Shinji in 4.0 Speculation Thread

[pwhodges]

And how the hell do you know that!? We saw a grand total of ten or so WILLE dudes, who all are part of Misato's personal retinue, there's nothing that indicate that the rest of humanity or even WILLE even know who the fuck is Shinji Ikari or what he has done

While I agree with your conclusion, I would add to the list of reasons to think that Kaworu's guilt-tripping him.

[ElMariachi]

Of course Kaworu guilt-tripped him, the biggest one being when he took off the DSS Choker and put it on himself even before asking Shinji if he wanted to go with him in EVA-13, after all that's what works best with Shinji!

[Ray]

@Mariachi

Ray, you completely blew out of proportion everything I was trying to say!

Sorry dude, It happens. I really put myself through the emotional wringer writing more of my Fic. I was asking some questions pertaining to both that, and Final.

I was talking on a meta perspective: since we know the deal with Gendo and the Rei clones, it was obvious that the "Rei" with the "EVA-00" was up to no good, that's why Shinji following her because of "his feelings" looked "selfish" while WILLE were trying to protect the world, but of course from Shinji's perspective, who doesn't know about Gendo, SEELE and their conspiracy or the deal with Rei and her clones, everything was pointing toward that Misato was telling him BS and that he should get out ASAP.

What I'm saying is, is there anything Shinji can do in Final to at least grow as a person and overcome this 'One of Two extremes' streak people seem to say he's on?

I'm just concerned, after what he wanted screwed humanity over twice, and this time killed the only real friend he had left in this new world. He might be stuck in this mindset for the rest of his life, where he believes he can't do anything for himself, and only follows orders and only does what he's told by those in charge of him. Never being able to make a decision for himself because he believes anything he wants can only hurt people.

I saw this movie once, where there was this character who went against orders and it got a lot of people he cared about killed. After that, he never questioned orders loyal to his cause to a fault, even when told to do horrible things. I don't want Shini to be trapped in that mndset.

Again, Basilisk said he tends to go between two extremes. I'm just asking, whats going to happen in Final to keep him from being trapped in the extreme of "Only what others want" for the rest of his life? After what he wanted screwed everyone over?

I was talking about when Shinji didn't listened to Kaworu that was literally begging him to stop and don't pull out the spears!

Oh.Oh! Nevermind then, forget all about that. Kaworu is an entirely different ball game and a far cry from Wille.

And how the hell do you know that!? We saw a grand total of ten or so WILLE dudes, who all are part of Misato's personal retinue, there's nothing that indicate that the rest of humanity or even WILLE even know who the f*ck is Shinji Ikari or what he has done besides fighting the Angels, hell even we don't know what the fuck he exactly did (or not!) that ties to what we saw of Tokyo-3's landscape!

I was playing devils advocate in that moment. But even taking your point of view and assuming he isn't responsible for N3I. . . I'll quote myself.

If Wille. . . didn't have a justifiable reason to hate him before the events of Q (assuming he isn't responsible for destroying the globe) then they definitely have a justifiable reason now. He gave his father a doomsday device, and its very likely a lot more people are going to die in Final because of his actions in Q! Maybe even more than those who died because of his actions in 2.0, especially if it its revealed he isn't directly responsible for the N3I.
[/quote]

[ElMariachi]

What I'm saying is, is there anything Shinji can do in Final to at least grow as a person and overcome this 'On of Two extremes' streak people seem to say he's on?

Dude, it's the last movie (maybe), the conclusion of Shinji's story, of course he'll find a way to grow-up and be a better person, I don't know how (I'm no medium) but Anno never made pointless Shaggy Dog Stories a la Texhnolyze (and no, EoE isn't one!), I don't see him beginning now.
And even with her colder and more professional attitude, I really don't see Misato or even Asuka letting Shinji self-destruct himself into becoming a male Rei Q, WILLE stands for "free will" after all.

I was playing devils advocate in that moment. But even taking your point of view and assuming he isn't responsible for N3I. . . I'll quote myself.

If Wille. . . didn't have a justifiable reason to hate him before the events of Q (assuming he isn't responsible for destroying the globe) then they definitely have a justifiable reason now. He gave his father a doomsday device, and its very likely a lot more people are going to die in Final because of his actions in Q! Maybe even more than those who died because of his actions in 2.0, especially if it its revealed he isn't directly responsible for the N3I.

Or maybe they'll be intelligent enough to see the situation as it was: that Shinji was abducted, tricked, mentally broken, manipulated and finally thrown away by Gendo Ikari once he served his purpose, I recall that for him the past 14 years didn't passed, and none of the old NERV staff now working for WILLE can pretend having the high ground: they were tricked as much as him by Gendo into believing that they were saving the word while they actually worked for the completion of his own agenda.

[Kendrix]

and none of the old NERV staff now working for WILLE can pretend having the high ground: they were tricked as much as him by Gendo into believing that they were saving the word while they actually worked for the completion of his own agenda.

And they are still "acting within expected parameters", according to Gendo. Shinji was just designated to be the triggerpiece by Gendo, but they are all parts of the gun, contributing their bits, dancing on the palm of his hand.


Shinji and Wille are in the same boat, and more importantly, they have the same goal.

Now, if the left hand stopped fighting the right, they might actually have a chance to bring Gendo's marionette show to a halt...

[ElMariachi]

Indeed, although first WILLE will have to realize that they were actually played by Gendo during the events of Q, apparently Mari already realized it when she noticed a 13th Angel.

[Darkwing]

I just have to wonder, does it really matter if Shinji learns to be okay with himself? I mean since most everyone seems to be dead, and the world is all messed up now, and it is kinda all Shinji's fault even if it's inadvertant.

Yeah, nice that you've grown as a person and are in a better place emotionally. Too bad you still caused the most death and destruction ever.

I'm not trying to go on about how evil Shinji is. It just seems to me though that it's kinda... Uh good for you, but doesn't actually make things better or change them. He can still be happy, but the world is still a wasteland and billions are still dead because he messed up.

[ElMariachi]

^
Well, first Shinji learning to be okay with himself doesn't seem to the the core message of NTE (unlike in NGE), but something more "broader" related to how interact and trust others.

Second, we're not sure yet of the true extents of the damages done to Earth: sure Kaworu imply that everything was ravaged and only an handful of humans survived, but it's contradicted by waht we saw of WILLE: there's no way they could had gathered and maintained such a giant fleet with a world reduced to a state akin to Fallout or Mad Max, just the enormous fleet of choppers resupplying the fleet must had come from somewhere, somewhere with the resources to build, fuel and maintain all those choppers as well as producing the supplies for the fleet!
And that's without even taking into account how all the ships of the fleet are in pristine condition, how every members we see are in good health, well fed and with uniforms in pristine state. Hell, just the fact they could build new armors as well as all the weapons and robot arms for EVA-02 is proof that they have a lot of resources available.

So personally I don't buy that the world is on the brink of death. In fact it wouldn't even surprise me if it's revealed in Shin Eva that outside of Tokyo-3 (which is I recall the freaking epicenter of Third Impact) the landscape is as normal as it was 14 years ago.

[Darkwing]

I dunno, you may have thought this through more than the actual writers... It's always felt to me like consistant plotting, and the world making sense took a back seat in Eva to the deconstrution of the characters and psychological issues. Well after about halfway through the series.

[unitM]

Kendrix, I feel it's an unsafe jump to say that WILLE and Shinji are in the same boat. WILLE is a counter-organization to SEELE. Shinji is a boy who is having trouble finding himself. Just because he should be fighting SEELE doesn't mean he is or he will. There is nothing in Q that suggests that Shinji and WILLE have the same goals. Asuka finding a broken Shinji at the end of the movie doesn't suggest this either.

[ElMariachi]

^
WILLE and Shinji want to survive (or at least Shinji will still want to survive after everything that happened, one genocidally nihilistic depressed boy was enough in EoE thank you), and I really doubt that the plot will leave Shinji alone in his corner, at least Yui will certainly won't allow it, so they are at least circumstantially in the same boat.

[Guy Nacks]

Realistically, I don't think Shinji really wants to survive at the end of 3.0 at all.

-"Everyone hates me and Rei is gone."

-"Mother is a prisoner in Eva Unit 01."

-"I killed however many millions of people in Near Third Impact."

-"I killed Kaworu."


...are just some of the shit that's going through his head by the end of the movie. Anyone wanting to survive after all that is delusional. He needs to be helped/encouraged by someone or else, he's just gonn remain catatonic and/or suicidal.

[Ray]

the world making sense took a back seat in Eva to the deconstrution of the characters and psychological issues. Well after about halfway through the series.

Yeah. . . I'm kindve worried Final is gonna fall into that by not explaining enough of what happened between 2.0 and 3.0.

[Chuckman]

Realistically, I don't think Shinji really wants to survive at the end of 3.0 at all.

-"Everyone hates me and Rei is gone."

-"Mother is a prisoner in Eva Unit 01."

-"I killed however many millions of people in Near Third Impact."

-"I killed Kaworu."


...are just some of the shit that's going through his head by the end of the movie. Anyone wanting to survive after all that is delusional. He needs to be helped/encouraged by someone or else, he's just gonn remain catatonic and/or suicidal.

Perhaps he simply lacks the constitution for suicide.

[Ray]

He did try to drown himself in EOE. I imagine he's going to at least attempt (but not succeed) in committing suicide in Final.

[Guy Nacks]

Perhaps he simply lacks the constitution for suicide.

He does lack it. Early in the series, he sits precariously on the edge of a cliff beyond safety barriers during his period of running away, so he's definitely thinking about it at that point but doesn't act. By the time EoE rolls around, however, it's highly suggested that he tried to drown himself near the beginning of the film, so now he's making actual attempts. You could also argue that him rushing to fight Zeruel in both NGE and NTE wasn't so much heroic as suicidal, not caring at that point whether he'd live or die in the attack.

Everyone has a breaking point.

[ElMariachi]

...are just some of the shit that's going through his head by the end of the movie. Anyone wanting to survive after all that is delusional. He needs to be helped/encouraged by someone or else, he's just gonn remain catatonic and/or suicidal.

And this time he has the chance to have people who cares for him and aren't terminally broken, unlike his EoE counterpart: Asuka while they are stranded in the desert, Sakura, maybe Misato (if she'll have the time between the Wunder reparations and the war against neo-NERV), and Mari (who will certainly make the time to give him some life lessons, even if it's in the middle of a battle, actually especially if it's in the middle of a battle!)

Actually what I hope is that Shinji in Shin Eva will have what the rest of the traumatized NTE cast could had and he didn't got in EoE: some time to recover and get his marbles back instead of having to act in a life or death for all of mankind kind of situation the day after he was reduced to the mental equivalent of a smoking ruin. Because I'm sure that if for example the killswitch for all of mankind was given to Misato the day after 2I or Asuka the day after she woke up after Bardiel (or the day after Arael if we goes for NGE), they would had gleefully pressed the switch to make the entire world suffer as they did.

[Sicarius VI]

He did try to drown himself in EOE. I imagine he's going to at least attempt (but not succeed) in committing suicide in Final.

Ray, that actually got me thinking about how maybe when the 3 of them(ReiQ, Asuka, and Shinji) are wandering the remains of Tokyo-3/Desert that Shinji wanders off and tries to slit his hands/wrists or something, then Asuka finds him just in time. Much like how Asuka in NGE does that.

As of NTE it is really only Shinji who has been mentally broken not the rest of the cast, although the rest have been put through some serious crap as hinted with the mostly unknown events that transpire during the 14 years.

[Rosenakahara]

Well its implied the rest went through it, moved on from it and became stronger people, Shinji has the problem of he wasn't there during the skip so he has to deal with all the bullshit and nobody has time to help him with his problems.

[Nuclear Lunchbox]

He needs to be helped/encouraged by someone or else, he's just gonn remain catatonic and/or suicidal.

Shinji's not a happy camper right now, that's for sure. He'll need a touch of perking up if we're to expect anything useful to happen with him in Shin, so perhaps we can expect something akin to Misato's "pep talk" in EoE.