Rei and the Moon

[Shin-seiki [ANF]]

No comment on the picture I posted, Shin-seiki? I thought you'd be all over the symbolism in that one.

Well, I notice that the Moon is on Rei's side of the picture...
I think that this scene is linked metaphorically with the shot in 'I need you', where Shinji is on top of Asuka with his hands around her throat. The Rei/Shinji scene is about the merging together of everyone, and the absence of barriers between them, and the unconditional acceptance of all by all, while the Shinji/Asuka scene is all about the restoration of the real world of pain and rejection, and the barriers, both physical and emotional, between people... [/pretentiousness]

Actually, when I showed EoE to a bunch of friends, they all went "WTF!" right then. I think they didn't really 'get' the movie up to that point, but that was the point where they were like "This sucks!"...

Originally posted on: 09-Feb-2004, 02:29 GMT

[Fuzzy Chickens [ANF]]

I was still talking about the goodbye scene...

I know.

The Rei/Shinji scene is about the merging together of everyone, and the absence of barriers between them, and the unconditional acceptance of all by all, while the Shinji/Asuka scene is all about the restoration of the real world of pain and rejection, and the barriers, both physical and emotional, between people...

Hey, that actually makes sense... *bows to your greatness*

Originally posted on: 09-Feb-2004, 02:34 GMT

[Sharp-kun [ANF]]

I think that the White and Black Moons are called that metaphorically; BTW, didn't you come up with something that links the phrase 'Black Moon' to the extra-NGE Lilith tradition?

Might have been me.

Can't remember the details just now ,but in astrology, there is a "Black Moon Lilith". There's also an asteroid called Lilith

Originally posted on: 09-Feb-2004, 12:42 GMT

[MDWigs [ANF]]

The original plot for episode 24, as described in the 100% Newtype Collection, mentions the Moon as well (I think I've posted these all before somewhere, but here is the particular one of interest again).

Episode 24: The promised time, now: Rei is defeated. Her secret is revealed. The most powerful 12 Angel awaken, at last, and decend to Earth from the Moon. The Americas, along with the Eva unit-06 is erased from the surface of the Earth. Humanity learns futility against the Angels' absolute power. The promised time, when humanity will return to nothing, approaches. A human drama of hopelessness.

Originally posted on: 09-Feb-2004, 15:33 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

That interpretation doesn't mesh too well with the shot of Rei, Shinji, Earth, the Sun, the Moon, the black moon, and what look like asteroids.

I b'lieve those "asteroids" you're referring to are the red dots representative of souls in NGE.

Episode 24: The promised time, now: Rei is defeated. Her secret is revealed. The most powerful 12 Angel awaken, at last, and decend to Earth from the Moon. The Americas, along with the Eva unit-06 is erased from the surface of the Earth. Humanity learns futility against the Angels' absolute power. The promised time, when humanity will return to nothing, approaches. A human drama of hopelessness.

Wow, that's kind of fugged-up...

(Though if you have the rest of those translated plot synopses lying around somewhere, I'd certainly love to see them. )

Originally posted on: 09-Feb-2004, 15:57 GMT

[Fuzzy Chickens [ANF]]

No, they're not little red dots. There are no little red dots in that scene. I'm talking about those little gray rocks that form the "horizon" of that scene.

Hey, Wr. Wigs is back! Nice to see a familiar face. So the Angels come from the Moon, eh? Kinda inconsistent with episodes like Magma Diver, but okay...

Originally posted on: 10-Feb-2004, 08:43 GMT

[Dr. Nick [ANF]]

Hey, Wr. Wigs is back! Nice to see a familiar face. So the Angels come from the Moon, eh? Kinda inconsistent with episodes like Magma Diver, but okay...

Dude, you are confused. Officially.

Originally posted on: 09-Feb-2004, 21:51 GMT

[MDWigs [ANF]]

This is basically the entire contents of my "original plots of evangelion" text file.

***************** The Original Plots of Evangelion *****************
================== From "100% Newtype Collection ===================


Episode 1: People's reunion: The story begins with a two-car train moving
through the montain terrain of Hakone, headed for the city of Tokyo-3. On
board is the main character, Shinji Ikari. He has been summoned by his
father to come to Tokyo-3. Suddenly the trains stops. Through the
mountains and trees can be heard the sound of emergency sirens. Two
giant figures appear, before Shinji's eyes and begin a raging battle.
Misato Katsuragi appears and saves Shinji. The battle is between the
robotic giant "Evangelion" unit-00 and the metalic "Angel" Rajiel. The
unit-00 defeates the Angel, but not without heavy damage. The Angel
disappears into a lake and the damages unit-00 is taken back to whence it
came. Shinji, under the guid of Misato, is taken to underground
"artificial evolution" laboratory where he meets Ritsuko and Rei, and, for
the first time in years, sees his father. Shinji confronts the
Evangelion unit-01. He learns that he has been chosen to pilot it. The
Angel, Rajiel, appears once again. The unit-01 is prepared for battle, and
Shinji, clueless of what is going on, takes his seat in the piloting chair
under the orders of his father and the other grownups. The unit-01, though
unable to even walk straight, is sent to fight. In the dark of the night,
in the fortess city of Tokyo-3, the two giants clash and the people who
created the "Eva" see the true power of their own creation and are awed.

Episode 2: Unrecognizable ceilings: During battle, the Eva unit-01 goes
out of control and shows unpredicted strength. Shinji's will defeated the
Angel. After battle, the civilians' reaction to the Evas and Angels is
shown. For Shinji, it is the begining of a new life in an unknown land
filled with unknown people. The reoccuring fear from the battle. Misato
and Shinji's interaction.

Episode 3: The first telephone call: Shinji's new school. His first
friends there. A heavy battle in Tokyo-3.

Episode 4: 14 years, the first day: Shinji's birthday. But his father
holds no words of congradulation for Shinji. Misato's decision for Shinji.
A drama story of the people of "Nerv."

Episode 5: Rei, beyond the heart: Interaction between Rei and Shinji. The
fearsome power shown by an Angel. The Eva's defeat. The laboratory's
oncoming peril.

Episode 6: Deciding battle in Tokyo-3: A battle between human wit and the
Angel. The Eva's revenge. Shinji begins to understand the people of Nerv.

Episode 7: A man-made thing: A new man-made humanoid battle machine
besides the Evas. What happens during its test run. A different side of
Nerv is shown.

Episode 8: Asuka's morning arrival: Asuka, Eva unit-02, and Kaji's
arrival. Battle ships vs. a giant robot. A battle held on the deck of an
aircraft carrier.

Episode 9: A split second, hearts overlap: The Eva's first beside-water
battle. Shinji and Asuka's interaction. A double battle with 2 Evas.

Episode 10: In the still darkness: An inoperative laboratory. The sadness
of modern civilization deprived of electricity. A time suspense story.

Episode 11: Magma diver: For the first time, Nerv strikes first against an
Angel. An Eva is sent into a volcano, specially equipped to capture the
Angel. Battle in the magma.

Episode 12: An 18 second miracle: A highly explosive, unstoppable Angel
decends towards Tokyo-3 Absolute peril. Misato's high-risk plan.

Episode 13: What comes after fear: The great defeat Shinji had expected to
come. The breakdown of the Eva unit-01. Shinji gets trapped inside.

Episode 14: An illness that leads to death, and: A rescue from the damaged
unit-01. A drama of people. Shinji learns true fear and hopelessness.

Episode 15: Shinji, once again: After his recovery, Shinji's decision to
ride the Eva unit-01 once again. The Eva unit-01 is given an overhaul
remake job.

Episode 16: In the heart of the enemy: Shinji is taken into and Angel and
for the first time, communication is made. Part of the Angels' objective
is brought to light.

Episode 17: Asuka's 1st date: Asuka goes to an amusement park for the
first time. Misato's past. A romance comedy.

Episode 18: the choice of life: Shinji fights the Angel-controlled Eva
unit-03 piloted by his friend. The choice Shinji makes.

Episode 19: A man's battle: Asuka is heavily wounded protecting Shinji.
Shinji tries to prove himself to her. The Evas' first aerial battle.
Kaji's death.

Episode 20: Nerv's birth: The Eva unit-05 is sent to Nerv from Germany. A
story of what happened 15 years ago: The evaporation of the Dead sea, the
creation of Nerv and the Evas. A story of Shinji's father.

Episode 21: At least, like a human: An underwater battle around a sunken
ship. Shinji recieves a mental attack by n Angel. A story of Shinji's
mother.

Episode 22: The cat and the transfer student: The first humanoid Angel
(child with a pet cat) Nerv's accidental allowing of the Angel's entry
into the laboratory. Shinji's delima of fighting a humanoid Angel. The
laboratory's greatest secret is shown.

Episode 23: The Human Completion Program: The truth behind the Evas and
the Human Completion Program. Ritsuko and Shinji's father's plot is
revealed.

Episode 24: The promised time, now: Rei is defeated. Her secret is
revealed. The most powerful, 12th Angel awakens, at last, and decends to
Earth from the Moon. The Americas, along with the Eva unit-06 is erased
from the surface of the Earth. Humanity learns futility against the
Angel's absolute power. The promised time, when humanity will return to
nothing, approaches. A human drama of hopelessness.

Episode 25: Aluka, the promised land: The laboratory seeks the ancient
ruin, and key to everyting: "Aluka." The UN decides to abandon the Human
Completion Program and focus on the destruction of the 12th Angel.
Shinji's father opposes the idea. Shinji and the others stay in the
laboratory for Rei. A human dram of people's conflict over differing
objectives.

Final Episode: The only way: The ending. The laboratory's destruction and
completion to all the secrets and dramas. Finale.

-------------

Oliviers take.

On Tue, 7 Aug 2001 18:57:48 +1000, "MDWigs"
wrote:
>I got this from someone a while ago off the Eva ML. It details
>the "original" plots for each episode. Of course don't trust the
>translation fully. Re: Final Angel_s_. There were 12 of them.
>Where I think it says here the final 12th Angel. Anyway, enjoy.

Well, had they count the battles during the series, thay would have
seen that the "last one" couldn't have been the "12th one"... ;

>The battle is between the
>robotic giant "Evangelion" unit-00 and the metalic "Angel" Rajiel.

I think I'd spell the name "Raziel"...
(and of course, "shito" were supposed to be "Apostolo" in this draft
of the story)

>Episode 10: In the still darkness: An inoperative laboratory. The sadness
>of modern civilization deprived of electricity. A time suspense story.

There's an Apostolo as well in this episode, even if this translation
omitted it.

>Episode 13: What comes after fear: The great defeat Shinji had expected to
>come.

Er... I don't think he did. ;;

>Episode 24: The promised time, now: Rei is defeated.

I don't think so...
"Taoreru Rei" would rather mean something like "Rei collapses", "Rei
breaks down"...

>The most powerful, 12th Angel awakens, at last, and decends to
>Earth from the Moon.

So, they're 12 of them, actually...

>Episode 25: Aluka, the promised land: The laboratory seeks the ancient
>ruin, and key to everyting: "Aluka." The UN decides to abandon the Human
>Completion Program and focus on the destruction of the 12th Angel.

Actually, it could also mean that the UN wants to destroy "aruka" in
order to stop them. It can go both ways, in my humble opinion...

>Shinji's father opposes the idea.

... and this sentence would make more sense, I think.

>Final Episode: The only way:

It should be "The Only Neat Thing to Do".
Anno likes to use SF titles for his last episodes. ^^

There were 28 Apostolo ("Angels"), originally.
Adam was to be the first one, and 27 are supposed to awake during the
series.
Episodes 1 and 2: 2nd Apostolo (Raziel)
Episode 3: 3rd Apostolo
Episodes 5 and 6: 4th Apostolo
Episode 8: 5th Apostolo (Sachiel)
Episode 9: 6th Apostolo
Episode 10: 7th Apostolo (maybe "shatieru" (sp?))
Episode 11: 8th Apostolo
Episode 12: 9th Apostolo (probably "tureru" (sp?))
Episode 13: 10th Apostolo
Episode 15: 11th Apostolo
Episode 16: 12th Apostolo
Episode 18: 13th Apostolo
Episode 19: 14th Apostolo
Episode 21: 15th Apostolo
Episode 22: 16th Apostolo (the one who now know as "Kaoru")
Episodes 24, 25 and 26: 17th Apostolo-28th Apostolo

Enjoy

Originally posted on: 10-Feb-2004, 03:31 GMT

[RahOtaku [ANF]]

Now what would happen if that Hard Drive of yours crashed?

The whole liturgy of Eva ML would have been destroyed. Let's hope that doesn't happen

Rei's voice: Why do you have a false mind and false body?

Rei: Not false, for I am I.

Rei's voice: No. you are a human whose false soul was made by a man named Gendou Ikari.
You are a false object which is pretending to be a human.
Look, you have a dark, invisible, and uninteligible mind
within you, where the true you exist.

Rei has a soul that is made by Gendou. A soul which only pretends to be human. Something deeper than lilith is the real truth, since Lilith definitely is not made by "a man named Gendou"





Originally posted on: 11-Feb-2004, 08:57 GMT

[Dr. Nick [ANF]]

Rei has a soul that is made by Gendou. A soul which only pretends to be human. Something deeper than lilith is the real truth, since Lilith definitely is not made by "a man named Gendou"

That interpretation just opens a huge new can of worms. If Gendo & Nerv could make unique souls out of nowhere, why go through the trouble of imprinting human souls into Evas at all?

The way I see it (currently), is that Gendo was responsible for Rei's creation - in other words, it was his idea to transfer Lilith's soul into a human body (the line "this is the day you were created for" supports the idea that her creation was intentional). So, when Lil's soul was trasfered to Rei-body, the soul became in a way "new"; Lilith started to acquire human experience and human emotions, and little by little she became quite human herself (so much human actually, that she even forgot her own origins).
In my opinion the "false soul" line refers to this newer, human aspect of her. Rei has realized that she is not a human in the same way as other people. She is a "false human", and this false human part of her exists because of Gendo.

Hope that makes any kind of sense at all, I'm a little tired right now. And as usual, feel free to shoot this theory down if there's something terribly wrong with it.

Originally posted on: 10-Feb-2004, 22:11 GMT

[MDWigs [ANF]]

Now what would happen if that Hard Drive of yours crashed?

The whole liturgy of Eva ML would have been destroyed. Let's hope that doesn't happen

Well the Eva ML archives are back up, and that post in particular of mine was to the Japan.anime.evangelion usenet group back in august of 2001, so you can see that complete thread (and many others like it) using Google Groups.

I have got all my important Eva stuff backed up online though.

Originally posted on: 10-Feb-2004, 22:24 GMT

[RahOtaku [ANF]]

My question is who is oliver hague? For sure he's not Japanese. But he has some considerable language training and ability to get hold of scripts that never became evangelion.

Now what level of access was Oliver privy to??

What was the reason he had so much access?



Originally posted on: 11-Feb-2004, 13:28 GMT

[Shin-seiki [ANF]]

My question is who is oliver hague? For sure he's not Japanese. But he has some considerable language training and ability to get hold of scripts that never became evangelion.

Now what level of access was Oliver privy to??

What was the reason he had so much access?

He was a leading light on the Japan.anime.evangelion newsgroup. He dropped out of sight; maybe Wigs-sama knows what became of him... That group's archives are available on Google Groups.
It's become kind of pathetic lately, with lots of hentai-ish discussions about Rei or Asuka's body parts, but if you go back two or three years, j.a.e. was the happening place for intelligent discussion of NGE. I highly recommend digging thru its back pages; you'll find all sorts of interesting stuff...
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=...nime.evangelion

Originally posted on: 11-Feb-2004, 13:46 GMT

[MDWigs [ANF]]

He was the resident translator on the Japan.anime.evangelion usenet group during the late 90's early 2000, during its height. He's French, but is almost perfectly fleuent in both English and Japanese and professionally translates between all three languages (I think he was doing a full Berserk managa translation at one point).

He is a major Eva Otaku, so he buys whatever Eva merchandise he can (and so has access to all the liner notes, storyboard books etc.) and he also frequented most of the Japanese Eva forums (and from what I've heard, they are truely in another league of otakuism compared to us).

There was a time in the occidental Eva scene when the identity of the second angel was a mystery (a lot of people believed it was Lilith, but there was no actually proof). Olivier was the first to discover the Eva Carddass card showing Lilith as the second Angel and post about it (long before it was talked about on the Eva ML).

He's been out of the Eva scene for a while now (ever since J.A.E. started to decline) but he's always had my utmost respect and admiration.

Edit: Re: Olivier's fate. There was a particular poster called Disaster, and it was his fault really for why Olivier finally left the group. If you search for Olivier's last post (sort by date) you'll see why. I've emailed him a couple of times, but for all intents and purposes he is not discussing Eva anymore, which is a big pity becuase we discussed a lot of good theories together.

Originally posted on: 11-Feb-2004, 13:53 GMT

[Shin-seiki [ANF]]

Now what would happen if that Hard Drive of yours crashed?

The whole liturgy of Eva ML would have been destroyed. Let's hope that doesn't happen



Rei has a soul that is made by Gendou. A soul which only pretends to be human. Something deeper than lilith is the real truth, since Lilith definitely is not made by "a man named Gendou"

I don't understand how that one line about a "false soul" deserves to be taken as the last, definitive word on Rei's true nature, especially when, in the very next line:

Rei: Not false, for I am I.

she refutes that idea... Why is the first line to be given so much weight, and not the second?...

Originally posted on: 11-Feb-2004, 14:37 GMT

[RahOtaku [ANF]]

Rei does refuse that she isn't a false human.

however she doesn't refute that Gendou created her soul. She believes that she is human and that she is more than a tool.

In this process she rejects her creator... AKA> Gendou.

And choses Shinji, someone who I believe would have been one of her future love interests if she hadn't went splat into the sea of LCL at the end of EOE.



Originally posted on: 12-Feb-2004, 08:36 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

So, when Lil's soul was trasfered to Rei-body, the soul became in a way "new"; Lilith started to acquire human experience and human emotions, and little by little she became quite human herself (so much human actually, that she even forgot her own origins).
In my opinion the "false soul" line refers to this newer, human aspect of her. Rei has realized that she is not a human in the same way as other people. She is a "false human", and this false human part of her exists because of Gendo.

Hope that makes any kind of sense at all, I'm a little tired right now. And as usual, feel free to shoot this theory down if there's something terribly wrong with it.

Actually, I think you might be on the right track.

I don't think it's so much that Lilith's SOUL became "new" so much as it began to develop a new "mind" (kokoro). Soul and mind are different but interconnected ideas in NGE -- the soul is the basic unit, whereas the mind part seems to be what contains the memories, personality, impression of the self, etc.

I do think you hit it on the nail when you said that Rei forgot her own origins. In #25, Rei-001 seems to be, of the three Reis, the only one who REALLY knows what's going on. I think it's very possible that Rei-001, like Kaworu, knew damn well what she was, but this knowledge was lost to Rei-002 for reasons I can only speculate upon.

Originally posted on: 12-Feb-2004, 13:14 GMT

[Dr. Nick [ANF]]

I don't think it's so much that Lilith's SOUL became "new" so much as it began to develop a new "mind" (kokoro). Soul and mind are different but interconnected ideas in NGE -- the soul is the basic unit, whereas the mind part seems to be what contains the memories, personality, impression of the self, etc.

Oh yes, that's a better way of saying it. Rei has an originally inhuman soul, but she developed a human mind. And that following line which Shin-Seiki posted, "not false, for I am I", shows that Rei considers herself to be truly human - or maybe more appropriately, she wants to think that way.

"You are scared, aren't you?"
"No. I'm not. I am happy. Because I want to die. I want despair. I want to return to nothing. But I can't. He won't let me return to nothingness. Not yet. I still exist because he needs me.
But when everything is over, when I am of no use anymore... he will abandon me.
I've prayed for the day he would abandon me... But, now... Now, I fear it."

I think these lines show extremely well how human Rei has actually become...

I think it's very possible that Rei-001, like Kaworu, knew damn well what she was, but this knowledge was lost to Rei-002 for reasons I can only speculate upon.

Well, it appears that the soul transplanting process causes damage to memory (or mind in general): Rei-003 for example didn't remember what had happened in the battle where her previous body got crispy-fried.

Originally posted on: 12-Feb-2004, 16:00 GMT

[Sharp-kun [ANF]]

Well, it appears that the soul transplanting process causes damage to memory (or mind in general): Rei-003 for example didn't remember what had happened in the battle where her previous body got crispy-fried.

Rei is also said to be mentally unstable.

Originally posted on: 12-Feb-2004, 16:02 GMT

[Shin-seiki [ANF]]

Oh yes, that's a better way of saying it. Rei has an originally inhuman soul, but she developed a human mind. And that following line which Shin-Seiki posted, "not false, for I am I", shows that Rei considers herself to be truly human - or maybe more appropriately, she wants to think that way.

"You are scared, aren't you?"
"No. I'm not. I am happy. Because I want to die. I want despair. I want to return to nothing. But I can't. He won't let me return to nothingness. Not yet. I still exist because he needs me.
But when everything is over, when I am of no use anymore... he will abandon me.
I've prayed for the day he would abandon me... But, now... Now, I fear it."

I think these lines show extremely well how human Rei has actually become...

Well, it appears that the soul transplanting process causes damage to memory (or mind in general): Rei-003 for example didn't remember what had happened in the battle where her previous body got crispy-fried.

Some have speculated that Rei's sessions in the Dummy System tube represent a 'backing-up' process, where her memories are copied into that Magi-like contraption that she is connected to, to be available to the 'next' Rei. Rei III wouldn't remember the battle, because that memory, of course, wasn't backed up...

Originally posted on: 12-Feb-2004, 16:10 GMT