Shinji's Actions

[EscapismIsBad]

Also, it was that desire that let him awaken the EVA in the first place. I don't think calmly sitting there & intellectually telling himself that he ought to beat the angel because that's what Jesus would do would've done the trick, it required some emotional catalyst

Currently we don't really know what led to the awakening of the EVA, it may have happened because of strong emotional influences or even something totally different like synchronization rate too high, the answer will only be found when Shin comes out.

He simply couldn't control it; especially since he was never told that there was a need to stop or else.

This is dubious at best, everything.
The cinematography indicates Shinji indeed had some control over the EVA since 01 is paralleling him, because of Shin last trailer we almost for sure know Shinji can indeed control the awakening of the EVA. He was told to stop by Ritsuko and the others if I'm not mistaken, but this is highly dubious too since we don't know if Shinji was able to hear them (realistically probably not, but that would make Misato discourse pointless... besides that EVA isn't that realistic). I doubt Shinji didn't know about the destruction of his surroundings when he did start doing those angellic things to pointlessly save Rei (pointless because even Rei itself acknowledges this + EVA Q), it's similar to the Bardiel case earlier, the dummy plug did block Shinji view for the majority of time but It isn't like him didn't know what was happening to his surroundings, the protagonist isn't exactly dumb.

We don't know if "just destroying the core" would have worked or if the EVA was just bound to keep and keep transforming. We don't know if he could've stopped after pulling Rei out if he'd known the awakening was dangerous.

Yes, that's more reasons to wait for Shin.

[Blockio]

The whole "catalyst" part is just a mistranslation from old fansubs.

KAWORU:
Shinji Ikari-kun.
Once awakened, Eva Unit 01 opened the Gates of Guf
and acted as the trigger to bring about the Third Impact.
The Lilin call it the Near Third Impact.
You were the key to it all.

Shinji:
No...
I just wanted to save Ayanami.

KAWORU:
Perhaps.
But that caused this.

In particular, the original Japanese uses this:
原因 【げんいん】 (n) cause, origin, source, (P)

[BusterMachine4]

Well, aren’t “catalyst” and “cause” practically the same thing? Something that allowed something else to happen, whether directly or not. I’m not talking about the scientific definition here, just the common one. Either way, it doesn’t affect my point.

[Zusuchan]

EscapismIsBad wrote:

He simply couldn't control it; especially since he was never told that there was a need to stop or else.

This is dubious at best, everything.

I know you already provided a pretty nice list of why it is "dubious", but while I have still time, I'd further state that Ha pretty much shows Shinji in entire control. Shinji screams "Get up!" (or some equivalent of "start working"-I can't quite remember his exact words, sadly) and then Unit-01 reactivates. But unlike in NGE, in which Yui was shown as the one in control, in this it's presented as entirely Shinji's doing. Shinji straight-out astrally projects himself to pull out Rei's soul from Zeruel and screams about how he wants to save Rei, which seems to indicate he very much was in control of the Eva at that point.

While Shinji obviously didn't know that saving Rei would end up doing what it did, I don't think there's much room for questions re: the selfishness of his actions. He certainly doesn't think he's narcissistic and probably doesn't want to be be it, either, but the fact he literally says "I don't care what happens to the world" when saving Rei should be a pretty big warning that his actions aren't really all that altruistic. His actions in Q and the way he treats others is even more obviously horrible there.

I would say that one of the main theses of NTE is the debilitating effects of narcissism and escapism, how the two often walk hand in hand and how many people don't want to be selfish and escapist, but don't realize it and refuse to acknowledge reality because the implications-and, of course, at the end, how you can become a better person at the end anyway, which I would argue is a pretty positive message.

BusterMachine4:Yeah, you're right, the two words have pretty much the same meanings, so your point doesn't really change because of that. Also, welcome back!

Edit: So, it has been brought to my attention that there are a few mistakes in this post.

Firstly, the idea of Shinji being entirely in control of Unit-01 is false-it's more that he and Yui were working in concert-however, Yui was still reacting to Shinji's wishes as far as we know and he is still responsible for his actions there.

Secondly, saying "Zeruel" is wrong since we never get the Angel's name in NTE and saying the same name will only generate unnecessary ideas of NGE and NTE being tied more than they are. Therefore, it would be more correct to simply refer to him as the 10th Angel. (No Angels besides from Lilith have also been named in NTE.)

Thirdly, "catalyst", despite being rather similar to "cause" does not necessarily refer to something other than the underlying cause, it could also mean a facilitating agent. Therefore, "cause" isn't just a more accurate translation, but also one that slightly changes what Kaworu really meant.

[Shinji Ikari Expy]

Shinji may or may not pilot Unit 01, but he must play a central role in the ending, even if it just means rejecting instrumentality, (or the NTE equivalent).

The idea of him spending the entire movie in the mess hall kitchen or an isolation cell while everyone else kicks ass is just beyond lame*. Yeah, I get the message of that, and yes, it is realistic, but this is still a fictional story and the audience needs a catharsis.

The hero needs to be redeemed or else NTE is just about some loser who made a mistake and then....? Learned that he should shut up and let the more interesting side characters do all the work? Apart from storytelling novelty, what is the point of making the main character sit on the sidelines during the climax?

*To be clear, I think it's fine if he's initially put in these positions and then is called upon to do XYZ because of extenuating circumstances.

[kuribo-04]

Even if those red backgrounds in the trailers turn out to be stand ins I hope not, I like them I think khara is being honest about Shinji being at the same location as Misato, Ritsuko and Gendo. The last preview also says Shinji confronts Gendo, so maybe that is not only something that happens, but his actual role too. Could be trying to speak sense into him or somethimg else.

[Lennik]

If this mecha anime doesn't involve the protagonist piloting the mecha, it will be a bad movie. Sorry. Shinji has to pilot Eva 01 because it would suck for him not to, and I don't care what this youtuber says. I love the Eva fanbase, but it has a huge overthinking problem and forgets how to be entertained sometimes.

"But what message will that send? In real life, we don't have mecha, and we still have to deal with problems anyway and that's realistic blah blah blah."

Don't care. This is a mecha anime. And if it involves ham-to-ham super robot combat between Shinji in Unit 01 and Gendo controlling Unit 13 somehow, I will be happy, not put off. I'm not necessarily saying I want:

Shinji: "EAT THIS!"
Gendo: "NEEEEVEEEEERRRR!"

But actually yes, I do want that. Sue me. It's a mecha anime. I cannot imagine a more disappointing twist than Shinji not piloting Eva 01.

[EscapismIsBad]

^ You're right in some instances, sometimes the EVA community tends to overthink some details.

Besides all of that Shinji not piloting EVA 01 this time would be SO pointless, EVA already does have 2 animated endings, one of which Shinji doesn't even touch 01 and the other where Shinji enters the plug but let the mecha do all the work alone, he technically didn't do nothing regarding 01 in EoE, we don't need a third ending with Shinji not piloting the EVA.

[kuribo-04]

If this mecha anime doesn't involve the protagonist piloting the mecha, it will be a bad movie. Sorry. Shinji has to pilot Eva 01 because it would suck for him not to, and I don't care what this youtuber says. I love the Eva fanbase, but it has a huge overthinking problem and forgets how to be entertained sometimes.

I don't understand your points here.
First, no, that would not make the movie bad. A movie being bad is more complicated than that.
It is also not overthinking. Whole franchise is about the protag struggling with what he thinks is his responsibility and forcing himself to pilot.
I also don't see how Shinji not piloting would make the film not fun. We have the best character ever Asuka to take care of that.

[Settie]

^ It's still Shinjis story, things resolving without his involvement as a pilot would be anticlimactic. As good as Asuka is, she would've fried in the atmosphere if Unit-1 hadn't destroyed the drone.

[BernardoCairo]

Although I'm inclined to believe that Shinji will pilot Unit 01 at 3.0 + 1.0 (and it will be amazing), I don't think the movie would be any less fun if he didn't. I mean, there are too many factors to consider here. In The End of Evangelion doesn't actually use Unit 01 in combat, but that's still a great movie nevertheless. Asuka's battle with the EVA Series is not only the best directed in the series, but probably the most recognized one as well... So, yeah. I don't know.
I have to take my hat off for your "Gendo and Shinji" concept, however. It made me laugh a lot. I think it is kinda cheesy, but I can see the appeal, I guess hahaha.
As for people overthinking stuff, I believe it’s just a "feature" of humans in general. It's not only a problem within the EVA community hahahaha.

We have the best character ever Asuka to take care of that.

YES. hahahahahaha

[Shinji Ikari Expy]

Whole franchise is about the protag struggling with what he thinks is his responsibility and forcing himself to pilot.
I also don't see how Shinji not piloting would make the film not fun. We have the best character ever Asuka to take care of that.

The franchise is about Shinji embracing his responsibilities to others and not running away, something symoblized by piloting.

In 3.0 he wants to pilot in order to feel needed and important -- he's doing it for the wrong reasons, which is why it blows up in his face. Piloting is still symbolic of his responsibility to others, but 3.0 destroys any hope he has of using piloting to stroke or soothe his own ego.

If the franchise ends with Asuka (and Mari) doing all the heavy lifting, I'd have to look back at NTE's story and ask: why was Shinji the main character of these movies? Asuka was the ace pilot, Asuka was betrayed by her friend/love interest (albeit unintentionally on Shinji's part), Asuka fought the years-long war against NERV, Asuka saved the day. In this scenario, Asuka is like Guts and Shinji is like Griffith. Seems like Asuka should be the main character here!

[Lennik]

I absolutely stand by my comment about Eva fans overthinking things. A hundred different people on this forum have wildly diverging views about what "the message of Eva" supposedly is, what constitutes maturity/immaturity, how much real life philosophy Shinji should study before he decides whether to pilot the robot, etc. And that's great for discourse, but they're still subjective, and there's always a pretty presumptuous assertion about what Anno supposedly believes and why that's definitely the answer. And I've seen people argue here that piloting the Eva to save the world is somehow childish because it's an easy way out, or a magic reset button, or the cause of all his life's problems to begin with, because if he actively participates in the conflict it's a form of adolescent escapism somehow. Our protagonist is fighting against the literal end of humanity in a mecha anime. Piloting the Eva is kind of vital here.

And not to demean physical labor, no disrespect intended at all, because I've worked those jobs too, but I will be bored to tears if the "message of Eva" is that in order to save humanity from your father's mass extinction death robots, you should just sweep the floor in the hallway while every other character does the cool stuff. Eva is about a lot more than robots, but ... you still need the robots.

[EscapismIsBad]

^ It's still Shinjis story, things resolving without his involvement as a pilot would be anticlimactic. As good as Asuka is, she would've fried in the atmosphere if Unit-1 hadn't destroyed the drone.

It was indeed very wholesome and cool Shinji/Eva 01 saving Asuka and her EVA, I'm sure those thoughts happened to pass during Asuka's mind when she first encountered Shinji and when she retributed helping Shinji out of the plug, he isn't all that bad, he's just a brat..
Also, I'm pretty sure Shinji will go pretty crazy when Asuka and Mari falls to the Gates of Guf in a suicide mission in SPACE, tragic.

[Gendo'sPapa]

2.0 established the Rebuild version of Shinji is still a pretty good cook.

Wouldn't it be lovely if Shinji embraced being the head chef on the Wunder and they no longer had to eat those 2001:A Space Odyssey goop meals?

[BernardoCairo]

@Shinji Ikari Expy
What I really want to see from Shinji's character during 3.0 + 1.0 is a complete overhaul in his attitude! As you said, 3.0 Shinji was piloting for all the wrong reasons. He was not only being escapist, but also childish as all hell! I mean, he thought that all his problems could simply disappear in the blink of an eye. Well, in the end, he paid the price for that.
Now, at 3.0 + 1.0, I'm hoping to see a more mature Shinji. Someone that not only acknowledges his mistakes, but also grows from them. Maybe piloting Unit 01 again would be a great way to visually show how much he has matured since 3.0.
Shinji is back at his roots, but he is not the same guy as before. He seems to be more focused in the latest trailers. So, I'm betting that he is not going to fight only for himself in this movie. He is not going to fight for the praise of others, either. I believe that Shinji's journey will be all about growing up and protecting others around him, or something. Well, we'll have to wait and see.
Anyway, this could be a way of doing things. But there are also other alternatives, of course. The possibilities are endless! I'm sure he will have an important role in the movie (piloting or not).

@Lennik
I think that what you're describing is not overthinking, but thinking in general. I mean, when I consume something that I enjoy, I like to think about it and devise my own interpretation on it. That's just how art works. Imagine reading a book and not having a take on it afterwards. Not really possible, right? Unless it's an empty and lifeless work.
Because of Evangelion's ambiguous nature, we tend to think more about this specific aspect of the story. It is what entertain most of us while watching and talking about the show. There will always be disagreements, of course. But that's okay. Usually there is no right or wrong while looking at these things. That's all completely subjective.
I do agree that people tend to overthink Evangelion sometimes (like most things in life). But not while talking about its "main message". That's something impossible for us to avoid after watching it. After consuming any type of media, to be honest. Things start to get crazy when we are all discussing some minor details, or something hahahaha. But even then it's usually fun.

[Kendrix]

And that's great for discourse, but they're still subjective, and there's always a pretty presumptuous assertion about what Anno supposedly believes and why that's definitely the answer.

Oh look, nuance. Water in the desert! This is especially true since this is a work of art where a lot was left ambiguous on purpose

The franchise is about Shinji embracing his responsibilities to others and not running away, something symoblized by piloting.

No, it's actually the very opposite. (There's even one interview where he says something like "why do ppl think the message is you can't run away? Why would everything the protagonist thinks be right?")

The idea that he "cant run away" - ie that he is a helpless playball of the world around him is the main belief holding him back. He comes in in episode 1 already thinking that, that's not something he needs to learn.

Both endings spent a lot of time unpacking this (especially the underrated masterpiece that is EoTV) but both explicitlyhave a line like "No, you actually can leave" or "It was actually good that I left". But of course leaving has consequences too & he might decide that he wants those even less than the price of staying... which is a choice, an internal locus of control, very different from the super ego dominated "Well, I have to" which he then gets all passive aggressive about.

All the pilots have all their self-esteem and self-image tied up with their job of piloting (which could be a standing for anything you feel is "the one thing you can do"... for Anno it's prolly making anime, for many people it could be a hobby or nerdy interest where you move with a confidence you otherwise don't have. ) and that is 100% a bad thing. The EVAs are objects of obsession, something that's eaten their egos and souls. And it's not much different for the staff that's looking to harness.

It's not as simple as "just don't do it" (you do need a job - and even a hobby becomes something your ego is invested in & you feel pressure over when you start liking & cherishing it; In-universe, the angels do need defeating) but piloting is a much more ambiguous symbol and I don't think there's any point anywhere in the anime or the movies where anyone does it purely out of 'responsibility'. Touji maybe, since he did it to get Sakura in a better hospital.


This is why being told that he's no needed as a pilot anymore is actually a painful thing for Shinji in Q, you'd think he'd be relieved since he hates it so much, but it was the one reason people needed him & were glad of his presence... or s he thinks. Actually he's had a life outside it all the time, the ep 26 sequence is just a lampshade. Other skills, connections that maybe started with his coming to Tokyo 3 but expanded beyond the professional.

This is why having a life somehow based on his non-EVA related skills would actually be the best case for him (which makes it sound 'too easy' so it wont happen YET...)

He had a moment of actually letting go of that super-ego-dominated "have to" mentality, of confidence & accomplishment, but if he kept that up there would be no more story so they had to yank that away from him. Or rather challenge him even more now that he's "stronger".
Though "yanking it away" makes it sound too capricious/arbitrary -
The whole reason he didn't do that before & just did what people told him and what he feels he "has to" is that he was afraid of something like this: That he would fuck up and everybody hates you.

Admitting you want things makes you vulnerable. Giving it your all exposes you to the possibility that "your all" miht still not be enough (this is a fear I can really relate to), so if you overcome that fear and still lose/fuck up that's uniquely painful... and in Q it's happened on an incomprehensibly large scale.

I'm curious as to what Anno's answer to that might turn out to be.

[kuribo-04]

^ It's still Shinjis story, things resolving without his involvement as a pilot would be anticlimactic.

I think that's really underselling what Eva can do.

I mean...it's not like Shinji was much of a pilot in EoE. He's judt sitting there.

[LightDragonman]

He'll probably pilot again, and this time, he won't bother to help someone if he has a chance to save them. Letting Rei die was clearly the correct choice for him in 2.0 after all, as he should've just killed Zeruel along with her, as then, he wouldn't have caused all this trouble. Him saving her was him choosing escapism over reality. and we all know how much Anno hates that. Heck, that's why he hates Rei, choosing to showcase him saving her as the absolute worst thing he could've done. Really, he should've gotten over his friendship with her, and treated her like the disposable doll she truly is.

Death is the only option for Rei, and ignoring her will be tantamount to Shinji's development. Or at least, to never put the live of someone you care about over your own.

No, I'm not still bitter, why do you ask?

[BusterMachine4]

ANNO. DOESN’T. HATE. Rei. Stop spreading this story that was concocted by people on Reddit and YouTube who know nothing about him. Anno has actually said that his biggest shame in the original series is not giving Rei enough screen time, and he’s been actively trying to do Rei’s character more justice in Rebuild. Shinji saving Rei was bad because he rejected the entire world in order to save her, not just because he saved her. And you may not like the direction her character is going right now, but we still have one movie left to go. Lots of stuff could change.