Rei was in love with Gendou???

[UberDirector [ANF]]

It also pays to remember what you wrote. If the Commander ordered her to kill herself.

How is it a means to an end, if she comes right back?

I see the problem now. I have been thinking that my previous post made this obvious and it has not. If Rei has been in fact playing NERV all along her cycle of dying is a great means towards accomplishing 3I. By allowing herself to die at the orders of Gendo, she is proving her loyalty to the organization. Loyalty that is neccessary if she is to discover the location of Adam, which is neccessary for 3I to begin. If she is replaced as the pilot of Unit00, she will no longer be able to maintain the close relationship with the head of NERV (Gendo) that is neccessary to attain said location.

Its is when there are about 40 other examples.

Can I use the population of the nation of Japan as my number?... It's probably higher than 40 by now.

Originally posted on: 09-Aug-2003, 06:36 GMT

[saiyajin prince [ANF]]

well that was rei2 but how about rei3? i don't remember her smiling.

edit:
i think the reason why Rei betrayed gendou in the end is because the Rei that was mostly with her (which is rei2) is gone. she's the third one and she barely know what had has happened to her. she doesn't remember gendou saving her or Shinji. she's a brand new Rei with a brand new attitude.


it's like Rei's love for gendo vanished in think air with unit 00

Same Rei, same memories and everything, only difference is that she doesn't have the emotions to go with those memories, an example is when she started to cry when she saw Gendou's glasses but didn't know why she was crying....everything that was in Rei II was in Rei III.

sooo.... Lilith isn't the second angel anymore???

No she's not, Both Adam and Lillith are sources of life, not angels, they were labled angels by SEELE or whoever to make it easier to class.

Originally posted on: 09-Aug-2003, 23:49 GMT

[Shin-seiki [ANF]]

I see the problem now. I have been thinking that my previous post made this obvious and it has not. If Rei has been in fact playing NERV all along her cycle of dying is a great means towards accomplishing 3I. By allowing herself to die at the orders of Gendo, she is proving her loyalty to the organization. Loyalty that is neccessary if she is to discover the location of Adam, which is neccessary for 3I to begin. If she is replaced as the pilot of Unit00, she will no longer be able to maintain the close relationship with the head of NERV (Gendo) that is neccessary to attain said location.[/B]

I dunno where you came up with this idea that TI was something that Rei/Lilith actively sought. I think it's clear that Rei was indifferent; she saw thru Gendo, i.e. that he was a manipulative bastard who treated everyone around him as nothing more than tools to be used and then discarded (Ritsuko, Shinji, and, most especially Rei herself), so that, at the crucial moment, she betrayed him, and left it all, that is, the outcome of TI and the fate of everyone, up to Shinji. When Shinji said 'let everybody die', everybody died. When he wished for the return of the AT Field, i.e. the end of HCP, he got that wish too. If she was motived by the desire to see TI come about, why did she acquiesce in undoing the whole thing?

Originally posted on: 10-Aug-2003, 01:37 GMT

[UberDirector [ANF]]

This brings up the intent of Rei in starting up 3I. Was it the Off switch or the Reset button?

If it's the off button, you end up with a pretty poor story that essentially consists of: Rei-"wow... I'm an idiot... oh well, time to end existence... never mind, I'll let Shinji do it."

The reset button on the other hand: Rei-"Humanity has sunk to an all new level of evil, so through my tribulations I have chosen a champion to decide it's fate."

Rei/Lilith/Second angel - being the source of life, probably dosn't want to see humanity get wiped out. So she chooses a champion that has the best chance of ensuring the continuation of mankind. Well... how do you go about that? How about spending 26 eps with them. Thus I believe that Rei's rejection of Gendo and acceptance of Shinji was not a spur of the moment decision made at the begining of 3I, but one that was the culmination of a search that she was participating in from the begining.

On Rei seeking 3I: 3I is coming one way or another. The angels are popping up and that means only one thing can happen. Rei has a choice to make. Let it happen by the angels, and have no choice in what happens... or fire it up herself and guide the outcome. Simple logic dictates that she would choose to do it herself.

Originally posted on: 10-Aug-2003, 02:01 GMT

[tv33 [ANF]]

When Shinji said 'let everybody die', everybody died. When he wished for the return of the AT Field, i.e. the end of HCP, he got that wish too. If she was motived by the desire to see TI come about, why did she acquiesce in undoing the whole thing?

I agree with Shin-seiki, she was indifferent as to what happened, she left it all up to Shinji.

she saw thru Gendo, i.e. that he was a manipulative bastard who treated everyone around him as nothing more than tools to be used and then discarded (Ritsuko, Shinji, and, most especially Rei herself), so that, at the crucial moment, she betrayed him,

As it relates to this thread, I would say it is important to mention that it was not until the very end that she betrayed Gendo. It is obvious she still had some feeling for him up till episodes 23, when she saw his smiling face before she blow herself up. And episode 25 when she said she feared that he would leave her.

Originally posted on: 10-Aug-2003, 02:50 GMT

[Shin-seiki [ANF]]

This brings up the intent of Rei in starting up 3I. Was it the Off switch or the Reset button?

If it's the off button, you end up with a pretty poor story that essentially consists of: Rei-"wow... I'm an idiot... oh well, time to end existence... never mind, I'll let Shinji do it."

The reset button on the other hand: Rei-"Humanity has sunk to an all new level of evil, so through my tribulations I have chosen a champion to decide it's fate."

Rei/Lilith/Second angel - being the source of life, probably dosn't want to see humanity get wiped out. So she chooses a champion that has the best chance of ensuring the continuation of mankind. Well... how do you go about that? How about spending 26 eps with them. Thus I believe that Rei's rejection of Gendo and acceptance of Shinji was not a spur of the moment decision made at the begining of 3I, but one that was the culmination of a search that she was participating in from the begining.

On Rei seeking 3I: 3I is coming one way or another. The angels are popping up and that means only one thing can happen. Rei has a choice to make. Let it happen by the angels, and have no choice in what happens... or fire it up herself and guide the outcome. Simple logic dictates that she would choose to do it herself.

One problem that I think you need to address to make your theory more plausible, is that there is no evidence that Rei ever figured out, until the very end, just who and what she really was.
For example, ep14:

Rei: The things I possess are my life and mind.
The vessel of a mind. Entry plug, the throne of a soul.

Rei: Who is this? This is me.
Who am I? What am I? What am I? What am I? What am I?

Rei: I am myself. This object is me, the figure which forms me.
This is the me that is visible, though it feels as if this is not me.
A strange feeling.
My body seems as if it is melting.
I cannot see myself. My figure is fading away.
I am aware of someone else.
Who is there before me?

This indicates that she (Rei II) is aware of that there is something enigmatic and unnatural about her existence, but it is a just a vague feeling that troubles her mind, but remains unresolved.
It's not until ep24 that there is any reason to suppose that she is finally starting to figure out what is going on. Until she witnesses what goes on with Kaworu in Teminal Dogma, I don't think she ever even heard of Lilith.
Finally, I think that to understand where her head was at at the crucial point in ep 26' when she betrays Gendo, we need to look at 'The Case of Rei Ayanami' in ep25. I think it's clear that this is concurrent with the part of ep25' where we see her by herself down in the basement:
ep25'


ep25


ep25'


ep25


That these segments of ep25 and ep25' are concurrent is indicated clearly by the fact that they both conclude at the same point in the story:
ep25


ep25'


Here's the whole segment (ep25):

--
The third character

Ayanami Rei, in her case,

Rei: Who am I?

Rei: Ayanami Rei.

Rei: Who are you?

Ayanami Rei

Rei: You are also Ayanami Rei?

Rei: Yes. The thing called Ayanami Rei.

Rei: All these are the things called Ayanami Rei.

Rei: Why are all of these me?

Rei: Because others call us Ayanami Rei.

Rei: Why do you have a false mind and a false body?

Rei: Not false, for I am I.

Rei: No. you are a human whose false soul was made by a
man named Ikari Gendou.
You are a false object which is pretending to be a human.
Look, you have a dark, invisible, and unintelligible mind
within you, where the true you exists.

Rei: I am I.
I've become me through the instrumentality of the links
between me and others.

Rei: I've been formed by interaction with others.

Rei: The interaction with people and the flow of time change
the shape of my mind.

Those are bonds?

Rei: Yes. Those have formed me so far, the thing called Ayanami Rei.
And, those will form me from now on.

Those are bonds?

Rei: But, there's someone else who is the true you.

Rei: You don't know her.

Rei: Because you don't want to see that, you are trying to run away.

Because of fear.

Rei: Because she might not have a human shape.
Because the present me might disappear.[/u]

Fear

Rei: One is afraid that the self will disappear.

Rei: Fear?
That doesn't make sense.

Rei: The Self's world will disappear.

Aren't you afraid?

Rei: The Self will disappear.

Aren't you afraid?

Rei: No, I'm glad.
I am the thing that wishes to die.
All I need is despair.
I want to be nothingness.

Rei: No, you can't.
You can't be nothingness.
That person won't let you be nothingness.

Rei: Still not allowed to return.

Rei: I've existed because he's needed me.

Rei: But, in the end.
I'll be useless.
I'll be deserted by him.

Rei: I've hoped for this day, although I'm now afraid.[/u]

Gendou: Let's go.
You've existed for the sake of today, this day, Rei.

Rei: Yes.

And,

The complementation
by the Instrumentality of Man
begins.

I don't see any support here for the idea that Rei (or Lilith within Rei) is actively seeking to bring about 3I, indeed it seems to me that she fears what is about to happen...

Originally posted on: 10-Aug-2003, 03:31 GMT

[UberDirector [ANF]]

One problem that I think you need to address to make your theory more plausible, is that there is no evidence that Rei ever figured out, until the very end, just who and what she really was.

This is only a problem if Rei has to play by the same rules as everyone else in the story. Which becomes highly questionable right off the bat with her appearence to Shinji in ep1. There are clearly two Rei's that have to be dealt with in the story. There is the shcool girl/mecha pilot Rei.... then there is the other one who likes to have philosophy debates and specializes in showing up in places she logically can't be. I believe that philosophy Rei is an extension of Pilot Rei that Pilot Rei isn't aware of until after the destruction of Unit00. I also believe that it is philosophy Rei who is acting on the wishes of Lilith, without Pilot Rei being aware for most of the time.

ergo the quote

Rei: But, there's someone else who is the true you.

Rei: You don't know her.

Rei: Because you don't want to see that, you are trying to run away.

Because of fear.

Rei: Because she might not have a human shape.
Because the present me might disappear.

.. indeed it seems to me that she fears what is about to happen...

Of course Rei fears third impact... she is after all part human. But being afraid of something dosn't mean that person isn't going to do it.

Originally posted on: 10-Aug-2003, 03:53 GMT

[Shin-seiki [ANF]]

This is only a problem if Rei has to play by the same rules as everyone else in the story. Which becomes highly questionable right off the bat with her appearence to Shinji in ep1. There are clearly two Rei's that have to be dealt with in the story. There is the shcool girl/mecha pilot Rei.... then there is the other one who likes to have philosophy debates and specializes in showing up in places she logically can't be. I believe that philosophy Rei is an extension of Pilot Rei that Pilot Rei isn't aware of until after the destruction of Unit00. I also believe that it is philosophy Rei who is acting on the wishes of Lilith, without Pilot Rei being aware for most of the time.

You certainly have come up with an original and imaginative take on the significance of the Rei that Shinji sees at the beginning of ep01 (not that I buy it; I just mean that you get some credit for coming up something new and interesting).
My own take on that is that once Rei/Lilith rejoins with the other Source of Life (Adam), she essentially becomes a God-like being (not necessarily with a capital 'G'), who is not really constrained by time or space; thus the Reis we see in ep01 and at the end of ep26', and who seem to exist simultaneously all over the world during 3I, are avatars of the Goddess-Rei who comes into being in EoE.

Originally posted on: 10-Aug-2003, 14:48 GMT

[tv33 [ANF]]

I think Shinji seeing Rei in the first episodes was one of those crazy things that can not be explained and is not meant to be. There are to many holes as to how it is possible.

She is in the hospital injured, and unable to walk out into the streets.

If it was a clone it would have been in the tank at Nerv, not to mention it would not be able to walk around with out a soul.

If some how Rei could project herself (This not really being possible any ways because there is not evidence to back it up, and she is still bound by the constraints of being human at this point.) why would she appear before Shinji, she had never meet him at that point, he meant nothing to her.

I say Shin-seiki has the only theory that comes close to makeing any sense when he says

My own take on that is that once Rei/Lilith rejoins with the other Source of Life (Adam), she essentially becomes a God-like being (not necessarily with a capital 'G'), who is not really constrained by time or space; thus the Reis we see in ep01 and at the end of ep26', and who seem to exist simultaneously all over the world during 3I, are avatars of the Goddess-Rei who comes into being in EoE.

But even then, I would ask, why would she go to the past? What happened, happened. It was already over and done with. To go back in time to simply look at Shinji for about 2 seconds seems pointless.

Originally posted on: 10-Aug-2003, 17:30 GMT

[Shin-seiki [ANF]]

I think Shinji seeing Rei in the first episodes was one of those crazy things that can not be explained and is not meant to be. There are to many holes as to how it is possible.
(snip)
But even then, I would ask, why would she go to the past? What happened, happened. It was already over and done with. To go back in time to simply look at Shinji for about 2 seconds seems pointless.

The short answer is that Anno is messing with our heads...

Originally posted on: 10-Aug-2003, 17:37 GMT

[tv33 [ANF]]

The short answer is that Anno is messing with our heads...

Well, he is quite good at it.

Originally posted on: 10-Aug-2003, 17:47 GMT

[willkill4food [ANF]]

Was the injured Rei that Shinji met in Episode 01 before he decided to pilot EVA01 the 1st or 2nd Rei? If it was the 2nd Rei, then the ghost of Rei that Shinji saw could of been the 1st Rei...and if the injured Rei was the 1st Rei...then I dont know what I am talking about...

-willkill

Originally posted on: 10-Aug-2003, 18:12 GMT

[GandalfsWhisper [ANF]]

Was the injured Rei that Shinji met in Episode 01 before he decided to pilot EVA01 the 1st or 2nd Rei? If it was the 2nd Rei, then the ghost of Rei that Shinji saw could of been the 1st Rei...and if the injured Rei was the 1st Rei...then I dont know what I am talking about...

Ritsuko's mother killed Rei 1 and as a result killed herself. The "ghost" of Rei 1 has always apeared as a child. However it isn't unbelieveable to asume that she chose to apear in Rei's current physical state (minus the injuries). It is quite possible that the ghostly Rei Shinji sees is either the pysical manifestation of the soul of Rei 1 or the soul of Lilith.

Originally posted on: 10-Aug-2003, 19:09 GMT

[saiyajin prince [ANF]]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by UberDirector
This is only a problem if Rei has to play by the same rules as everyone else in the story. Which becomes highly questionable right off the bat with her appearence to Shinji in ep1. There are clearly two Rei's that have to be dealt with in the story. There is the shcool girl/mecha pilot Rei.... then there is the other one who likes to have philosophy debates and specializes in showing up in places she logically can't be. I believe that philosophy Rei is an extension of Pilot Rei that Pilot Rei isn't aware of until after the destruction of Unit00. I also believe that it is philosophy Rei who is acting on the wishes of Lilith, without Pilot Rei being aware for most of the time.

The Rei you see at the beginning of Eva is nothing more than foreshadowing and eye candy to make te viewer more interested in what's going on. You see the same thing at the very end of EoE which means it's mostly there as representation of the beginning and the end.


Of course Rei fears third impact... she is after all part human. But being afraid of something dosn't mean that person isn't going to do it.

She's all human, has no angel DNA.

Originally posted on: 10-Aug-2003, 23:34 GMT

[UberDirector [ANF]]

She's all human, has no angel DNA.

ACK! You have seen evangelion right? I know you have! So how can you say that the physical body is all that defines what we are?

Originally posted on: 11-Aug-2003, 00:10 GMT

[Shin-seiki [ANF]]

The Rei you see at the beginning of Eva is nothing more than foreshadowing and eye candy to make te viewer more interested in what's going on. You see the same thing at the very end of EoE which means it's mostly there as representation of the beginning and the end.

I've never bought the idea that Rei's appearance at the beginning of ep01 and the end of ep26' are purely symbolic, if by that you mean that she isn't 'really' there. Especially with regard to her appearance at the end of ep26', I can think of a dozen different reasons for her to be there, and I think it's plainly obvious that she really is[/u] there...

Originally posted on: 11-Aug-2003, 01:36 GMT

[GandalfsWhisper [ANF]]

I think we'll never really know why Rei was there (unless there's some cannon material that I'm not aware of) but, I would kinda like to know who is apearing. Is it Rei as the pysical representation of Lilith's soul or is it the soul Rei, or perhaps it's the soul of Yui.

Originally posted on: 11-Aug-2003, 01:56 GMT

[Shin-seiki [ANF]]

I think we'll never really know why Rei was there (unless there's some cannon material that I'm not aware of) but, I would kinda like to know who is apearing. Is it Rei as the pysical representation of Lilith's soul or is it the soul Rei, or perhaps it's the soul of Yui.

As I indicated above, I think she's an avatar of Rei/Lilith; as for Yui, she's headed out into deep space in Unit 01, where, after a few thousand years alone, she'll probably be saying to herself "This is starting to get really old! What the hell was I thinking?!" She'll have at least a few billion years more of the same to look forward to...

edit: or were you refering to ep01? In which case please disregard all that stuff about Yui...

Originally posted on: 11-Aug-2003, 02:08 GMT

[tv33 [ANF]]

As I indicated above, I think she's an avatar of Rei/Lilith; as for Yui, she's headed out into deep space in Unit 01, where, after a few thousand years alone, she'll probably be saying to herself "This is starting to get really old! What the hell was I thinking?!" She'll have at least a few billion years more of the same to look forward to...

Ummmm....I thought Yui was removed from Unit-01 because we see Rei stand next to Unit-01 (The same Rei who slavaged the Souls in Nerv) and we see Unit-01 go gray. Then we see Yui rub Shinji's face as she floats DOWN into the sea of LCL.

I could be wrong, I would like to see what you think. I know what Yui said in the flash back, but it seems to not comply with the things I stated above.

Originally posted on: 11-Aug-2003, 02:42 GMT

[Shin-seiki [ANF]]

Ummmm....I thought Yui was removed from Unit-01 because we see Rei stand next to Unit-01 (The same Rei who slavaged the Souls in Nerv) and we see Unit-01 go gray. Then we see Yui rub Shinji's face as she floats DOWN into the sea of LCL.

I could be wrong, I would like to see what you think. I know what Yui said in the flash back, but it seems to not comply with the things I stated above.

Well, you bring up an interesting point: I think that when we see Rei appear before Unit 01 (as Unit 01 'shuts down'), that she is doing for Yui more or less what she was doing with Misato and Ritsuko in ep25', i.e. acting as a link or 'medium' to connect their souls to Shinji. Once she says her final goodbye to Shinji, I'm sure that she is 'back' inside Unit 01; the flashback to her conversation with Fuyutsuki makes clear that she intends to remain in EVA forever. I think you're reading too much into her 'floating down'; the point is that she is floating away from Shinji.

Originally posted on: 11-Aug-2003, 03:04 GMT