Anime does not equal Japanese cartoons

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Postby Xavierla » Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:20 pm

I mean that unlike other cartoons, anime not only use very obscure and unusual angle shots, but they are constantly moving as well.

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Postby Ornette » Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:37 pm

Old shows like Mazinger, Getter, or even MSG mostly had very little movement, and nothing obscure or unusual about any of the camera angles. Stuff like that probably wasn't regularly incorporated into anime until the mid to late 90's, definitely not nearly as regular as it is since they stopped using cell animation around 2001.

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Postby Dream » Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:45 pm

View Original PostOrnette wrote:Old shows like Mazinger, Getter, or even MSG mostly had very little movement, and nothing obscure or unusual about any of the camera angles. Stuff like that probably wasn't regularly incorporated into anime until the mid to late 90's, definitely not nearly as regular as it is since they stopped using cell animation around 2001.


I thought they still did it with cell animation (not that i have any idea what that is), do they do it with digital means now?
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Postby Ornette » Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:59 pm

View Original PostDream wrote:I thought they still did it with cell animation (not that i have any idea what that is), do they do it with digital means now?

Completely digital, they may still hand draw and scan into a computer, but Fujifilm stopped making the high quality cells that animation studios used so the switch over to computers was inevitable. There's still cell animation done occasionally, I think Ponyo was all on cells, no idea how feasible that is.

Cells are transparent plastic sheets that animators draw and paint on. You can overlay many cells on top of each other, some being characters, some background, some bits of foreground, etc. Then you use a camera and take a picture of it. That's 1 frame of animation. Then you can move cells around overlay new ones, etc. Take another picture, that's another frame.

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Postby Dream » Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:04 pm

Hmm, hearing the process i can see why everyone switched to digital, doesn't sound like the quickest or most efficient process. Plus all the options digital has makes it a much more attractive method in itself, anyways.
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Postby Oz » Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:07 pm

It looks like the core of the problem is that what you are pursuing a definition of anime how you think it should be whereas we define it based on how it is actually used. That's how word definitions work - descriptively, not prescriptively.

All of the features that you claim to be anime's unique trademarks can be found in non-Japanese animation AND it can also be missing from Japanese animation. If you leave the definition so loose that it doesn't matter even if just one trademark you listed can be found in what you consider anime then we could call pretty much anything anime - even outside animation.
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Postby Fireball » Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:29 pm

View Original PostOrnette wrote:Old shows like Mazinger, Getter, or even MSG mostly had very little movement, and nothing obscure or unusual about any of the camera angles. Stuff like that probably wasn't regularly incorporated into anime until the mid to late 90's, definitely not nearly as regular as it is since they stopped using cell animation around 2001.

MSG had a few that played with the camera. You can tell the ones that Itano took part in pretty well from the usual rigid stuff. It's still early in development but it's where the expressionistic camera work took lift off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxHYf35rJa8


View Original PostDream wrote:I thought they still did it with cell animation (not that i have any idea what that is), do they do it with digital means now?

To add what Ornette said,

"Digital Ink & Paint" is long industry standart now. Everything is made on computer. Backgrounds are often hand painted and then touched up in photoshop. Line arts are drawn on paper and then scanned to be colored on pc.
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Postby Xavierla » Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:56 pm

Look that is as far as I am going here people. There is no way that I will ever say anime has to be made in Japan because there are distinct differences between anime and other animation styles. I am not the one being stubborn here.

All of the features that you claim to be anime's unique trademarks can be found in non-Japanese animation AND it can also be missing from Japanese animation. If you leave the definition so loose that it doesn't matter even if just one trademark you listed can be found in what you consider anime then we could call pretty much anything anime - even outside animation.


That is definitely not true. Mazinger Z's opening has more obscure moving camera angles in it's opening than a mickey mouse cartoon will have in 26 episodes.

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Postby Xard » Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:39 am

Xavierla, stop being idiot abusing no true scotsman fallacy left and right and just move the fuck on

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Postby Oz » Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:58 am

How am I not surprised that you simply skipped the main cruces of my post and just replied to less relevant parts that were more fit for your own agenda?

View Original PostXavierla wrote:There is no way that I will ever say anime has to be made in Japan because there are distinct differences between anime and other animation styles. I am not the one being stubborn here.

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"No you wouldn't. Oz's secret is he goes without food to buy that stuff. He hasn't eaten in years." - Brikhaus

"Often I get the feeling that deep down, your little girl is struggling with your embrace of filmfaggotry and your loldeep fixations, and the conflict that arises from such a contradiction is embodied pretty well in Kureha's character. But obviously it's not any sort of internal conflict that makes the analogy work. It's the pigtails." - Merridian
"Oh, Oz, I fear I'm losing my filmfag to the depths of Japanese pop. If only there were more films with Japanese girls in glow-in-the-dark costumes you'd be the David Bordwell of that genre." - Jimbo
"Oz, I think we need to stage an intervention and force you to watch some movies that aren't made in Japan." - Trajan

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Postby LeoXiao » Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:18 am

"Anime" is IMO not just produced in Japan, but produced with the Japanese demographic in mind. In fact, hypothetically speaking if you were somehow able to create an anime outside Japan but marketed primarily for Japanese (e.g. it is done in the Japanese language), I don't see why it couldn't be considered anime.

Let's take a film, First Squad, that was produced by a Japanese studio but released with both Japanese and Russian audiences in mind. If we were to modify things slightly and say that it was produced by a Russian studio, but everything else remains exactly same - same art, same bilingual release, etc., I would say that it is still anime because it was made with a Japanese audience in mind.

A show like the Last Airbender is not anime because even though it uses the art style commonly seen in anime, it is not made for a Japanese demographic.

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Postby Hunter21 » Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:28 am

View Original PostLeoXiao wrote:"...In fact, hypothetically speaking if you were somehow able to create an anime outside Japan but marketed primarily for Japanese (e.g. it is done in the Japanese language), I don't see why it couldn't be considered anime.


That already happens. The same Korean company that makes some cartoon for an American studio is just as likely to be making an "anime" for a Japanese studio. It's not uncommon for animation work to be outsourced to Korea as a cheaper alternative to doing it in Japan. This basically sets up a situation that everyone working on an anime (other than the managing director) is actually Korean.
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Postby Xavierla » Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:42 am

View Original PostLeoXiao wrote:"Anime" is IMO not just produced in Japan, but produced with the Japanese demographic in mind. In fact, hypothetically speaking if you were somehow able to create an anime outside Japan but marketed primarily for Japanese (e.g. it is done in the Japanese language), I don't see why it couldn't be considered anime.

Let's take a film, First Squad, that was produced by a Japanese studio but released with both Japanese and Russian audiences in mind. If we were to modify things slightly and say that it was produced by a Russian studio, but everything else remains exactly same - same art, same bilingual release, etc., I would say that it is still anime because it was made with a Japanese audience in mind.

A show like the Last Airbender is not anime because even though it uses the art style commonly seen in anime, it is not made for a Japanese demographic.


That actually makes more sense. It has to be made for the Japanese. I agree with that more than the idea that anime must be made in Japan. As long as it it's a cartoon made for the Japanese then I guess you could call it anime. The only thing is would an American company be willing to do that.

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Overdone really... B/

Postby Alaska Slim » Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:06 am

View Original PostXavierla wrote:I saw the link and I move towards the second definition but would like to make somewhat of an edit to it. I see anime as a style of art but a very diverse one that when you get down to it, includes detailed body parts and features,

Well for years, Anime was defined by really the lack of such features. Those things only tended to appear, if they existed at all, during "money shots".

That's kind of why weird hairstyling and unnatural coloring took off, it compensated for how the faces themselves were largely interchangeable.

View Original PostXavierla wrote:God I'm tired of hearing this from people, no one has given me good reason to why I couldn't pickup a pen or pencil and make an anime when someone who is Japanese could do it.

That's happened, or rather I should say, foreigners have produced works in Japan, for a Japanese audience.

Cowboy Bebop itself was a massive collaboration between Japanese, American and French nationals. BONES however (or was it technically Sunrise?) were the ones that did the actual animation, the collaboration was largely the music, though it did play a large part to how the animation was put together.

You'll also find Korean names turning up in anime, as more and more animation work is being outsourced to Korean sub-contractors. We in the U.S. also do it, Avatar: TLA, The Animaniacs, and certain seasons of the Simpsons were all animated in Korea, as labor costs being what they are, it's just cheaper to do that.

Further, you can argue Batman: Gotham Knight, and Afro Samurai don't quite qualify despite looking the part, as they were written by Westerners, for a Western audience. The same as Avatar.

The only thing is would an American company be willing to do that.

The market's too small (and too cornered), and animation costs too much. While like with Bebop, and perhaps you could say the Marvel animes, Westerner's can contribute, but a Japanese studio will have to take lead, unless you want to get fancy with Flash or some form of low-cost animation.
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Postby Oz » Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:25 am

View Original PostXavierla wrote:That actually makes more sense. It has to be made for the Japanese. I agree with that more than the idea that anime must be made in Japan. As long as it it's a cartoon made for the Japanese then I guess you could call it anime. The only thing is would an American company be willing to do that.

You know, that was actually said in one of the first replies to this topic. I continued the discussion assuming you had refused that point as well.
"I'd really like to have as much money as you have, Oz" - robersora
"No you wouldn't. Oz's secret is he goes without food to buy that stuff. He hasn't eaten in years." - Brikhaus

"Often I get the feeling that deep down, your little girl is struggling with your embrace of filmfaggotry and your loldeep fixations, and the conflict that arises from such a contradiction is embodied pretty well in Kureha's character. But obviously it's not any sort of internal conflict that makes the analogy work. It's the pigtails." - Merridian
"Oh, Oz, I fear I'm losing my filmfag to the depths of Japanese pop. If only there were more films with Japanese girls in glow-in-the-dark costumes you'd be the David Bordwell of that genre." - Jimbo
"Oz, I think we need to stage an intervention and force you to watch some movies that aren't made in Japan." - Trajan

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Postby Xavierla » Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:19 pm

View Original PostOz wrote:You know, that was actually said in one of the first replies to this topic. I continued the discussion assuming you had refused that point as well.


I wasn't aware of that. If it was mentioned previously in the discussion than I apologize. However what I don't get is why NBC or Disney would rather outsource their work to Gainax instead of just making he anime themselves. I think that with enough research, they could produce a cartoon that is targeted to the Japanese. Is these because of money or just because they do not know how to do this on their own.

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Postby Dream » Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:38 am

View Original PostXard wrote:Xavierla, stop being idiot abusing no true scotsman fallacy left and right and just move the fuck on


Man, i think this is the first time i have seen Xard being overtly hostile/abrasive instead of sarcastically so.

Also, don't know if this might be useful for the thread, but i kinda lost interest in the conversation somewhere around the half of page 3.
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It's labor & marketing. B/

Postby Alaska Slim » Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:26 am

View Original PostXavierla wrote:what I don't get is why NBC or Disney would rather outsource their work to Gainax instead of just making he anime themselves..

Because again:

1. Animation costs a lot to do, and Disney doesn't have much of the traditional animation resources it once did.

2. The Japanese market is small (relative to us), and heavily cornered. It makes sense to outsource to a studio who already has a foothold, and knows the terrain.
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Re: It's labor & marketing. B/

Postby Dream » Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:11 pm

View Original PostAlaska Slim wrote:Because again:

1. Animation costs a lot to do, and Disney doesn't have much of the traditional animation resources it once did.


I assume that with resources you don't mean money, since i'm sure Disney isn't short on that, so you refer to things like employed illustrators, inkers, colorers, and that kind of stuff?

Also, sorry if i'm saying something stupid, but i don't understand why the Japanese market being relatively small has to do with your second point (i'm terrible at economics)
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Postby busterbeam » Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:28 am

This post by Peter Chung is probably relevant to this thread http://www.pelleas.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1707#p1707
I'm curious, who doesn't consider Akira an anime and what is their reasoning? I've never met such a person myself.

Hiroki Azuma said that in one of his old Evangelion articles from the 90s. But I doubt he is a good indicator of what most of Japan thinks, the guy seems pretty opinionated and jumps to some very odd conclusions (not to mention the translation was kind of engrishy) www.ntticc.or.jp/pub/ic_mag/ic018/inter ... shi_E.html

THIS unrelated article however might be interesting (haven't read it fully yet but eh) http://journal.animationstudies.org/she ... ime-label/
View Original PostXavierla wrote:Look that is as far as I am going here people. There is no way that I will ever say anime has to be made in Japan because there are distinct differences between anime and other animation styles. I am not the one being stubborn here.

It's certainly quite easy to tell that a piece of animation is Japanese most of the time, even (hell often ESPECIALLY) the stuff that looks 'not anime-esque' to a western audience. Things like Mind Game and Dead Leaves are quite overtly Japanese-looking. Same goes for Panty & Stocking; someone familiar with anime should easily spot the "Japaneseness" of the compositions, the movement, everything. It's an obviously Japanese work that just has some Cartoon Network/Nickelodeon-inspired designs. These look 'western' in some ways, sure, but they're still great examples of the uniqueness of anime because they allow you to more easily notice the overtly "anime-esque" elements of something that doesn't use the stock "big eyes, pointy chins" style.

I think this separation between "anime" and "those other cartoons" comes from how anime was marketed in the west by Manga Entertainment and other companies like that. "Like cartoons, but EDGY AND VIOLENT AND MATURE!". The idea that anime is 'different', the 'exotic' aspect, has always been a part of anime's marketing and it led to a lot of silly misconceptions.
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