Rei and the Moon

[Dr. Nick [ANF]]

Some have speculated that Rei's sessions in the Dummy System tube represent a 'backing-up' process, where her memories are copied into that Magi-like contraption that she is connected to, to be available to the 'next' Rei. Rei III wouldn't remember the battle, because that memory, of course, wasn't backed up...

Hmmm, I believe the main use of the tube-thingy is to record her personality patterns for dummy plug use, but maybe it can record her memories as well (though that would require a truly mindbogling amount of hard drive space :dizzy.

Originally posted on: 12-Feb-2004, 16:50 GMT

[Shin-seiki [ANF]]

Hmmm, I believe the main use of the tube-thingy is to record her personality patterns for dummy plug use, but maybe it can record her memories as well (though that would require a truly mindbogling amount of hard drive space :dizzy.

Yes, but note in Ep23', after the battle but before Rei III turns up in the hospital, there is this scene added:

Episode 23 - Fuyutsuki and Gendo standing before dummy plug system after Rei's battle with 16th Angel:



Fuyutsuki:
Rei... the product of my despair, and yet the object of your hope.
I guess it's impossible to forget her...

This seems to imply that the DP System plays a primary role in the process of bringing Rei back with a new body...

Originally posted on: 12-Feb-2004, 17:09 GMT

[tv33 [ANF]]

Some have speculated that Rei's sessions in the Dummy System tube represent a 'backing-up' process, where her memories are copied into that Magi-like contraption that she is connected to, to be available to the 'next' Rei. Rei III wouldn't remember the battle, because that memory, of course, wasn't backed up...

I don't think the copied memories were very detailed though. Remember when she went back to her apartment, she walked around the room as if seeing everything for the first time (Or in a De Ja Vu state) she even looks at herself in the mirror for a moment as if to say "Is this what I look like?"

And her line

Rei: Are these tears?
I am seeing these for the first time,
but it doesn't seem to me to be the first time.
I, am I crying? Why am I crying?

I think she has the emotion attached to people and objects, rather than detailed memories of them.

Originally posted on: 12-Feb-2004, 18:50 GMT

[RahOtaku [ANF]]

I do think you hit it on the nail when you said that Rei forgot her own origins. In #25, Rei-001 seems to be, of the three Reis, the only one who REALLY knows what's going on. I think it's very possible that Rei-001, like Kaworu, knew damn well what she was, but this knowledge was lost to Rei-002 for reasons I can only speculate upon.-Reichu-

This Rei who's stating this is Rei III, This is during Instrumentality. I'm sorry but Rei III Knows exactly who she is. So there would be no reason for Rei to be arguing with herself if she knows very well that she's not fully human.

Oh yes, that's a better way of saying it. Rei has an originally inhuman soul, but she developed a human mind. And that following line which Shin-Seiki posted, "not false, for I am I", shows that Rei considers herself to be truly human - or maybe more appropriately, she wants to think that way.-Dr. Nick-

I agree completely that she wants to be human. But as she knows she isn't human, so she is forced to chose which path of Instrumentality and choses Shinji.

Well, it appears that the soul transplanting process causes damage to memory (or mind in general): Rei-003 for example didn't remember what had happened in the battle where her previous body got crispy-fried.-Dr. Nick-

I don't believe the process is to blame. Instead it is Because the Soul is separate from the mind, as Reichu stated. So only memories that are deep enough to stain the soul are remembered. As example when Rei III cries while holding Gendou's glasses.
Her soul knows what's going on... But not her mind.

Rei is also said to be mentally unstable.-Sharpkun-

Maybe she is. Or maybe she's simply misunderstood. Many great people are claimed Neurotics when they are apart from the norm. I believe that Rei is simply misunderstood. In my opinion she is the most stable of the three pilots. Do you agree?

Some have speculated that Rei's sessions in the Dummy System tube represent a 'backing-up' process, where her memories are copied into that Magi-like contraption that she is connected to, to be available to the 'next' Rei. Rei III wouldn't remember the battle, because that memory, of course, wasn't backed up...-Shin-Seiki-

There is no reason to believe that Rei has a backed up memory. There is no proof that humans can be uploaded with information. Rei of course is not in any ways a machine. I believe instead that the soul is a copy and that like Identical Twins have phantom feelings about each other. I believe that the copied souls have a shared consciousness. They know the others exist because they feel them. And she knows she is the "Third"

Hmmm, I believe the main use of the tube-thingy is to record her personality patterns for dummy plug use, but maybe it can record her memories as well (though that would require a truly mindbogling amount of hard drive space-Dr. Nick-

That's a funny thought. Have you seen Chobits? I wonder where they would put Rei's hard drive

Fuyutsuki:
Rei... the product of my despair, and yet the object of your hope.
I guess it's impossible to forget her...

This seems to imply that the DP System plays a primary role in the process of bringing Rei back with a new body...-Shin-seiki-

That's funny, The DP system isn't even mentioned in that scene. Instead they only talk about Rei.

However I've always Interpreted the conversation to be about Yui. "I guess it's impossible to forget her...

Fuyutski tells us that Rei is the product of him losing Yui. And The object which Gendou uses to go to Yui.

Now that room is meant for copying it never has shown for Downloading information.

If you look closely the Tube is empty, so that doesn't even help establish that Rei 3 has ever been in the tupe
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Now I've replied I'd like you to look at this card.
Fuyutski agrees with Yui's ideas. And seemingly plots against Seele's plans. Now would Fuyutski agree with Yui's ideas, if Yui's plans were of Suicide? That just doesn't make sense.




Originally posted on: 12-Feb-2004, 18:57 GMT

[tv33 [ANF]]

Oh yes, that's a better way of saying it. Rei has an originally inhuman soul, but she developed a human mind. And that following line which Shin-Seiki posted, "not false, for I am I", shows that Rei considers herself to be truly human - or maybe more appropriately, she wants to think that way.

I am struggling with this issue.

On one had. I don't believe Rei wanted to become human. I think she saw herself as herself, that there is nothing else she could be, as she says “I am I”. The same way Shinji came to the realization at the end “I am nothing but I. I am I. I wish to be I.” She simply is, the technicalities do not matter.

But on the other hand she says “I've become me through the instrumentality of the links between me and others” the way a human is formed, not a God.

Mediate on this, I will.

Originally posted on: 12-Feb-2004, 19:24 GMT

[RahOtaku [ANF]]

Why not entertain the theory that Rei is of a human and a Angel's soul. One of Lilith and the other of Yui.

That's one reason why Rei isn't fully human or Angel.

She's both.



Ever wonder why Rei says Ikari (Shinji) is calling for her?

I believe it's the bond between mother and child, which is formed. This is the proof that I've been searching for.

You see, Shinji isn't calling Rei. Shinji is calling for his Mother. Shinji needs Yui.



Never once does Shinji ever call for Rei... Instead this is evidence that Rei finally realizes that She is a soul created from the souls of both Lilith and Yui.

If you like, please argue that Shinji is calling for Rei and not Yui... For one thing if Shinji can't move the big rocks on eva-01 to get in, i doubt he thought a girl his size would help. And Shinji also knows that Eva-00 is gone forever. I doubt Rei would be able to save Asuka with her bare hands.




Originally posted on: 12-Feb-2004, 19:39 GMT

[Dr. Nick [ANF]]

This Rei who's stating this is Rei III, This is during Instrumentality. I'm sorry but Rei III Knows exactly who she is. So there would be no reason for Rei to be arguing with herself if she knows very well that she's not fully human.

Reason or no reason, there's still an argument going on. And considering what is said in "the case of Rei Ayanami", I'm not sure if Rei-003 knows exactly who she is.

I don't believe the process is to blame. Instead it is Because the Soul is separate from the mind, as Reichu stated. So only memories that are deep enough to stain the soul are remembered. As example when Rei III cries while holding Gendou's glasses.
Her soul knows what's going on... But not her mind.

That's a new approach, and quite a possible one IMO. But what about these actually quite small, everyday things: for example, Rei-003 remembers where her apartment is located, she knows her way around the Nerv base etc: would you call things like these "memories deep enough to stain the soul"? And do you think a "new" Rei only receives the "old soul" and no "old mind" whatsoever?

There is no reason to believe that Rei has a backed up memory. There is no proof that humans can be uploaded with information. Rei of course is not in any ways a machine. I believe instead that the soul is a copy and that like Identical Twins have phantom feelings about each other. I believe that the copied souls have a shared consciousness. They know the others exist because they feel them. And she knows she is the "Third"

What makes you think Rei's soul was copied from an old body to a new one, instead of just transferring it? (Or did I understand your point wrong?)

That's a funny thought. Have you seen Chobits? I wonder where they would put Rei's hard drive

No, but I've seen this one goddamn hentai where...

... Ah, never mind.

That's funny, The DP system isn't even mentioned in that scene. Instead they only talk about Rei.

Yes, but Ritsuko states in ep24 that the place is the core of the dummy system.

Now I've replied I'd like you to look at this card.
Fuyutski agrees with Yui's ideas. And seemingly plots against Seele's plans. Now would Fuyutski agree with Yui's ideas, if Yui's plans were of Suicide? That just doesn't make sense.

When the fate of the world is at stake, a hero has to do what a hero has to do. Fuyu wouldn't like Yui to "disappear" that way, but he too understands that it might be the only option available.

And it's not a suicide technically. :smash:

Originally posted on: 13-Feb-2004, 08:00 GMT

[RahOtaku [ANF]]

Reason or no reason, there's still an argument going on. And considering what is said in "the case of Rei Ayanami", I'm not sure if Rei-003 knows exactly who she is.

She basically choses to be human. She rejects lilith and choses to be Yui. That's all I argue for.

That's a new approach, and quite a possible one IMO. But what about these actually quite small, everyday things: for example, Rei-003 remembers where her apartment is located, she knows her way around the Nerv base etc: would you call things like these "memories deep enough to stain the soul"? And do you think a "new" Rei only receives the "old soul" and no "old mind" whatsoever?

She goes around reading books... That's what she's done. She has about zero hobbies. Those simple everyday things would have to be learned. A person with Yui's mental capacity wouldn't have too much difficulty learning the layout of a base at age 14. But a 5 year old Rei 01 would definitely be challenged.

What makes you think Rei's soul was copied from an old body to a new one, instead of just transferring it? (Or did I understand your point wrong?)

I believe the soul is the same mixture of Lilith and Yui. However, the details in transfers would have to be figured out later. In other words, your guess is as good as mine on that one.

No, but I've seen this one goddamn hentai where...

... Ah, never mind.

Chii's on switch was no where but... the one place you would guess it... And the whole premis of the show is that only the one who truly loved her and is for her... Can touch it.

Yes, but Ritsuko states in ep24 that the place is the core of the dummy system.

I personally believe that There is a Rei body in every Dummy plug.

When the fate of the world is at stake, a hero has to do what a hero has to do. Fuyu wouldn't like Yui to "disappear" that way, but he too understands that it might be the only option available.

And it's not a suicide technically.

A hero who kills the girl he loves since that's the only option... hmmm... I remember that book maybe... a quite sadistic book? Can you name that book? I forgot which one it was.

But, Why? is that the only option. Yui never says that she would die. She wanted her son to see "How bright the future would be."

And it's my opinion that the brightest future is not a childhood without your mother.



Originally posted on: 13-Feb-2004, 08:13 GMT

[Fuzzy Chickens [ANF]]

I personally believe that There is a Rei body in every Dummy plug.

Here, you can sit by me

She basically choses to be human. She rejects lilith and choses to be Yui. That's all I argue for.

There isn't a whole lot of rejection or choosing in episode 25, it's all just arguing with yourself and philosophizing... But she is rather uncomfortable with the idea that she's not quite human, I'll give you that.

Originally posted on: 13-Feb-2004, 04:21 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

There isn't a whole lot of rejection or choosing in episode 25, it's all just arguing with yourself and philosophizing... But she is rather uncomfortable with the idea that she's not quite human, I'll give you that.

I'm actually of the opinion that episode #25 is crucial for understanding Rei's character. But I will get into that in great detail when I post those ideas of mine I've been threatening to post for a while now. I'm closer to it than I was before, at least -- I just spent a ridiculous amount of time actually typing it up. The only thing keeping me from posting now is that I want to use a quotation from a private e-mail correspondence, but I'm waiting to get permission first.

Soon, lads and lasses -- very soon.

Originally posted on: 13-Feb-2004, 07:29 GMT

[Fuzzy Chickens [ANF]]

You should see my rants on the Master of Orion forums. I go into ridiculous technical detail about beam weapon damage dissipation and space efficiency and how pollution is calculated...

I swear, I must know more about MOO2 than anyone else who didn't actually work on it... and some people on this forum (Shin-Seiki, myself, etc.) have probably passed that point with regards to Evangelion, what with actually having seen all the episodes and whatnot (see my rant about the Newtype interviews).

Originally posted on: 13-Feb-2004, 07:51 GMT

[Dr. Nick [ANF]]

myself

Yeah, right... :drowsy:

"'I am significant!' yelled the dustball."

Originally posted on: 13-Feb-2004, 20:54 GMT

[Fuzzy Chickens [ANF]]

No, seriously. I have this one issue of Newtype where a bunch of people who worked on Evangelion say they haven't seen the whole series, didn't know what episode they were working on at a given time, etc., meaning we know more about Eva than they do. Cool, eh?

Originally posted on: 13-Feb-2004, 19:36 GMT

[RahOtaku [ANF]]

Animators don't tend to have time to do much else :bawling:

There isn't a whole lot of rejection or choosing in episode 25, it's all just arguing with yourself and philosophizing... But she is rather uncomfortable with the idea that she's not quite human, I'll give you that.-fuzzychicken-

No, she definitely rejects Lilith and choses her Human soul.



Originally posted on: 14-Feb-2004, 08:20 GMT

[NakedEYE666 [ANF]]

Why not entertain the theory that Rei is of a human and a Angel's soul. One of Lilith and the other of Yui.

That's one reason why Rei isn't fully human or Angel.

She's both.



Ever wonder why Rei says Ikari (Shinji) is calling for her?

I believe it's the bond between mother and child, which is formed. This is the proof that I've been searching for.

You see, Shinji isn't calling Rei. Shinji is calling for his Mother. Shinji needs Yui.



Never once does Shinji ever call for Rei... Instead this is evidence that Rei finally realizes that She is a soul created from the souls of both Lilith and Yui.

If you like, please argue that Shinji is calling for Rei and not Yui... For one thing if Shinji can't move the big rocks on eva-01 to get in, i doubt he thought a girl his size would help. And Shinji also knows that Eva-00 is gone forever. I doubt Rei would be able to save Asuka with her bare hands.

Honestly I don't remember The End of Evangelion well enough to say who Ikari-kun was calling for. But I do recall when Shinji was sinking into the angel how he called out for help, calling for Asuka, Misato, & Rei. Rei last... I doubt that Shinji thought Misato could do much help from where she was, it's just what Shinji does, calls out for help from the people he knows. I think Evangelion has a humanist aspect, Rei & Kaworu are godly beings, but having lived among humanity, they choose that sentimentality. I can't imagine Yui's soul being in Rei alongside Lilith. Though I admit that there's definetly evidence to support that, I don't know how I could explain it away. Though I don't think she chooses to be Yui. She chooses to be Rei. When Rei is 'showing Shinji insturmentality' under the sea, it's not Yui, it's Rei. Being who Shinji is, I don't think he would have objected to becoming one with his olé Mum, it would be an ultimate feeling of security. But no, it was Rei there.

Originally posted on: 13-Feb-2004, 22:28 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

Last night, another idea popped into my head about the Rei/Moon connection. (Random, I know.)



Pay close attention to Lilith's mask. Do those crater-thingies remind you of anything?



Originally posted on: 25-Feb-2004, 15:33 GMT

[HeWhoPostsStuff [ANF]]

Yes, I do recall it being mentioned someplace (I think in one of the manga "dossiers") about the craterlike impressions in Lilith's mask...I wasn't sure what to make of it though. After all, if we assume that meteorites made those craters in that mask, then that would mean that Lilith (or, at least, the mask she wears now) must have been exposed to them in space somewheres at some point...or (I think scientific theory says this) nailed with 'em way back in Earth's infancy...though I'm not sure when science says that Earth developed its atmosphere and such. One thing that always bugged me in regard to this, though, is that one shot of a spaceship flying around above Earth, with either a Nerv or a U.N. logo someplace on it (I forget what episode it's in)...this at least suggests that Nerv has access to space travel, and possibly space salvage...anyone have any insight on any of that?

Originally posted on: 26-Feb-2004, 08:45 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

Yes, I do recall it being mentioned someplace (I think in one of the manga "dossiers") about the craterlike impressions in Lilith's mask...I wasn't sure what to make of it though.

I dunno... Maybe it's just being used in the name of that complicated NGE Visual Vocabulary that Shin-seiki is so fond of. (Look up some of his past threads -- he's big on it. BIG.)

Lilith---Lilith's Mask---Craters]---[Craters---Moon---Rei

That doesn't really address the question of why Lilith (and Rei by extension, or vice versa) is being associated with the Moon in the first place -- though that's probably already covered by the stuff earlier in this thread.

After all, if we assume that meteorites made those craters in that mask, then that would mean that Lilith (or, at least, the mask she wears now) must have been exposed to them in space somewheres at some point...or (I think scientific theory says this) nailed with 'em way back in Earth's infancy...though I'm not sure when science says that Earth developed its atmosphere and such.

I'd have to do some research to pinpoint a date on that, since I can't remember anything offhand. As far as the other stuff goes... There's no way of knowing (AFAIK) whether or not Lilith was found with the mask or whether GEHIRN put it there. I'd probably put my money on the latter, since it has SEELE's mark on it, and SEELE was probably using that for their logo long before Lilith was unearthed. If that holds any truth, though, it really makes one wonder what would prompt GEHIRN to cover Lil's face with SEELE's mark in the first place.

One thing that always bugged me in regard to this, though, is that one shot of a spaceship flying around above Earth, with either a Nerv or a U.N. logo someplace on it (I forget what episode it's in)...this at least suggests that Nerv has access to space travel, and possibly space salvage...anyone have any insight on any of that?

Well, I have a high-quality screenshot of the scene you're referring to... (I have it labeled as being from Episode #07, though I'm not sure if that's right or not. I'd have to check, I guess.) But, erm, exactly what about the little space shuttle bothers you? And what does it have to do with Lilith's mask?

Originally posted on: 25-Feb-2004, 21:34 GMT

[HeWhoPostsStuff [ANF]]

As far as Lilith's mask is concerned, you're probably quite right that the ol' triangle-eyes logo's been around for awhile, seeing as it's found on the cover of the dead sea scrolls (as they're depicted in the manga anyway...though there's always the possibility that Seele stamped it on there after they got ahold of the scrolls, whenever that was). As for the other questions, namely why the spaceship concerns me and why Rei's associated with the moon in the first place, I came up with a really crazy idea about both of those some time back, but before I even bother to go into it, let me ask this: is there solid evidence, that is generally agreed upon, that Lilith was discovered in the Black Moon? Forgive me for asking so many questions which must be obvious to you guys by now, I've got a lotta catching up to do...

Originally posted on: 26-Feb-2004, 00:06 GMT

[Fuzzy Chickens [ANF]]

is there solid evidence, that is generally agreed upon, that Lilith was discovered in the Black Moon?

None whatsoever, although if the White Moon really existed, it's where Adam was found, so it would kind of make sense for Lillith to be in the Black Moon.

Originally posted on: 27-Feb-2004, 06:58 GMT