NTE sure is implying that its take on Instrumentality is way different than NGE, for sure.

If people want to see how/if NGE and NTE tie in somewhere, that's fine, but let's try to keep it within the context of NTE happy ending possibilities and not turn this into an EoE discussion, okay? Plenty of threads in the Discussion section for that.

[rare candy]

I think both endings (EoT and EoTV) had "happy" endings, EoTV moreso (you don't get much happier than completing characher archs, cheering, congratulations!, and Shinji smiling). EoT was kind of on the bleak side but we still have Shinji realizing he can be happy and the prospect of others coming back from instrumentality.

I don't see why the ending of Rebuild wont have a underlying happy subtext. I've always felt that one of the overarching themes of Eva is that we must see our own self-worth, and that we are as capable of loving and being loved as we are capable of hurting and being hurt. I think 4.0 ending on a sour note would be out of character for Eva. Yes the road to happiness will be rough but it is worth it and it is possible.

I'd like to see the characters physically and emotionally struggle, but eventually triumph (especially Shinji). If anything I'm rooting for Shinji even more after 3.0. It doesn't need to be overly saccharine, but I would hate to see a bleak ending. Show me hope, basically.

It's also been a bit of a pet-peeve of mine that people always take happy endings to mean something unrealistic. Why? Why does reality have to be a cruel wasteland? Didn't Eva teach you about perspective, "you can have fun on a rainy day" after all.

[nostalgic_beer]

I would like more clusterfuck madness.

No after tips from videogames, Anno speaches, nothing. Just Final with no answers whatsoever. All questions about Mari, "S. Ikari???" on Shinji's foot in 3, "This time I'm gonna make you happy" and all craziness we had, completely unanswered so we can have all kinds of speculation til the end of phpBB.

I just don't want Anno being completely insane and "ignoring" 3 like it never happened or it's a different flow of time in Instrumentality and continuing Final from 2.