Star Wars Episode II - A New Thread

[FelipeFritschF]

Oh, lookie here:

https://boundingintocomics.com/2020/01/ ... e-reviews/

[silvermoonlight]

Oh, lookie here:

https://boundingintocomics.com/2020/01/ ... e-reviews/

You know I did wonder about this as the audience likeability is way too high and it contradicts the fan websites and youtube feed (The feed being the middle ground smart reviews, not those bashing Rey for just for existing) and ignoring the faults of the director, writers and Disney HQ who deserve the anger for a really crappy job as the actors tried there best with this one and are not to blame.

[kuribo-04]

Oh, lookie here:

https://boundingintocomics.com/2020/01/ ... e-reviews/

I think those repeating phrases are just actually things most people will say.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

I'm not sure if the lopsided amount of positive review exclusive to the Rotten Tomatoes site is simply because of its popularity over other rating aggregate sites, or if it's because os people wasting their time targeting the site with these type of fake positives.

Positive audience reviews aren't unheard of, though. My own sister liked it, saying that it was cute. Which, uh... sure. Okay. I can't share that sentiment with her, but I'm glad she had a good time with it. For context, she also enjoyed the rest of the Disney trilogy (TLJ included), so she is more than checked out of whatever internet turf wars people are engaging in. Everyone else in my family hated it, though. My own father (who took us all out to see it for Christmas) turned to me and said "Man, they gotta stop making these."

While I still disliked the movie, I join my sister in being more than checked out of these stupid turf wars. The production of these Disney SW films is a clear rush job to make back the $4 billion Bob Iger spent on the property. It never really clicked with me, and probably never will after RotJ.

Here's to hoping someone makes their own derivative version of Star Wars but with blackjack and hookers, in the same way George Lucas made his own derivative version of Flash Gordon but with blackjack and hookers.

[kuribo-04]

The production of these Disney SW films is a clear rush job to make back the $4 billion Bob Iger spent on the property. It never really clicked with me, and probably never will after RotJ.

TLJ's development was two and a half years, not too far from the three years Lucas used to invest.
Sadly that wasn't the case for all of these.

[Gendo'sPapa]

Bob Iger was originally supposed to step down as CEO of Disney at the end of 2019.
Iger's original exit date is why Disney had such a banner year in 2019 - over $11 billion worldwide and over 30% of all domestic ticket sales all from only about 10 films- because he wanted all the surefire wins to be accredited to him.
Avengers: Endgame, Aladdin Remake, Toy Story 4, The Lion King Remake, Frozen II, Star Wars IX are all projects that were all guaranteed to each do over $1 billion worldwide regardless of whether or not they were any good. Most of these were NOT good films.
The key reason the Star Wars Sequel Trilogy was put on a four year timeline was because Iger wanted Episode IX to be the final film released by Disney under his watch. It was supposed to be his Final Note.
Then the development of Disney+ changed things and Iger extended his contract to the end of 2021. But the due dates for these films were announced and the production train already in motion and that wasn't going to change.
In 2020, Disney has a few definite wins - namely their two Marvel film and their two Pixars - but none are GUARANTEED to make over $1 billion worldwide. If any Disney film is going to hit $1 billion worldwide in 2020 it's going to have to get there by being a genuinely great movie. Disney will be focusing most of their attention on becoming king of Online Streaming with Disney+ for kids and Hulu for adults this year.
This year, Disney will also start altering 20th Century Fox into a brand since almost all but one series of films that were already in development 20th Century Fox projects will have been released by the end of the year. New "20th Century Fox" films are going to be announced and enter production this year but starting in 2021 all but one type of 20th Century Fox films are really going to be pure Disney releases.
Unless things change Iger will be out at the end of 2021.
The final film released under his time as CEO of the entire Disney Umbrella....

James Cameron's AVATAR II.

[silvermoonlight]

The final film released under his time as CEO of the entire Disney Umbrella....

James Cameron's AVATAR II.

I generally wonder how Avatar is gonna pan out once it lands as Dark Fate did not land well and I've always felt Avatars biggest issues going forward is A it was so long ago no one might care B media has moved on the white savour narrative is not as well-received anymore and C his female characters were kind of lame in the original on the alien side and rather cookie cutter in my view and they need a hell of a lot of beefing out to even stand up to the current trends. So this could go either way it could be awful and flop or be like Alita and be a pure gem.

[Gendo'sPapa]

The AVATAR sequels will be fine. No one will lose any money on them. Even if the two already shot sequels COMBINED only make a third as much money as the original film - not sell a third as many tickets but make a third the dollar amount - they'll pull in a handsome profit. AVATAR is still hugely popular in many parts of the world outside the US, particularly China where AVATAR is considered the Film Zero of China's explosion in building new movie theaters. AVATAR played on 10% the amount of screens that Avengers: Endgame played on and not because Endgame was that much more popular but because roughly only 10% of theaters now available in China were around a decade ago. Perhaps the films will underperform in the US compared to the originals $700 million + gross - though from what I've seen having travelled and spoken to people throughout the US I have the feeling 90% of the "AVATAR is forgotten" narrative is one primarily fueled by the small community of nerds online and is not representative of the general audience - circa a decade ago but internationally I think they'll play huge.

The only real unknown regarding the success of the AVATAR sequels is if either of them will retake the title of "The Biggest Film of All Time" and since I don't own stock in Disney that doesn't matter to me.

Terminator: Dark Fate was always doomed. The FOURTH attempt at making a good Terminator 3 in a row - especially one so closely after a universally hated film like Genisys - was never going to pull in an audience big enough to support the $200 million + production budget that film was given. The mistake for that failure is all on Paramount for making it with a pricetag that large. The movie should have been done on a micro-budget closer in style to the original film. Cameron's involvement in the film was purely in story creation & doing work in post. He never spent a day on set. His name was on the poster but nowadays audiences are savvy enough to know a credit saying "Produced By" is not the same as "A Film By". Dark Fate & Alita both were hurt financially because they were James Cameron adjacent projects and not actually by him.

Either way, AVATAR II & AVATAR III will turn a profit.

Either way, to connect it to Star Wars, whether or not people like AVATAR, the sequels aren't going to feel slapped together, rushed to meet a deadline and cater to the worst requests of bad online criticism like Episode IX does. Whatever the movies are will be James Cameron's intentions and I doubt the sequels will have the characters spend a majority of the runtime hunting for never-before-mentioned Wayfinders or whatever the fuck RISE was about again.

[kuribo-04]

Cameron actually wanted Avatar to be "the new Star Wars". As much as the first film was a simple story, Cameron knows how to do big budget blockbusters with some personality. Even if it's mostly in the visuals, I'd say he created an iconic world, and this can be expanded now. Maybe I'm biased because I watched Avatar when I was 13 and it blew my mind. But I believe it can bring some magic back.

I also still have to process that these are now Disney movies. It's kinda scary lol.

To fully get back to Star Wars, watching Knives Out reminded me that Rian Johnson is a great director, and I just hope he actually gets to do another Star Wars as was planned (if it annoys the fanboys...well, 1-doesn't matter 2-a dire need to not care after that fanservice strategy).

[Gazdakka Gizbang]

Terminator: Dark Fate was always doomed. The FOURTH attempt at making a good Terminator 3 in a row - especially one so closely after a universally hated film like Genisys - was never going to pull in an audience big enough to support the $200 million + production budget that film was given. The mistake for that failure is all on Paramount for making it with a pricetag that large. The movie should have been done on a micro-budget closer in style to the original film.

It was doomed the moment they thought killing off John Connor was okay. Leading up to that the removal of the sequels from canon and bringing Linda Hamilton back were all viewed positively. Everybody just knew something was going to be stuffed up along the way given Terminator's precedent, and it was a doozy. Had that not happened the movie could have survived on positive word of mouth and fared considerably better. It's just everybody behind it forgot the point of much beloved T2 and decided to open up with an Alien 3 remake. At that point I was hoping it would fare worse than Salvation, and thankfully that's what happened.

As for TRoS? What can I say? It sucked. I expected nothing less for the follow-up to a movie that smothered every plotline from its predecessor.

∆ The two main subversions in TLJ are Rey's parents being nobodies and Kylo killing Snoke.

Rey's reveal is the hardest truth she could be confronted with.

(This also draws attention to how formulaic the story had gotten, since we all expected a "X is your father" reveal. The actual reveal is also even more crushing since we were so sure Rey would get her happy family relation due to the formula. And it all works naturally, not like IX.)

Kylo's act not only makes it clear that he is worse than Vader (he does NOT join the light after killing the "Emperor") but also sets him up as the main villain for the last movie (something JJ ignored).

How are these subversions just for their own sake? They continue the drama from the prior film and lead to the next one.

Firstly, Rey's parental heritage was unnecessary because by the end of TFA it only mattered to the fans. Rey had shown enough development that she had accepted her parents were never coming back, and she was willing to venture off into the galaxy whilst abandoning that answer to her life. The only reason it was still a topic of debate was because people wanted an explanation as to why Rey could just magically do everything. Where did she learn all of this? How did she have such a strong affinity with the Force? In the end it's because she was written as a Mary Sue and Abrams used fan speculation to attempt appeasement, but that was a question they didn't have to answer (after TFA, if they did it better), and reviving it without giving her stronger flaws merely complicated things.

I just wanted to see the limits be established on her to make her more human, like how Luke Skywalker was a Gallery of Fail in ESB. Sadly, we never got that.

Secondly, Kylo would have made for a terrible final villain despite me liking Adam Driver and the character to an extent. It was already very low stakes with Palpatine, but Rey had already beaten Kylo by herself in TFA and drove a stalemate in TLJ where she could have killed him if she'd wanted to. That is not an exciting tale - he has literally nothing over her to put himself into a position of power. Contrast that to ESB, where Vader held all the cards and Luke had nothing. Palpatine was used because Rian killed Snoke, who could have had power over Rey given what little we saw of him.

[silvermoonlight]

It was doomed the moment they thought killing off John Connor was okay. Leading up to that the removal of the sequels from canon and bringing Linda Hamilton back were all viewed positively. Everybody just knew something was going to be stuffed up along the way given Terminator's precedent, and it was a doozy. Had that not happened the movie could have survived on positive word of mouth and fared considerably better. It's just everybody behind it forgot the point of much beloved T2 and decided to open up with an Alien 3 remake. At that point I was hoping it would fare worse than Salvation, and thankfully that's what happened.

As for TRoS? What can I say? It sucked. I expected nothing less for the follow-up to a movie that smothered every plotline from its predecessor.

That was the reason I couldn't bring myself to sit through it, like its bad enough seeing kids die on screen (Outside of horror) but he was a character which I grew up with he was a character I watched grow in the second movie and I just didn't want to watch him get gunned down for whatever reason even if its a butterfly effect idea. Also, there was a lot of talk about Connars character basically saying to the female lead who will be the new leader and mistakenly thinking that she is only important due to being pregnant (Or at least Sarah thinks she is) and only saying you're important because of who you are carrying the next male leader.

Now I get this is a direct stab at 80's/90's film treatment of women in film but to me, this feels like such a misjudged slap to the viewers face because what made T1/T2 brilliant in there time frames was the shattering of this mould and giving female characters better presence and stopping them being damsels in distress or girlfriends who do nothing and turning them into badass's who could rival their male counterparts like as a young teen watching that really mattered to me as did Ripley in Alien and Aliens which also busted the mould.

Its made very clear that John Connar learns everything from Sarah going forward so she is not a walking womb with no importance she will be his mentor, teacher his idol and even when she's gone he still keeps her photo even giving it up for Kyle Reese to keep even though it may be the only one he has and knowing that this man will be his dad and he has to send him forward knowing he won't be born.

[Reichu]

Before this thread gets any more confused, the non-Star Wars stuff goes here:

thread/19626/Tim-Millers-Terminator-Dark-Fate-2019/
thread/7202/Film-James-Camerons-Avatar/

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

As for TRoS? What can I say? It sucked. I expected nothing less for the follow-up to a movie that smothered every plotline from its predecessor.

So, the sequel trilogy was gonna suck regardless of which plot lines were kept from TFA.

I mean, really sit down and think about it. Anakin is born, prophesied as being the one to bring balance to the Force, which he does by defeating the Sith in Ep 6. Now regardless of whether or not the big bad Sith Lord in the sequels was gonna be Palpatine or Snoke, the fact that there is ANY big bad Sith Lord to begin with complicates the legitimacy of the prophesy and Anakin’s agency in both the prequel trilogy and the original trilogy.

There are two ways in which this whole idea of a sequel trilogy could have been done more interestingly and consistently with the greater theming and narrative arcs of the series as a whole.

1. Tell a story about the Jedi helping to construct a new Republic while also building a new Jedi Council for themselves. Even if it takes place 40+ years after the original trilogy, there would still be plenty of interesting political unrest and social tensions that the Jedi would have to go up against in maintaining galactic peace. It might sound a lot like how the Prequels played out, within terms of Jedi being sent on diplomatic missions and sitting down with each other for hours at a time discussing Force things, but it’ll be consistent with everything else already established in Star Wars before the sequels.

Or...

2. Have the Sith creep back up again in Ep 7, like they did with the Disney films, but this time have all of the characters actively question the legitimacy of the old prophecy around Anakin. This will add uncertainty to the story’s future, while also building a narrative tension that would be unique to the sequel films. Make the big reveal at the end of Ep 8 be that one of the new characters from Ep 7 is the new prophesied “One,” but we also find out that “The One” is kinda like Neo in the Matrix Reloaded movie, where Anakin wasn’t even the first “One,” that there have been many “Ones” in the past, and that there will be many more “Ones” in the future, because the whole endlessly looping prophecies thing is simply the ACTUAL way that the Force maintains balance with itself. Ep 9 is about the new “One” rejecting this loop for a new path for the Force to take. This method at least acknowledges that the new story has to shape the previous films in a different light in order to continue with cool new Sith vs Jedi stories.

But to do what TFA did kinda ruins the whole prophecy about Anakin balancing the Force. Even if Eps 8 and 9 were better able to stick with whatever “vision” was set by TFA, introducing the Sith in any fashion that was intended to be bigger and more climactic than RotJ kinda defeats the purpose of those original stories.

I mean, I guess you could have the Sith be weaker and less impressive in the sequels than they were in in the originals, but that would kinda be anti-climactic and lame, wouldn’t it?

[Gazdakka Gizbang]

So, the sequel trilogy was gonna suck regardless of which plot lines were kept from TFA.

I mean, really sit down and think about it. Anakin is born, prophesied as being the one to bring balance to the Force, which he does by defeating the Sith in Ep 6. Now regardless of whether or not the big bad Sith Lord in the sequels was gonna be Palpatine or Snoke, the fact that there is ANY big bad Sith Lord to begin with complicates the legitimacy of the prophesy and Anakin’s agency in both the prequel trilogy and the original trilogy.

There are two ways in which this whole idea of a sequel trilogy could have been done more interestingly and consistently with the greater theming and narrative arcs of the series as a whole.

1. Tell a story about the Jedi helping to construct a new Republic while also building a new Jedi Council for themselves. Even if it takes place 40+ years after the original trilogy, there would still be plenty of interesting political unrest and social tensions that the Jedi would have to go up against in maintaining galactic peace. It might sound a lot like how the Prequels played out, within terms of Jedi being sent on diplomatic missions and sitting down with each other for hours at a time discussing Force things, but it’ll be consistent with everything else already established in Star Wars before the sequels.

Or...

2. Have the Sith creep back up again in Ep 7, like they did with the Disney films, but this time have all of the characters actively question the legitimacy of the old prophecy around Anakin. This will add uncertainty to the story’s future, while also building a narrative tension that would be unique to the sequel films. Make the big reveal at the end of Ep 8 be that one of the new characters from Ep 7 is the new prophesied “One,” but we also find out that “The One” is kinda like Neo in the Matrix Reloaded movie, where Anakin wasn’t even the first “One,” that there have been many “Ones” in the past, and that there will be many more “Ones” in the future, because the whole endlessly looping prophecies thing is simply the ACTUAL way that the Force maintains balance with itself. Ep 9 is about the new “One” rejecting this loop for a new path for the Force to take. This method at least acknowledges that the new story has to shape the previous films in a different light in order to continue with cool new Sith vs Jedi stories.

But to do what TFA did kinda ruins the whole prophecy about Anakin balancing the Force. Even if Eps 8 and 9 were better able to stick with whatever “vision” was set by TFA, introducing the Sith in any fashion that was intended to be bigger and more climactic than RotJ kinda defeats the purpose of those original stories.

I mean, I guess you could have the Sith be weaker and less impressive in the sequels than they were in in the originals, but that would kinda be anti-climactic and lame, wouldn’t it?

Technically, no. You still had the chance to question the legitimacy of the prophecy in VIII Luke Skywalker could have been our conduit to that since he was just introduced at TFA's conclusion - explaining more of the Jedi from someone who was now a Grandmaster on the subject. But no, cranky, despondent tit-sucking hobo was the direction they took.

The question is whether "balance" counts as a single event which can be moved away from, or whether "balance" only means the good side or a balance of good and evil. I considered it to be a balance when only Darth Vader and The Emperor vs. Yoda and Obi-Wan was all that's left personally.

Regardless, while I'd prefer to just nuke the site from orbit and start over, the follow-up to TFA could have definitely been written into a better story than what we received. Finn's backstory and the entire child-brainwashing program went nowhere, Hux was turned into a clown when he previously had intimidation, Phasma had no story and only existed to be Finn's punching bag, etc. If it had been under the direction of Abrams entirely, I have no doubt we would have received the safest of safe reboots that challenges nothing and rehashes everything...but it would have been more consistent and Luke would have lived - possibly without getting humiliated - and I consider that the better choice.

If we had other directions to pursue post RotJ, my choice would have been based around Thrawn.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

Technically, no. You still had the chance to question the legitimacy of the prophecy in VIII Luke Skywalker could have been our conduit to that since he was just introduced at TFA's conclusion - explaining more of the Jedi from someone who was now a Grandmaster on the subject. But no, cranky, despondent tit-sucking hobo was the direction they took.

Your argument was that Ep 8 squashed all of the arcs that were established in Ep 7. Since questioning the legitimacy of the prophecy was never established in Ep 7, you’re argument about Ep 8 missing the ball in that regard holds little water.

Also, if it was really that important to Jar Jar Abrams, then he would have done this in Ep 9. Hell, he could have done it in Ep 7. But he didn’t. Instead he created a whole new planet and a whole new character so we can have a “Get Out Of Imperial Jail Free” card to be used once and then never again. He is just as guilty as Rian Johnson is in completely disregarding this aspect of the legacy of the originals.

[kuribo-04]

So, the sequel trilogy was gonna suck regardless of which plot lines were kept from TFA.

I mean, really sit down and think about it. Anakin is born, prophesied as being the one to bring balance to the Force, which he does by defeating the Sith in Ep 6.

Who says that prophecy actually meant anything (in the films themselves)? The Jedi weren't really competent.
I'd personally take Last Jedi existing over consistency with that prophecy any day.

I prefer seeing that prophecy as part of all the mistakes the Jedi make while raising Anakin. That he is the one to defeat Palpatine later on seems like a happy coincidence. Predictions and prophecies are always murky in SW.

[Gazdakka Gizbang]

Your argument was that Ep 8 squashed all of the arcs that were established in Ep 7. Since questioning the legitimacy of the prophecy was never established in Ep 7, you’re argument about Ep 8 missing the ball in that regard holds little water.

Your argument was that the trilogy would have been terrible following the events of TFA regardless of who helmed it because it did not talk about the prophecy, and I provided a solution in which it could still have worked. If you don't like it, that's fine.

To me, TFA left us with Snoke, Luke Skywalker, Rey's training, Finn's recovery, Phasma's fate and Kylo's training as interesting plot points. The end result of this by TLJ was Snoke died, Luke died, Rey didn't need training, Finn recovered only to do nothing, Phasma survived only to die, and Kylo's "training" was only to kill Rey.

I'm not sure about you, but that is not an easy movie to follow up. That's not praise for JJ - I expected nothing from this sequel, and the only surprise was that the script felt like it was stolen verbatim from some corner of the internet I ventured into. When you read some ridiculous fan theories that sound terrible, you don't expect them to be right.

Also, if it was really that important to Jar Jar Abrams, then he would have done this in Ep 9. Hell, he could have done it in Ep 7. But he didn’t. Instead he created a whole new planet and a whole new character so we can have a “Get Out Of Imperial Jail Free” card to be used once and then never again. He is just as guilty as Rian Johnson is in completely disregarding this aspect of the legacy of the originals.

I can agree with that. I took issue before on the subject of Holdo's ramming breaking universal rules, and JJ did the exact same thing with the hyperspace skipping. Hell, the convoluted trekking to find the Emperor's hidden cave was time which could have been better spent on character development.

SPOILER: Show

Rey was probably his greatest offender in terms of problems he created and didn't resolve. Forgetting that she has all the Force powers and new ones that essentially turn her into a paladin archetype, this was her last chance in the trilogy to be challenged or to experience hardship, and she received neither. The end result is that the Skywalker family is all dead and some Palpatine spawn stole their family name. Hooray...?

Who says that prophecy actually meant anything (in the films themselves)? The Jedi weren't really competent.
I'd personally take Last Jedi existing over consistency with that prophecy any day.

I prefer seeing that prophecy as part of all the mistakes the Jedi make while raising Anakin. That he is the one to defeat Palpatine later on seems like a happy coincidence. Predictions and prophecies are always murky in SW.

That depends on how much you like George Lucas, since he said it was when Anakin killed Palpatine. Even though I was okay with TFA, I generally prefer George's idea that Episode 6 was the end of the story.

[kuribo-04]

I love Lucas (despite not liking all his films, that change nothing) but also believe the films should be able to stand on their own. I see his statement as an interpretation, and one instantly interesting for being his, but I like mine more hehe.

[Gendo'sPapa]

Eh, Nerdstalgic spoke my mind on the issue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RIcKhYpZPc

Disney's issue is they've forced INTERTEXTUALITY to be the core of their business. It's working for now because almost every movie they released in 2019 was trash designed to reference older works and almost all made over a billion worldwide.
JJ Abrams made a sham of a film in The Force Awakens. It's not an actual movie. It's 135 minutes of callbacks and cutesy references to the original trilogy. Nothing has any thought put into it for story or character. BUT Abrams moves the movie so fast and the cast is so charming most people don't notice. It's a film that works on the surface.
Rian Johnson was dealt this hand with Episode VIII. Basically he was expected to pseudo-remake Empire and then leave things in place so the next person (Colin Trevorrow at the time who had already lazily pseudo-remade Jurassic Park) could pseudo-remake Return of the Jedi. Johnson did the right thing as an artist and storyteller and rejected that. Pushed the series into new things. IE. Johnson killing off Snoke is pure and allows the story to go down a new path so the trilogy wouldn't end with Kylo & Rey in a room facing off against an all-powerful Sith Lord. The third story really had the freedom to go anywhere.

JJ Abrams doesn't know how to tell a story. He really doesn't, he's a strong in-the-moment filmmaker who can make a moment exciting but he has zero understanding of character motivation or plot construction. Because Abrams doesn't know how to tell a story he just forced things back to Return of the Jedi.

So the trilogy still ends with Rey & Kylo in a room facing off against an all-powerful Sith Lord. It's just one who absolutely died almost 40 years ago.

[kuribo-04]

Nothing has any thought put into it for story or character.

I have to disagree there. TFA definitely was a nostalgia fest, but Rey, Finn, Han and especially Kylo were all characters I enjoyed, and who had potential. Johnson continued what Abrams had planted. Well Abrams and KASDAN (who did not write IX).

Johnson killing off Snoke is pure and allows the story to go down a new path so the trilogy wouldn't end with Kylo & Rey in a room facing off against an all-powerful Sith Lord.
So the trilogy still ends with Rey & Kylo in a room facing off against an all-powerful Sith Lord.

I still can't wrap my head around this being real.

Great video btw.