Pacific Rim

[Maru]

So, proving once again that the average American movie-goer is scum that doesn't deserve nice things:
Grown Ups 2 took in 10mil more than Pacific Rim this weekend (and got 5% on Rottentomatos).

Grown Ups 2

I have no idea what this is.

Anyway, I just saw it this morning. I liked it a lot. At first I saw a lot of parallels with Evangelion, but that was only really because I was looking for them, I suspect. When you get down to it, Mako and Rei really don't have that much in common aside from the haircut and the general outlines of their relationships with their respective commanding officers, though Mako's case was a hell of a lot more healthy and a lot less creepy than Rei's. I do suspect that someone in the makeup department is an Evangelion fan, though. Her haircut, especially the blue tips on the ends, struck me as a definite nod, but again maybe it's just coincidence. Raleigh was nothing like Shinji at all. Pentecost (what the hell is up with that name? Is that seriously a last name?) wasn't much like Gendo, beyond being the determined commander who is committed to his cause and will defy orders to do what he thinks must be done.

What I liked: the world building was excellent. The Jaegers were awesome. The Kaiju were also awesome. There were some great scenes in it, and the premise as a whole was great. Also, Ron Perlman is amazing.

What I took issue with:

SPOILER: Show

the movie was too short, and many of the characters were too underdeveloped. I know, I know, it's a summer blockbuster that you're going to because you want to see giant robots fight eldritch abominations from the Pacific Ocean. I get that. But can't you at least manage to fit in some character development for the supporting cast? Or the main cast, for that matter. Mako starts out by saying that she doesn't think that Raleigh is the right man for the job, and now all of a sudden she's buddy-buddy with him? And how is it that she's Drift compatible with him, when they specifically said in the beginning that the closer the bond, the better you are at fighting together? This doesn't ruin the film, but it's one of those things where if you think about it for a moment, it will disrupt the flow. It would have been a lot more fun to me personally if we'd had to see them struggle to connect with each other for a while. Honestly, I think there was enough material in here to make two or even three movies. I can see the reasoning for why they wanted to keep it short and punchy, but it felt kind of rushed, especially Mako and Raleigh's relationship, which went from "I don't trust you" to "let's pilot Jaeger together!" to "I love you." Kind of rushed. I do realize this is Hollywood and sometimes you do find people who connect that quickly, but it just felt a little weird.

None of that negates the fact that the movie was great and that people should go see it and support it. It really is very good. It's just that with a little bit more thoughtful work on the script and a willingness to play it just a little bit more slowly, it could have been great.

In re the complaints about the practicality of using things like shipping containers and container ships as improvised weapons... it made perfectly good sense to me, especially the containers. You know how if you're holding a roll of quarters in your fist when you punch someone, it hurts a hell of a lot more? It's like that, only Giant Robot sized. I see nothing wrong with using a container ship like a baseball bat either. Those things are pretty sturdy. They have to be; they sail over the grossly misnamed Pacific Ocean.

I don't think Raleigh needed to go Full Kamina, but he could indeed have used a touch more of that.

Ron Perlman really helped make the film for me, though. Every scene he was in was gold. I think he should have been in more, somehow, but the charm might have worn off eventually. In any event, he really added to the film, even if it was just a bit part.

[Bagheera]

What I took issue with:

SPOILER: Show

the movie was too short, and many of the characters were too underdeveloped. I know, I know, it's a summer blockbuster that you're going to because you want to see giant robots fight eldritch abominations from the Pacific Ocean. I get that. But can't you at least manage to fit in some character development for the supporting cast? Or the main cast, for that matter. Mako starts out by saying that she doesn't think that Raleigh is the right man for the job, and now all of a sudden she's buddy-buddy with him? And how is it that she's Drift compatible with him, when they specifically said in the beginning that the closer the bond, the better you are at fighting together? This doesn't ruin the film, but it's one of those things where if you think about it for a moment, it will disrupt the flow. It would have been a lot more fun to me personally if we'd had to see them struggle to connect with each other for a while. Honestly, I think there was enough material in here to make two or even three movies. I can see the reasoning for why they wanted to keep it short and punchy, but it felt kind of rushed, especially Mako and Raleigh's relationship, which went from "I don't trust you" to "let's pilot Jaeger together!" to "I love you." Kind of rushed. I do realize this is Hollywood and sometimes you do find people who connect that quickly, but it just felt a little weird.

I tend to agree with this. I think having one movie that focused on different parts of the jaeger program getting up and running in different parts of the world would be good; we could get to see the various jaegers really shine and we'd get to spend some time with the kaiju so that they'd be more than amorphous blobs we can barely tell one from the other. Then, after that setup, we could get the meat of this movie in a second feature, re-allocating the exposition in the front to character development for our main leads. That would work well, I think.

In re the complaints about the practicality of using things like shipping containers and container ships as improvised weapons... it made perfectly good sense to me, especially the containers. You know how if you're holding a roll of quarters in your fist when you punch someone, it hurts a hell of a lot more? It's like that, only Giant Robot sized. I see nothing wrong with using a container ship like a baseball bat either. Those things are pretty sturdy. They have to be; they sail over the grossly misnamed Pacific Ocean.

Would you rather a roll of quarters in your hand or a Benchmade knife? How about a kukri? A full sword? A chain sword that can double as a whip? It's a matter of scale.

As for the tanker: watch EoE. See what happens when Unit 02 lifts the frigate out of the water? Now realize that tankers are much, much bigger than that and do the math (scaling issues were also problematic with the bit in PR; container ships are in the 250-300+ meter range, and jaegers are supposed to be around 80m tall; no way one of them is using a container ship as an improvised weapon).

Ron Perlman really helped make the film for me, though. Every scene he was in was gold. I think he should have been in more, somehow, but the charm might have worn off eventually. In any event, he really added to the film, even if it was just a bit part.

That whole sequence was laughably stupid and unnecessary, but I can't fault it because hey, Ron Perlman.

[Redtophat]

Saw the movie earlier today and in short, I thought that the action and mechs were cool but everything else sucked.

[Defectron]

As for the tanker: watch EoE. See what happens when Unit 02 lifts the frigate out of the water? Now realize that tankers are much, much bigger than that and do the math (scaling issues were also problematic with the bit in PR; container ships are in the 250-300+ meter range, and jaegers are supposed to be around 80m tall; no way one of them is using a container ship as an improvised weapon).



That whole sequence was laughably stupid and unnecessary, but I can't fault it because hey, Ron Perlman.

Yeah I remember thinking "wait a minute, is that boat supposed to be like that? I didn't think the robot was that big" while it was laughable I still thought it was fun though, wouldve been better if it pulled a unit 02, and had the boat closer to its actual size and pile drive it into the monster or something.

[Bagheera]

Yeah I remember thinking "wait a minute, is that boat supposed to be like that? I didn't think the robot was that big" while it was laughable I still thought it was fun though, wouldve been better if it pulled a unit 02, and had the boat closer to its actual size and pile drive it into the monster or something.

Oh man, now I'm thinking of Unit 02's stunt live action, with the jaeger hurling the ship at the kaiju just as you describe . . . that woulda been coooooooooooooool.

[Maru]

Yeah I remember thinking "wait a minute, is that boat supposed to be like that? I didn't think the robot was that big" while it was laughable I still thought it was fun though, wouldve been better if it pulled a unit 02, and had the boat closer to its actual size and pile drive it into the monster or something.

You know what... you're right. When you're right, you're right, and you're right. Hurling a container ship at the Kaiju Unit Two style would have been a lot better than using the ship like a baseball bat, especially since it probably would never have worked in real life.

You know what they might have been able to use for a baseball bat though? The top part of a crane from the port. Well, maybe that wouldn't have worked either, but it's a tad more believable.

It wouldn't have worked because of how abbreviated the movie was and how few Jaeger fights we got to see, but if there had been a Scotsmen in the pilot corps, or someone on the team who had done Highland Games in civilian life, it would have been hilarious for him to have grabbed the top of a crane with a container still on the hook and used it like a hammer in the Highland Games. Spin, spin, spin, and release. The Kaiju would never know what hit it.

[Bagheera]

You know what... you're right. When you're right, you're right, and you're right. Hurling a container ship at the Kaiju Unit Two style would have been a lot better than using the ship like a baseball bat, especially since it probably would never have worked in real life.

You know what they might have been able to use for a baseball bat though? The top part of a crane from the port. Well, maybe that wouldn't have worked either, but it's a tad more believable.

Do both! The crane bit would have been pretty slick, actually; it'd show some serious thought had gone into the fights and how they scaled to things around them.

It wouldn't have worked because of how abbreviated the movie was and how few Jaeger fights we got to see, but if there had been a Scotsmen in the pilot corps, or someone on the team who had done Highland Games in civilian life, it would have been hilarious for him to have grabbed the top of a crane with a container still on the hook and used it like a hammer in the Highland Games. Spin, spin, spin, and release. The Kaiju would never know what hit it.

Yeah, I'm not sure I could see that happening, but it would have been cool. In the hypothetical two movie solution discussed above it might have been a nice bit, though.

[Squigsquasher]

Just watched it. My internet goes off soon so I'll keep it short, but I think I can summarize it fairly easily;

FUCK YEAH.

[Nuclear Lunchbox]

The movie has more holes than the Pope eating swiss cheese, but it was still awesome. Who cares if it's a popcorn movie where robots fight monsters? That's what the movie was, and it seems like the people that earnestly disliked it only went to go see the movie to hate upon it afterwards.

[Sailor Star Dust]

Ron Perlman really helped make the film for me, though. Every scene he was in was gold.

There's a funny little scene if you stick around for the credits. I make a point of waiting with movies just in case there's something after the fact.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

The movie has more holes than the Pope eating swiss cheese, but it was still awesome. Who cares if it's a popcorn movie where robots fight monsters? That's what the movie was, and it seems like the people that earnestly disliked it only went to go see the movie to hate upon it afterwards.

Eh, the only plot related hole was the one Gendo'sPapa pointed out. The rest is just nit-picky BS that's neither here nor there in understanding the plot or character progression.

And, yeah. Pacific Rim is like a multi-ethnic Top Gun with robots. The characters are solid enough to support a plot, and the world building is pretty cool. Sure, some of the characters were done with short-hand archetypes and stuff to fit a 2-hour running time, but I'd rather that then another 2 1/2 hour movie with failed iconography and boring monologues about the character than actually characterization and the main villain having no rhyme to reason to kidnapping earthlings, or humping dogs. (Those would be the real "evils" of Hollywood summer blockbusters, people.)

[arkiel]

There's a funny little scene if you stick around for the credits. I make a point of waiting with movies just in case there's something after the fact.

Hannibal Chau lives, and goes off hunting for his missing shoe. That makes the movie even better.

[Bagheera]

Eh, the only plot related hole was the one Gendo'sPapa pointed out. The rest is just nit-picky BS that's neither here nor there in understanding the plot or character progression.

I love how it's only a plot hole if you say it is. But regardless the ending has to count, as events there are rather critical to the outcome of the film. The whole wall idea as well, actually, as it's rather central to the fact that the rest of the world isn't involved with the events at hand. The fact these things didn't bother you doesn't mean they weren't problematic.

[arkiel]

I got the feeling Blade-head walking through the Wall (which was supposed to repel Category IV kaiju) was supposed to be about the same as Knife-head (Category III, right?) tearing apart Gipsy Danger; an unexpected apogee of that particular category foreshadowing the arrival of a higher category.

[Bagheera]

I got the feeling Blade-head walking through the Wall (which was supposed to repel Category IV kaiju) was supposed to be about the same as Knife-head (Category III, right?) tearing apart Gipsy Danger; an unexpected apogee of that particular category foreshadowing the arrival of a higher category.

What puzzled me about the wall was that I never understood why the kaiju wouldn't just climb over it. I mean, they're all different, right? So why would anyone think it was a good idea to build a static defense that could easily be trumped by anything that could climb or fly? And if we've already seen a progression (I - IV), how does it make any sense to build a wall to handle only what you've seen when it's abundantly clear things are going to keep keep getting worse?

On another note I think the thing that most surprises me is the fact that nobody actually went down to the rift to find out how it works and why the bombs didn't shut it down. They've had years to suss this out, and nobody, public or private, sent a submersible down to do some basic recon? I would think determining whether or not the rift is two-way would be a top priority (and they had kaiju carcasses on hand, so it's not like they couldn't do some experimenting).

I realize this would have shut the movie down, as they would have quickly determined that it was two-way for kaiju and would then proceed to send a nuke through in a kaiju carcass, but still . . .

[Squigsquasher]

What puzzled me about the wall was that I never understood why the kaiju wouldn't just climb over it. I mean, they're all different, right? So why would anyone think it was a good idea to build a static defense that could easily be trumped by anything that could climb or fly? And if we've already seen a progression (I - IV), how does it make any sense to build a wall to handle only what you've seen when it's abundantly clear things are going to keep keep getting worse?

On another note I think the thing that most surprises me is the fact that nobody actually went down to the rift to find out how it works and why the bombs didn't shut it down. They've had years to suss this out, and nobody, public or private, sent a submersible down to do some basic recon? I would think determining whether or not the rift is two-way would be a top priority (and they had kaiju carcasses on hand, so it's not like they couldn't do some experimenting).

I realize this would have shut the movie down, as they would have quickly determined that it was two-way for kaiju and would then proceed to send a nuke through in a kaiju carcass, but still . . .

Simply put, real world organizations make similar blunders. I can forgive it as simple bureaucratic idiocy and the demands of the plot.

And between having a realistic early "let's just send the nuke through in a Kaiju carcass" ending and a scene where a Jaeger smacks a Kaiju in the face with a freakin' cargo ship, I know which I'd rather have.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

I love how it's only a plot hole if you say it is.

It's not my fault I'm the only one of the few who knows what a plot is.

There's also a difference between "critical thinking" and "nit-picking." One usually results in a well-rounded opinion of a work of art when its applied to such things, while the other results in funny YouTube videos.

[Bagheera]

Simply put, real world organizations make similar blunders. I can forgive it as simple bureaucratic idiocy and the demands of the plot.

Previous humor aside, not on that scale. When something requires that much time and effort and is truly a multinational effort, at some point someone's gonna point out the obvious. I could buy complacency (a la Attack on Titan), but what we're talking about here is willful stupidity. Not unprecedented in the real world, no, but unlike real life fiction needs to make sense.

And between having a realistic early "let's just send the nuke through in a Kaiju carcass" ending and a scene where a Jaeger smacks a Kaiju in the face with a freakin' cargo ship, I know which I'd rather have.

Sure, but I'd rather we had a movie that addressed both problems from the outset.

Freaky: Insulting people who disagree with you isn't helping your case. I'm well aware of what a plot is, thanks, and I'm pretty sure things that actively drive the plot -- the wall, the rift, the freakin' ending -- count as relevant.

Also, the items mentioned earlier are not nit-picks, since they are neither minute nor unjustified. They aren't necessarily plot holes, but that's a separate issue.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

Freaky: Insulting people who disagree with you isn't helping your case. I'm well aware of what a plot is, thanks, and I'm pretty sure things that actively drive the plot -- the wall, the rift, the freakin' ending -- count as relevant.

Also, the items mentioned earlier are not nit-picks, since they are neither minute nor unjustified. They aren't necessarily plot holes, but that's a separate issue.

I'm sorry, I shouldn't offend.

"In his Poetics, Aristotle considered plot (mythos) the most important element of drama—more important than character, for example. A plot must have, Aristotle says, a beginning, a middle, and an end, and the events of the plot must causally relate to one another as being either necessary or probable. Of the utmost importance to Aristotle is the plot's ability to arouse emotion in the psyche of the audience. In tragedy, the appropriate emotions are fear and pity, emotions which he considers in his Rhetoric." - Wikipedia

AKA, Aristotle makes it clear that the plot has one job and one job only: To highlight the important element of the drama. This comes at the expense of characters or even story, which are considered different from plot.

David Bordwell makes a clear distinction between plot and other elements such as story and characters in his book "Film Art: An Introduction." In it he states that narrative are made up of three elements: Presumed and Inferred Events, Explicitly Presented Events, and Added Nondiegetic Material.

The Plot only refers to the last two elements: Explicitly Presented Events and Added Nondiegetic Material.

The Story refers mainly to the first two elements, including the first element omitted by the plot while sharing the second element that the writer uses to set up the plot. These elements would be the Presumed and Inferred Events and the Explicitly Presented Events. The Added Nondiegetic Material isn't necessary in the story, because it has more uses to Aristotle's consideration of The Plot; being there to highlight the important elements of the drama.

In this case, the two dude becoming perfectly drift compatible is a plot hole because the plot in Pacific Rim used the drift compatibility as the main emotional thrust of the movie, AKA, to highlight the important parts of the drama. The writer did everything he could to explain it away, mainly be reducing the characters down to basic archetypes. (It's not wrong, I guess, in that sense.) But because it detracts from the highlighted drama of the film, it can be considered a plot-hole in Pacific Rim. (I'm not sure why you seem to be hung up on proving everything else is a plot hole when you have this bomb-shell right here to drop on me and end discussion.)

The wall? The Rift? The use of the cargo ship? Not so much. (Not sure what you mean by "The freakin' ending." Blowing up the bridge isn't a plot hole or even a nit pick. Using nuke is a bit extreme, but still not a plot hole.) The wall is there to establish that walls don't work against Kaiju. One could argue that they should have tried that before building robots to fight monsters, but how can you build a wall if the work is constantly interrupted by unopposed Kaiju attacks? And I can see some ways the U.N. was trying to be cost-effective by building a wall and retiring the Jeager program. A wall isn't as hard to maintain as a giant robot is. (I can't put any personal experience behind that claim, though.) And walls are less likely to be used as weapons against other countries after the Kaiju thing is settled. Is it funny and predictable when they find out it doesn't work? Most certainly! Does is detract from the highlighted dramatic elements that make up a fun action/sci-fi movie? Most certainly not.

The one-way blockage in the Rift is there to establish that the invaders only calculated their tactics from one perspective. They weren't prepared for a Jeager to walk in like that, they didn't have anything on their side of the Rift to counter a Jeager or anything... It was pretty obvious that they weren't thinking of a strategy that worked from every angle. And why would they? Their very existence suggests that their simplistic method of Rift building and Kaiju distribution has worked before in the past. If it hadn't they wouldn't be alive enough to even send Kaiju into Earth, igniting the plot of the movie. So even these nit picks can be casually explained away if someone (like me) bothered to put enough effort into it.

[hunterslullaby]

Isn't the "wall of life" just a latter-day Maginot Line? An ill-advised, easily avoided, and monumentally expensive response to the last attack, which prevents meaningful preparation for the next one? Of course it was a stupid idea, but I thought Del Toro's point was that the council had made a stupid decision; one that leaders have historically made.