Shinji - not actually Yui Ayanami's son this time? [No Shipping discussions please!]

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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Shinji - not actually Yui Ayanami's son this time? [No Shipping discussions please!]

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Postby UrsusArctos » Fri Dec 25, 2020 11:21 am

Disclaimer: I was finished with making up theories a long time ago, I'm now a forum admin, and what I'm about to post here is likely barmier than a bat in the belfry.

But the whole 3.0 + 1.0 trailer, the lyrics to "One Last Kiss", the cover for "One Last Kiss" featuring Shinji and Rei (Q) and the idea of Gendo "putting (Yui) Ayanami's data" in the Rei clones have me thinking about the whole Shinji-Rei relationship in the Rebuild movies. Rebuild seems to be shipping Shinji x Rei, which is pretty squicky considering that Rei is a clone of his mother, and that Rei 2 ("Poka Rei") even has his mother's "data" in her. But a couple of pieces of odd information have snapped into place and made me wonder if Shinji is not who we think he is this time around.

I think it's possible that Shinji isn't Gendo and Yui's biological son this time around, but rather a one-of-a-kind clone of Gendo, created in a different process than the Ayanami clones. The idea popped into my head when someone commented on how Gendo-like Shinji looks in the trailer (image from the redditor who posted the new trailer screenshots)

Image

You could argue, rightly, that this is a flimsy and ridiculous thing to base the "Shinji is a clone" idea on, especially since it's established that Gendo in NGE looks a helluva lot like a older Shinji and is very much what someone like Shinji could grow into (As someone who mostly used either a bear or a young Gendo as an avatar, I know).

Shinji doesn't recognize the maternal connection with Rei and even Gendo seems intent on Shinji making contact with Rei. Shinji's whole desire to save Rei from the 10th Angel and setting up the impact that followed were done from the perspective of a lover, not a son. Why is Shinji so oblivious to Rei's connection to his mother, which took time to establish in NGE but was nevertheless present, subliminally, from the very beginning? It's absent in NTE, which is weird when you see Fuyutsuki show Shinji a picture of Yui with him as a baby. However, Fuyutsuki may not be the most reliable of narrators this time around, and while he may not be lying outright, he could easily be omitting crucial information about Shinji's conception and birth.

There's also Gendo's relationship to Shinji. Gendo is cold and claps Shinji in irons for his Eva-enhanced tantrum about "losing someone he loved" in 2.0. He seems more uncaring of Shinji than ever before, letting Shinji come within an iota of being cooked by the 6th Angel. He has a strong emotional reaction to Shinji calling him "father" before the 10th Angel bashes in. Gendo seems to be even colder when Shinji returns after 14 years, using him like more of a tool than ever before and without so much as the pretense of treating him like a son (such as at the start of 2.0 when he went to visit Yui's grave). Even if Gendo was a cold bastard to his son in NGE, something is clearly off about the way he treats his son in NTE.

In 1.0, there's that bizarre scene in the Eva after the Sachiel battle where Shinji hears Gendo and Yui talking about naming their children, and Yui's voice blends into Rei's in that sequence. "Ikari Shinji, Ayanami Rei" are the settled names for their children. If Ayanami Yui's clone is Ayanami Rei, Ikari Gendo's clone, by analogy, is Ikari Shinji. It's bonkers, but it's the only thing I can think of that makes that sequence work while having a Shinji x Rei romantic relationship, as opposed to a sibling relationship.

There's also Fuyutsuki's line about "Children who have fate built into them" - I imagine that Gendo with Yui by his side would rather subject a clone than an actual biological son to such a fate, and it might have been easier for Gendo to imbue a clone of himself with the necessary data, alter its memories, and send it on its way.

Given the absent maternal element in Rebuild, how would Shinji being a clone of Gendo change things going forward?

It would change the relationship between Gendo and Shinji from father and son to donor and subject, and so break whatever filial bonds Shinji had with Gendo. Shinji would probably be released from any desire to fulfil his father's wishes. It would also break Shinji's bonds to his "mother" Yui in favor of Rei as a lover. Rei's desire towards Shinji would be turned over as well, as possibly would some of her relationship with Lilith. With all past bonds broken, Shinji would have to forge new ones forward and find a place of happiness in his life without relying on those who were "related" to him.

There's less than a month before which this crazy theory could be proven wrong, but I have a sneaky feeling that at least something in this craziness will be proven right.
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Re: Shinji - not actually Yui Ayanami's son this time?

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Postby GhostlyOcam » Fri Dec 25, 2020 11:53 am

Shinji not turning out to be an actual "son" of Gendo and Yui is something that's a bit too far fetched for me although I really appreciate the in-depth analysis you made here. But yeah, I also noticed that compared to his NGE self, Rebuild Shinji is a lot less or even not creeped out at all by the revelation that Rei is Yui's clone in 3.0, his thought about Rei when he had his mental breakdown was "I didn't save her" and that's it, no "She's my mother's clone" or whatsoever. Then there's these shots right before he and Kaworu sortied with Eva-13:
SPOILER: Show
Image

The way he still dearly held the SDAT Rei gave back to him pretty much shows that a major motivation of him redoing the world was indeed to meet Rei again. We all know that the SDAT will still play big role in Shin (Shinji looking at it in a shot reminiscence to 3.0 in teaser #2, ReiQ offering her hand while holding the SDAT in teaser #3), whether the resolution of their relationship will end in a romantic note or not is obviously still a mystery, but Rebuild's take of Shinji and Rei's dynamic is indeed different and comparatively more overtly "romantic" from NGE.
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Re: Shinji - not actually Yui Ayanami's son this time?

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Postby dzzthink » Fri Dec 25, 2020 12:40 pm

The way Shinji obsessively and impulsively tries to bring Rei back and the world-ending extremes he has undertaken is actually not too different from Gendo's ultimate goal to reunite with Yui. It is a bit of a stretch though because the clones we see like Rei are not the same as the original Yui (different hair and eye colour, some identity issues as well).
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Re: Shinji - not actually Yui Ayanami's son this time?

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Postby UrsusArctos » Fri Dec 25, 2020 12:52 pm

But we have the -nami series, Asuka Shikinami, Mari, and then Yui who is an Ayanami this time around. If they're in some way clones or artificially evolved humans, it would make sense for Shinji to be the same, even though like you mention, there's only one Shinji and he's not at all like the Rei clones. But the obsession to "bring Ayanami back" is identical for father and son.
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Re: Shinji - not actually Yui Ayanami's son this time?

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Postby JoelcrNeto » Fri Dec 25, 2020 12:56 pm

[EDIT: Sorry, Ursus. I have some problems with text interpretation in English. Now that I understand what you mean. I apologize for the inconvenience.]

View Original PostUrsusArctos wrote:In 1.0, there's that bizarre scene in the Eva after the Sachiel battle where Shinji hears Gendo and Yui talking about naming their children, and Yui's voice blends into Rei's in that sequence. "Ikari Shinji, Ayanami Rei" are the settled names for their children.

Could you explain to me why you consider this dialogue to be possible evidence? In NGE we have a similar dialogue, but in 1.0 it's bigger.

In NGE, episode 20:
Yui: have you decided?
Gendo: Shinji for a boy and Rei for a girl.
Yui: Shinji... Rei...

In EVANGELION:1.11 YOU ARE (NOT) ALONE.:
Yui: have you picked out a name?
Gendo: if it's a boy, we'll name him Shinji. If it's a girl, Rei.
Yui: Shinji... Rei... Shinji... Shinji... Ayanami... Shinji... Rei... Rei... Ikari... Rei... Wrong. Rei Ayanami.


I consider the same dialogue, with the difference of 1.0 being more detailed.
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Re: Shinji - not actually Yui Ayanami's son this time?

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Postby Kendrix » Fri Dec 25, 2020 2:07 pm

The whole point of Rei is that she ultimately became her own person no matter what her makers were trying to assemble out of a diverse piecemeal of angel, technology and human. She's NOT Yui. Yui's in EVA 01 - this is very obvious when their actions are exactly opposite at the end of 2.0.

In the end they met after/during puberty and they're the same age (at least physically & mentally); They didn't grow up together (which would normally trigger westermarck effect), and there's no family bond being subverted/ misused for abuse, so i don't really see where the squick is.
I ultimately subscribe to the very logical "french law" concept of incest where consenting adults never count, but rape by non-blood related caretakers very much does.
Besides "tragically star crossed lovers turn out to be secretly related to make it extra tragic" is a fairly common trope in Japan much more so than in the west.

I think it makes more sense to like ponder that than to frantically explain it away, I mean Shinji still has Yui's forehead hair part thing, and there is that line in 2.0 where he guesses that the smell inside EVA 01 reminds him of Rei before arriving at the correct conclusion, implying their smell is vaguely similar, but distinguishable (though in the original series he also considers Misato, so like first he gets the associations/relationship type right, then he considers someone who has a different relationship but probably actually has similar salt content in their sweat or whatever, and then at last he guesses right - I've always had the theory that it's not so much a literal smell as low-level telepathy that is "processed" as smell because the sense of smell is most closely tied to emotions & the primitive brain)

Even if we assume any suggestion of anything vaguely romantic was the product of overactive imagination, the relationship we're left with is friendship between classmates/ comrades in war.
Family is not just someone you like but don't boink, it's more specific than that. Asuka is closer to being in a "pseudo-family" space than Rei, since they lived in the same household, use each other's first names, see each other goofing around in their PJs, more or less got brought together by proximity alone etc none of which is the case for Rei.

I also think it's absurd to compare Gendo's detailed, cold-blooded 30 year plan that he fanatically believes in with Shinji's 5 min impulsive action that he didn't know the consequences of because it was a deliberately engineered trap prepared since before his birth... and he isn't the only one who fell into it. Everyone's actions are "within expected parameters" right now. Only Kaworu and Mari realized the full extent of how much they were duped, and they were helpless all the same. Here's to hoping they will realize they're in the same boat (and jaded as he probably is now, Shinji will need convincing of this as much if not more than the WILLE peeps before he can do anything productive) and screw destiny after all.


Also, as much I as I would like to believe otherwise I doubt that Rebuild is going to "ship" anything, the homeroom drama part of the story ended with Bardiel; The storyline has become so grimdark and serious that I'll count myself lucky if Shinji lives and attains some form of freedom & control over his life. He can worry about a girlfriend after a few years of therapy.
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Re: Shinji - not actually Yui Ayanami's son this time?

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Postby Jäeger » Fri Dec 25, 2020 3:01 pm

My god, the shorcuts the people search to defend their ship..

How can you say that Shinji os not shocked after the reveal? My god, he is even more shocked than in NGE. And the Yui Ayanami choice makes clear the "sister" status.

All this because the new trailer has hinted that Reishin os not gonna be an option?

Well, this is the place where people debate how much % of Yui's DNA is in Rei to justify "incest"....
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Re: Shinji - not actually Yui Ayanami's son this time?

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Postby UrsusArctos » Fri Dec 25, 2020 3:51 pm

Umm, I think there's a serious communication error involved here. There are lines about the data from Yui being transferred to Rei. Both Reis are their own persons, although the original Rei had data transferred from Yui if Fuyutsuki is to be believed.

It was meant as a very long shot, nothing more...Anyway, I'm either terrible at conveying ideas or the idea that Shinji is a Gendo clone seems too outlandish to be taken seriously, if this discussion is any indication.

View Original PostJäeger wrote:My god, the shorcuts the people search to defend their ship...


What ship? If you're talking about the original Ayanami, that's a Fubuki-class destroyer from the interwar era, sunk during the Second World War, a vessel that was top of the line for her time. The Ayanami in Rebuild was named after the postwar Ayanami-class destroyer, a much inferior ship if you ask me, so much so that there's terribly little English-language info about her!
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Re: Shinji - not actually Yui Ayanami's son this time?

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Postby BusterMachine4 » Fri Dec 25, 2020 4:01 pm

View Original PostUrsusArctos wrote:What ship? If you're talking about the original Ayanami, that's a Fubuki-class destroyer from the interwar era, sunk during the Second World War, a vessel that was top of the line for her time. The Ayanami in Rebuild was named after the postwar Ayanami-class destroyer, a much inferior ship if you ask me.

He's not talking about naval ships, he's talking about character ships. Specifically, ReiShin, and how a lot of ReiShin fans wish there was a way for it not to be incest. The idea of Shinji being a clone of Gendo just seems like an excuse for Rei and Shinji to not actually be related.

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Re: Shinji - not actually Yui Ayanami's son this time?

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Postby ShinjiStranglesAsuka » Fri Dec 25, 2020 4:19 pm

View Original PostBusterMachine4 wrote:He's not talking about naval ships, he's talking about character ships. Specifically, ReiShin, and how a lot of ReiShin fans wish there was a way for it not to be incest. The idea of Shinji being a clone of Gendo just seems like an excuse for Rei and Shinji to not actually be related.


Doesn't that partly defeat the purpose of the ship? Also this is anime so not sure why they'd be hung up on that at all. :rei_poke:

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Postby BusterMachine4 » Fri Dec 25, 2020 4:48 pm

View Original PostShinjiStranglesAsuka wrote:Doesn't that partly defeat the purpose of the ship? Also this is anime so not sure why they'd be hung up on that at all. :rei_poke:

Unless only messed-up people ship ReiShin, I doubt it. And cartoon incest is still incest.

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Re: Shinji - not actually Yui Ayanami's son this time?

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Postby andreh » Fri Dec 25, 2020 5:20 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I remember correctly in 2.22 during Sahaquiel battle Shinji associates the feeling of being at EVA01 entry plug with the smell of his mother and then with that of Rei.
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Re: Shinji - not actually Yui Ayanami's son this time?

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Postby GhostlyOcam » Fri Dec 25, 2020 7:40 pm

View Original PostJäeger wrote:My god, the shorcuts the people search to defend their ship..

LOL, I don't even "ship" anyone in Eva even more so defending it, that's just my general observation/interpretation.

It really is not hard to see that the dynamics between Rei and Shinji in 2.0 were intentionally made to have more romantic tensions or at least much friendlier whether you like it or not (where do you think the Poka!Rei name came from?), with the whole thing about the bento and stuff. Comparing Shinji's reaction in NGE and 3.0, the former was outright "scared" by Rei III after the revelation, the latter? Not so much, he's a lot more bothered at the fact thay ReiQ isn't the Rei he saved than anything else, it's clear in his lines.

EDIT: Screenshots for better comparison.

NGE:
SPOILER: Show
Image

3.0:
SPOILER: Show
Image
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Re: Shinji - not actually Yui Ayanami's son this time?

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Postby Settie » Fri Dec 25, 2020 10:03 pm

As it has already been mentioned, Shinji already has, at least in a subconscious level, already associated Rei with unit-1 and his mom. So having a M. Night Shyamalan twist in Shinji being a clone of Gendo would totally change the ending of 2.0. No longer about Shinji running away to mommy but a chad move where he gets the 15 year old virgin and the milf version of Yui at the same time.

I never really got the romantic undertones from Shinjis and Reis relationship that 2.0 seemingly has. I've seen it as Rei acting as the protector of Shinji in the rebuilds and for his part Shinji was drawn to Reis familiarity. Something i recently noticed was this shot of the would be dinner party. As far as i remember, Rei only invited Shinji and Gendo, so who is the 4th bowl for? If i were to speculate, Rei was trying to recreate a family with Gendo the father, Shinji the brother, with Rei the "sister" filling the role of the absent mother signified by the 4th bowl.

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Re: Shinji - not actually Yui Ayanami's son this time?

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Postby GhostlyOcam » Fri Dec 25, 2020 10:18 pm

View Original PostSettie wrote: Something i recently noticed was this shot of the would be dinner party. As far as i remember, Rei only invited Shinji and Gendo, so who is the 4th bowl for?

Rei invited almost everyone she knows for the dinner, Asuka, Misato, even Ritsuko.
SPOILER: Show
Image

It's not weird to interpret it as a siblinglike relationship if that's what you want to believe, but it should be noted that Misato also lampshaded in the very same scene that what Rei's doing is probably motivated by love (for Shinji), like how Asuka concluded that she probably likes Shinji after the poka-poka dialogue. Also the section before English title break was pretty much a KareKano reenactment (it even has KareKano's music) so they definitely aim for that romcom feel, although there's a massive tone shift after that.

I think I can agree with Kendrix about ReiShin's "legitimacy" if they end up being canon or whatsoever, but I don't think Rebuild will canonize pilot pairings nor I want it to happen because the shipping war will be agonizing. The only thing I could see happening is Toji/Hikari if they really survived NTI.
Last edited by GhostlyOcam on Fri Dec 25, 2020 10:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Shinji - not actually Yui Ayanami's son this time?

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Postby ShinjiStranglesAsuka » Fri Dec 25, 2020 10:23 pm

View Original PostSettie wrote:No longer about Shinji running away to mommy but a chad move where he gets the 15 year old virgin and the milf version of Yui at the same time.


Ha, you say this like it's a bad thing. :rei_creepy_nge:

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Postby Settie » Fri Dec 25, 2020 11:08 pm

@Ghostly

Honestly i'd forgotten that Rei invited a bunch of people, however the point still stands (unless i'm forgetting more people) that Rei was expecting Shinji and Gendo and the 4th bowl is a mystery. It's not so much as sibling per se as it's an odd one, closer to motherly but not quite there either. Unit-1s protectiveness of Shinji is absent from NTE but i think it was shifted over to Rei, as she protects him physically (1.0 climax) and emotionally (2.0 climax/ potentially behind the 0% sync rate in 3.0). NGE version of Rei II was reveled to have weirdly romantic/sexual desire towards Shinji but her NTE equivalent wanted to feel "warm" together with Shinji and Gendo as that was the purpose of the dinner party, not as some romantic move as interpreted by Misato or Asuka.

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Re: Shinji - not actually Yui Ayanami's son this time?

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Postby GhostlyOcam » Fri Dec 25, 2020 11:16 pm

View Original PostSettie wrote:Unit-1s protectiveness of Shinji is absent from NTE but i think it was shifted over to Rei, as she protects him physically (1.0 climax) and emotionally (2.0 climax/ potentially behind the 0% sync rate in 3.0).

This becomes eerier now that she's absorbed by Unit-01 itself if you want to believe Fuyutsuki's words, in a sense she IS Unit-01 now. I can see how you interpret it that way too, while I'm still sticking to mine. I'd leave more discussions about the true nature of Rei's feelings for Shinji after Shin Eva comes out if it ever gets brought up again (which I'm sure it will).
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Re: Shinji - not actually Yui Ayanami's son this time?

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Postby UrsusArctos » Sat Dec 26, 2020 2:15 am

View Original PostBusterMachine4 wrote: And cartoon incest is still incest.


This.

GhostlyOcam wrote:LOL, I don't even "ship" anyone in Eva even more so defending it, that's just my general observation/interpretation.

It really is not hard to see that the dynamics between Rei and Shinji in 2.0 were intentionally made to have more romantic tensions or at least much friendlier whether you like it or not (where do you think the Poka!Rei name came from?), with the whole thing about the bento and stuff. Comparing Shinji's reaction in NGE and 3.0, the former was outright "scared" by Rei III after the revelation, the latter? Not so much, he's a lot more bothered at the fact thay ReiQ isn't the Rei he saved than anything else, it's clear in his lines.


Thank you for this and for the screenshots, that really helps. The relationship between Rei and Shinji in old NGE is obviously more brother-sister or son-surrogate mom, and the thought of having a romantic relationship with someone whom he'd explicitly found maternal (not just "smells like mother") was never really there. And the thought of a maternal figure being something inhuman is far scarier than the prospect of an inhuman lover. The whole romantic angle is so blatant in NTE that it verges on disturbing, and top it all Shinji shows none of the interest in Asuka Shikinami in Rebuild that he did with Asuka Soryu in NGE (as abusive and dysfunctional as that relationship could be).

Either they're going for utter squick or Shinji really isn't who we think he is. We've seen him make contact with Rei in Eva-01 (the bug-eyed Rei that goes at Shinji in 1.0) but not Yui like in Episode 16. He's been in the Eva for 14 years but NTE-Shinji doesn't do what his NGE counterpart did in one month in Episode 20 - make contact with his mother's soul again. Fuyutsuki has to spell out that his mother's been turned into the "control system" of the Eva - note the absence of "soul" or "mind" in any form. Yui has turned into something like an electronic interface for Shinji instead of being the resident soul of the Eva. No wonder no lights fell on Shinji in 1.0, because the mother in the Eva had been pulled down to the position of not being able to protect him! (He'd have been crushed; end of story)
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Kendrix
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Re: Shinji - not actually Yui Ayanami's son this time?

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Postby Kendrix » Sat Dec 26, 2020 12:09 pm

View Original PostGhostlyOcam wrote:Comparing Shinji's reaction in NGE and 3.0, the former was outright "scared" by Rei III after the revelation, the latter?


I don't think the situation in NGE was that different. Part of why he didn't "know how to act with her" is that he wouldn't be sure to which degree she is the same person he's been fighting alongside of the whole time.

It's not rejection, it's being overwhelmed & confused and withdrawing as a result of that.
That bit early in ep 25 makes it pretty clear that he never stopped thinking of her as a human person ("[Kaworu] was just as human as me")

It's certainly a moment of weakness on his side where he could have been a better friend to her and didn't, but she was his last semi-fuctional positive relationship at this point so he had no one left to ask for advice & order his thoughts.

The difference was more that NGE Shinji saw her die & found out about the clone business almost right away while Rebuild Shinji was convinced she had survived. Makes sense that he would talk to her to try & see if anything of the person he knew is "still in there" but once he makes up his mind on that he doesn't want anything to do with ReiQ either.

View Original PostSettie wrote: not as some romantic move as interpreted by Misato or Asuka.


The very fact that they have several characters parse & describe it that way is one of the best examples of how that was an intended perception or at least not a far fetched one.

You could argue that they're just friends, but "motherly" is absolute bs that negates her entire character & her struggles as an individual.
Rei is a 14 year old with zero life skills she couldn't even parent a cactus.
The relationship is very equal; They're both introverts with little life experience, and Shinji spends just as much time protecting/helping/ doing nice things for her, in fact he's the one who initiated it.
And at first she only protected him 'cause it's her job & her whole problem at first was that she had no life outside of her mission. She had zero interest in him except in relation to Gendo until he went out of his way to befriend her.

Yui is a charming schemer from a wealthy background & the one who put Shinji into this whole mess to begin with (a much worse act in Rebuild than the original series if she knew the timeskip was coming). Rei is a lonely child soldier. living in a dump.. and the one person who doesn't give him grief over hating the job because she understands how that feels but physically cannot leave cause NERV basically owns her. (an aspect that is much more overt in Rebuild - see her conversation with Asuka. "I am bound to it, you can find happiness outside EVA", or the fishrank scene)

Again, I don't see the squick. She didn't raise him, wasn't raised together with him and is a very different person from Yui, no matter what her makers wanted to create. They wanted a copy or a mindless tool, but instead there is a mistreated neglected young lady.
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