Shinji - not actually Yui Ayanami's son this time? [No Shipping discussions please!]

[UrsusArctos]

It just seems like something Shinji and Rei shippers want to be true so they don’t have the stigma of “Shinji literally screwing his mom” messing up their preferred ship. It would ruin the overall Freudian metaphor of how “Shinji doesn’t want a girlfriend to love and make him better despite the suffering, he wants a mother to do everything for him so he doesn’t have to grow up and suffer more.”

SO yeah, it reeks of wishful thinking, not even a theory, just because, as Anno states, somepeople are unable to grow and face the truth, even if hurts. But if hurts you what NGE and EOE told you 25 years ago and still are in denial because shipping, you're the problem.

You are so obsessed with hating Rei X Shinji shipping that you've completely, hopelessly missed the point, and turned this into a discussion about shipping after I explicitly said it had nothing to do with it.

[Jäeger]

You are so obsessed with hating Rei X Shinji shipping that you've completely, hopelessly missed the point, and turned this into a discussion about shipping after I explicitly said it had nothing to do with it.

If It's not your intention, It's very well hidden. Sorry, but from my point of view yours is just wishful thinking because It comes from nowhere, closer to a "What If" than a theory. And no, I don't buy your words, because you know there is nothing from the narrative that could make possible your... theory.

Don't worry, I won't visit this post again.

[UrsusArctos]

And no, I don't buy your words, because you know there is nothing from the narrative that could make possible your... theory.

Don't buy my words, but don't tell me what I know and don't know.

And if I say I don't care about "shipping", I mean it.

And I know that the Shinji - Rei relationship in NTE is different than it was in NGE. Why should a relationship that was maternal in NGE be portrayed so differently in NTE, and does it hint at a change in Shinji's identity that we've taken for granted? Perhaps it does, and if so, what does it imply? If not, what does it imply?

[Kendrix]

It came from Asuka fans. Not to paint with a broad brush, but some of them have this weird complex where they must convince themselves that Asuka is the strong, real life waifu appreciated by real men, while Rei is the weak, 2D waifu appreciated by lifeless otaku. Some of them seemingly can't be a fan of Asuka without putting the other girls down.

Aside from anything to do with Rei, what gets me about this is that it's like... idolizing Tyler Durden pretty much.
Not only does it miss the point that all the characters are supposed to be screwed up in some way
It seems to be an American or anglosphere thing, (other language sphreres might have their own neuroses but not this particular one*) Asuka is fixated on because she's the harsh unforgiving one, "Get your ass in gear you weakling, I'm the best, I earned it..."
Never mind that this attitude breaks her when she falls short of her own impossible standards.
Same as the tendency to hate Shinji while kind of unquestioningly adopting his own view towards himself.

Like "that chick who hates you actually secretly has the hots for you" and "super genius prodigy with model looks and badass fighting skills" couldn't possibly be wish fulfillment in any way.

This isn't meant to be a "no u" or an insinuation that ppl just want to be the one dishing out the shit talk, Asuka suffers that and that suffering probably resonates with... anyone anywhere in the world who has ever put themselves through unforgiving unreasonable standards.

There's just as many ppl Kaworu as the "one true option" dude you think the peeps writing all those scenes with Asuka/Rei/Misato didn't realize how they'd come off like it wasn't a studio than came about as a "by fans for fans" thing.

Ultimately it's not about a soap opera who wins plot but about the conflicting forces, wishes and desires that act on the human psyche. That's why there's never been any 'resolution' on screen because we all carry all those desires with us to various degrees and they won't disappear. It's not about "picking the right one" the experience of conflicteness is the point. Also while they're all complex symbols in Shinji's story (more like ying and yang than good or bad - the former is actually a comparison Sadamoto used when discussing the designs), but since this show actually has Good Writing they also have their own stories whose ending & meaning you might have an opinion about independently of him



Also what is even meant by "shipping"? Cause depending on context ppl use that to mean different things, as different as:

1) I think this is insinuated by canon regardless of what it means and if I agree with that statement
2) Im aware its not canon but its a fun AU
3) I think this is the perfect relationship goals or whatever and I want X to happen
4) This dynamic is interesting & emotionally charged, with no statement about goodness or idealness implied anywhere

Not everyone means 3

* while German fandom was still a thing I didn't notice any tendency to bash either of the girls if you liked the other. Overall las was slightly more popular but as an individual character Rei was more popular Im not active in Latin American fandom but I can read Spanish and, on the one hand yay Rei content, on the other a lot of it is focussing on her an an acceptable option (& generic-ifying her in the process) cause there's an irrational hatred of Asuka & Kaworu... could be machismo but as I said I'm not immersed/ don't understand that culture enough to analyze it


Btw I meant this post more in regards to hating or minimizing the characters than which one you'd think should end up with Shinji or whatever, you don't see the types of ppl alluded to above granting Rei the possibility of purely platonic friendship either, I'm talking specifically about the "plot device otaku waifu" reaction like they objectively measured why ppl like her with a motivation-o-meter. (complete with out of context quotes or completely unfounded claims about the "intentions" behind the work. )

imho it's just as telling as wether ppl hate Shinji with a passion if they're willing to have empathy with someone labelled as 'other* & try to understand them(or feel sorry for Asuka despite her abrasiveness, for that matter)

[BusterMachine4]

Also what is even meant by "shipping"? Cause depending on context ppl use that to mean different things, as different as:

1) I think this is insinuated by canon regardless of what it means and if I agree with that statement
2) Im aware its not canon but its a fun AU
3) I think this is the perfect relationship goals or whatever and I want X to happen
4) This dynamic is interesting & emotionally charged, with no statement about goodness or idealness implied anywhere

Not everyone means 3

I think most people mean 3 when they're referring to the concept of "shipping". However, I agree that there are other varieties as well. Just sticking to Asushin, I can find examples of all 4 varieties:

1) The article about Asushin on the Evageeks wiki
2) Almost all well-known fanfics (seriously, they're all Asushin for some reason)
3) The people I complained about earlier for not understanding the point
4) The opinion of most people on this forum (including me)

I'm sure I could find examples for every other major ship as well.

Btw I meant this post more in regards to hating or minimizing the characters than which one you'd think should end up with Shinji or whatever, you don't see the types of ppl alluded to above granting Rei the possibility of purely platonic friendship either, I'm talking specifically about the "plot device otaku waifu" reaction like they objectively measured why ppl like her with a motivation-o-meter. (complete with out of context quotes or completely unfounded claims about the "intentions" behind the work. )

imho it's just as telling as wether ppl hate Shinji with a passion if they're willing to have empathy with someone labelled as 'other*

Yeah, the people who side with an emotionally insecure bully and hate the two lonely outcast characters are unintentionally revealing a lot about their personality. They think that Anno agrees with them, not realizing that they're part of the group Anno is criticizing. This seems to be a phenomenon exclusive to the American fandom, and it makes me think that Anno was right about Western culture.

[Blockio]

It is right there in the title. Stop derailing the thread into a shipping discussion.

[Settie]

And I know that the Shinji - Rei relationship in NTE is different than it was in NGE. Why should a relationship that was maternal in NGE be portrayed so differently in NTE.

Hmm that might be the crux of the issue. I don't have the best recollection of NGE so correct me if i am wrong, but from what i do remember their relationship was more ambiguous than NTEs. Shinjis comments about Reis "motherhood" were more open to interpretation, from 'that's odd' to nudge nudge wink wink type thing. Adding Rei IIs realization before her death that she desired Shinji in what could be interpreted to be more than platonic manner plus Shinjis instrumentality, where he sexualized Rei alongside Misato and Asuka (did NGE Shinji ever find out Rei was a clone of his mother?) and you get quite a distinct picture from NTE.

NTE though is more blunt about where it stands, from some of the dialogue to rather blatant imagery.

In essence NGE was a hell of a lot more nebulous and NTE more upfront instead of the other way around, at least when it comes to Shinjis relationship with Rei.

EDIT: Bleh in case the stupid link doesn't want to cooperate here's individual GIF links.

SPOILER: Show

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[Kendrix]

I don't think there's any difference other than the movie being more condensed and streamlined

They might have tweaked details for effect or to do the same concept in a different way but I don't think the essence of the characters has really been changed, otherwise that would defeat the point of getting to see more of them.

The scene from the gifs tells you a lot more about Gendo than anyone else, & what motivations he has in regards to other characters, the way that he's emotionally burned out/ dead inside and only distant reminders of the past get half-hearted responses out of this.

It's hardly more blatant than, say, Naoko thinking of a flash of Yui when she sees Rei I (twice, in fact). There's some degree of physical resemblance there? That's not called into dispute.

"Various other people see/ use Rei as a standing for someone else" (or note some superficial resemblance) and "Rei is her own individual with all that implies & what she thinks/feels towards ppl might be very different from what Yui thinks/feels" are in fact not contradictory statements.
The latter is why the former is sad because there's this lonely resigned young person who has barely the minimum of anything and not even her body/soul/face is truly her own, and no one even cares about her for her own sake.
Shinji is hardly the only example; Like for example Gendo was Yui's lover, she was very much wearing the pants in that relationship, if it weren't for her he wouldn't be where he is (well, actually we can't be certain how much of the backstory is still the same in the rebuilds with the maiden name thing changed)
As far as Rei is concerned he's her creator, maybe some quasi-parental figure, also a source of torment, she's kind of at his mercy, probably shouldn't wouldn't boink him certainly not at her current age... completely different.
And that's before you get into all the people that Yui knew but Rei didn't, or that Rei knows but Yui doesn't.



& the fact that she has very different feelings towards these two ppl (or about many things really) is proof that she's different from Yui.

[UrsusArctos]

That's true, NGE was more nebulous with character relationships than NTE, but there seems to be a lot more going on with NTE's backstory. The one odd detail was the bit about the "settei" or background being changed.

I don't think there's any difference other than the movie being more condensed and streamlined

They might have tweaked details for effect or to do the same concept in a different way but I don't think the essence of the characters has really been changed, otherwise that would defeat the point of getting to see more of them.

One of the little background details is that Rei Ayanami from NGE was named for the late-1920s era Fubuki-class destroyer Ayanami, while her NTE counterpart is named for the post-World War Two (1950s) Ayanami-class destroyer of the same name and is explicitly stated to have a different backstory. Same reason why Asuka Soryu's been replaced by Asuka Shikinami and why Mari Makinami is in. And I've been following Reichu's insanely detailed exploration of various visual details and possible background references, and it seems like there's something very big going on in their backstories that hasn't fully come to light.

If Asuka, Rei and Mari are all new or changed characters, why not Shinji? Why do Shinji's eyes glow in the Eva when they never did before? Why does Shinji himself seem capable of pulling off crazy things, when it was explicitly his mom in charge previously? Case in point, the Zeruel/10th Angel fight. In NGE, it was Yui awakening and cannibalizing Zeruel. In NTE, even though Yui is involved again in blocking Gendo and the Dummy System, it's Shinji who pulls off the insane stuff against the 10th Angel, including retrieving Rei from the darkness. Fuyutsuki's talk in 3.0 about "Kids with fate built into them" makes me wonder why Shinji would have "Fate" built into him.

And given that the NTE Gendo seems more villainous than the old Gendo (albeit still having Yui as the only person he really cared about), it makes me wonder if Shinji wasn't actually Gendo's son this time for him to be manipulated in this way. Gendo's "heartless bastard" behavior towards Shinji was to prevent Shinji from being hurt by him or becoming like him, but we seem to see precious little of it this time. It's all the small details here that add up to something different.

Of course, Shinji could really be Gendo's and Yui's son rather than a Boba Fett-style clone, but that would make Gendo even more villainous and cruel, almost to the point of being a cliche villain, because Shinji, rather than representing a younger him (and so be loathsome) would also have something of Yui within him, and the previous Gendo, for all his coldness, genuinely didn't want to lose that.

[Kendrix]

If they knew the timeskip would happen that's certainly unforgivable, but I'm not sure that they did - At the end of 2.0, Gendo seems to think it's "not long now".

Rebuild Gendo (and rebuild Yui) are total enigmas at this point. That' why I'm looking forward to that moment where the visor comes off.

Some wonky secret regarding the pilots is not unlikely but it's fully possible that they gene manipulated a zygote before implanting it while having it still come from their sperm & eggs a la Kipo and the age of Wonderbeasts.

I don't think they'll give up on something as central to the mythos as the "mothers soul in the mecha" thing.

As for glowing eyes, that isn't unique to Shinji, Mari and Asuka both do it at various points. That's just what happens beyond a certain plug depht in rebuild verse Someone probably thought it looked cool.

[Blockio]

I don't think they'll give up on something as central to the mythos as the "mothers soul in the mecha" thing.

I mean, they already have. Even if 05 had the soul of Mari's mother in it, retreiving it would have been impossible, much less implant it into 02 in that short time; same with 01 and 13, since from the time of 01 brielfy awakening in Q (which, assuming that the mother's soul is still the key component, could only have been caused by that) and the launch of 13, 01 has been firmly in Wille's possession throughout with no way for Nerv to get their hands on Yui's soul

[Akko]

I don't think they'll give up on something as central to the mythos as the "mothers soul in the mecha" thing.

*laughs in Mari being able to pilot 3 EVAs and still be assumed as a "Lilin"*

But seriously, independently of whatever the hell the pilots are at this point, it's pretty much been established that the "mothers soul in EVA" concept has been thrown out the window