Series ending, movie ending... same? different?

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 3:59 pm

drgenestarwind wrote:Rei's body is produced asexualy from lilith, in order to be the first child she had to have been "born" roughly nine months after second impact. and to change bodies after the death of Rei I and Rei II her new body had to have been created at the same time, so it would have the same form...am i getting OT...



This has WHAT to do with the topic at hand?

Rei was created in 2005 -- sorry. (Rei 1 is 4~5 years old in 2010. Written right in the script.)

And Magami, Rei is definitely made out of Angel Stuff, though precisely how is never elaborated upon.

Originally posted on: 13-Jun-2005, 03:28 GMT

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Postby Joeshie [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 4:00 pm

Colossus wrote:I would have to say that the tv ending,and the movie ending are completely different.The original ending,the tv ending,was very bland for such a groundbreaking anime.From what i heard Japanese fans were upset that eva ended so..."quietly" so a movie remake of the last 2 or 4 episodes were made.Hence.."End Of Evangelion".Where everything was different,Shinji and Asuka[Possibly Rei?] were the only humans alive after the end of the world.Unlike the tv ending,which always gave me the impression that everyone lived,and had a "happy ending".



You do know that End of Evangelion was the original ending to the TV series right? They had to make a "cheaper" ending because Sega had pulled its funding from Gainax. There are many subtle hints within the TV series to show that the TV ending and End of Evangelion are just different perspectives on the same events.

Originally posted on: 13-Jun-2005, 03:53 GMT

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Postby Mr. Tines [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 4:00 pm

Soluzar wrote:Very different in style, I don't think anyone denies that. It's not a point thats often raised though, because people are too busy debating the content. Personally, I really wouldn't have ever been happy if the TV ending was all that there was. Why? The style. Too downbeat for an ending. I don't mind sad, or even tragic, but I like a little bit of "life" to an ending. Some activety.



More strangulation, less congratulations; is that what you're saying?

The TV ending, if that is all we had, would have been understated, but I found it gave closure and was entirely upbeat, even though we haven't the foggiest about what is actually going on in the objective world (or even whether the notion has validity) at that point. And the series would have been more just a curiosity, a piece of history.

The constrast in mood and tone between the two closing scenes is pretty absolute; a bleak ending without closure or resolution is one of the things that has kept this series alive in the minds of the fans.

Up to that point things have been marching pretty much in lock-step : even if different characters speak the same sentiments, key elements can be placed in parallel. But "Congratulations!" and "Kimochi warui." seem to come from different ways in the garden of forking paths.

Originally posted on: 14-Jun-2005, 08:18 GMT

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Postby Dr. Nick [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 4:00 pm

Mr. Tines wrote:a bleak ending without closure or resolution is one of the things that has kept this series alive in the minds of the fans.



EoE has quite a lot of closure; if you want to see a show truly without closure or resolution, watch Dragon Half (or more correctly called, Dragon 1/13).

Originally posted on: 14-Jun-2005, 08:26 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 4:00 pm

Or you can watch Berserk, which might as well have had the message "BUY THE MANGA" appear on the screen for a whole minute after the final scene.

Originally posted on: 14-Jun-2005, 08:37 GMT

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Postby Mr. Tines [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 4:00 pm

But, if we restrict ourselves to doing the "compare and contrast" exercise simply on the to complementary endings of Evangelion...

Originally posted on: 14-Jun-2005, 08:40 GMT

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Postby OMF [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 4:00 pm

Just on the matter of Shinji's choice about complementation in the TV ending. I'll repeat what I said in the Eva TV Ending Journal Or Something thread (which I shamelessly plug here!)

OMF wrote:I've heard a lot of debate as to whether Shinji has made a choice to accept of reject complementation here. You could put a slant either way on the images here. But I think to say that Shinji is making a choice about complemenation here isn't really correct.
Shinji has made a choice about himself. He hasn't made a choice to accept or reject complementation. He has, first and foremost, made a choice to accept himself. He has made a choice to cease despairing and to embrace hope. That's what this last section is all about I think. It's about Shinji regaining his lost hope, choosing life over suicide.
What Shinji accepting himself means for complementation...well, I'll leave that for another time?



Well this is another time I suppose. I'll clarify what I'm talking about here. It's important to look at what we're seeing here.
Image
Image
Note in paticular the mist, and dead trees, surrounding Shinji in these cuts. It is this, along with the stage setting that is blown away and replaced by the clear blue skies. Where have we seen this imagery before? We saw it in episode #25.

In episode #25 we are during Shinji's lamenting over Kaworu, given a flashback, or repeat, of Shinji's conversation with Misato by the lakeside at the end of episode #24.(1) Note in paticular the misty forground here. Now later in the sequence of dreamlike images we are shown a rather surreal scene filled with mist and dead trees(2).
Image
There is a similarity between the image of Shinji in (3) and the image of a dripping Shinji in #25' after his apparent suicide attempt(5). So it's possible that this surreal scene represents Shinji's suicide attempt by the lake! Also note that here, Shinji has some impression of Misato having been closeby, or having been there just recently(4). She left him there overnight apparently.

One might also conjecture a similarity to Shinji first apparent suicide attempt in episode #04. The (3)(5)(6) face shots and again the misty forest(7)
Image

So if the misty dead treescape represents Shinji's suicidal or depressive thoughts then his "choice" in the TV ending could be said to first and formost be about Shinji himself and not about complementation. He has chosen hope over despair, life over suicide. With this in mind, I think that the odds are that, following on from this decision about himself, Shinji will choose to end complementation, choosing life over euphoric oblivion.

Again I would like to stress that I feel Shinji's decision in the TV ending is primarily about himself and that any choice about complementation follows on from it. Evangelion could then be said to be a TV series advocating hope for those who are depressed or suicidal. It's OK for them to be here. They do have options. So to speak.

Originally posted on: 13-Jun-2005, 21:03 GMT

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Postby Dr. Nick [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 4:00 pm

OMF wrote:Shinji first apparent suicide attempt in episode #04.



Image

Thanks to you, I'm now seeing apparent suicide attempts everywhere.

Originally posted on: 13-Jun-2005, 21:31 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 4:00 pm

Well, the script DID bother to note the fact that Shinji was sitting there contemplatively at "a place famous for suicides".

Originally posted on: 13-Jun-2005, 21:39 GMT

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Postby Mr. Tines [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 4:00 pm

Dr. Nick wrote:Image

Thanks to you, I'm now seeing apparent suicide attempts everywhere.



Any more than the two we know about (and helpfully cited by OMF above)?

Originally posted on: 13-Jun-2005, 23:00 GMT

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Postby Hideki 13 [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 4:00 pm

Wow!!! Didnt notice the suicide attempts until OMF started to mention it. Also Reichu what is that spot called???

Originally posted on: 14-Jun-2005, 03:06 GMT

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Postby Dr. Nick [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 4:00 pm

Mr. Tines wrote:Any more than the two we know about (and helpfully cited by OMF above)?



Dude, I'm starting to think PenPen was about to commit suicide in ep. #06. He was standing on the balcony looking awfully determined...

But seriously, "depressive thoughts" do not equal "apparent suicide attempt". Have a little faith in teenage scum, will you.

Originally posted on: 14-Jun-2005, 18:26 GMT

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Postby Mr. Tines [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 4:01 pm

Dr. Nick wrote:But seriously, "depressive thoughts" do not equal "apparent suicide attempt". Have a little faith in teenage scum, will you.



Anno on Shinji (from the "confession" letter, as translated in vol1 of the manga 2nd edition):

"A cowardly young man who feels that his father has abandoned him, and he has convinced himself that he is a completely unneccesary person, so much so that he cannot even commit suicide."

I think we're expected to see him make a gesture towards doing it, but bottle out.

Originally posted on: 14-Jun-2005, 19:52 GMT

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Postby Reichu [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 4:01 pm

Hideki 13 wrote:Wow!!! Didnt notice the suicide attempts until OMF started to mention it. Also Reichu what is that spot called???



Uhhh... "a place famous for suicides"? Somewhere in Owakudani, I think.

Originally posted on: 15-Jun-2005, 08:34 GMT

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Postby Mr. Tines [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 4:01 pm

Replying in a more suitable thread to this digression

Reichu wrote:if one is to identify the two endings, "I Need You" clearly comes after "Congratulations".



Yes; since the closing scene appears to be in objective reality, that ordering follows from the hypothesis of identity. It's just that I don't see anything as positive as his decision:-
Shinji: I am I. I wish to be I.
I want to stay here!
I can stay here!
(even setting aside the issue what "here" might mean in the context of when it is uttered in ep26); nor anything in the way of obvious affirmation as:-
People: Congratulations!
GNR starts spilling LCL/blood before we see Shinji & Rei together in the LCL sea; and his reaction throughout lacks any conviction or enthusiasm - how he is shown is more like he's going with the flow (like a dead fish), giving the answers his guardian angels seem to want, rather than making a mould-shattering decision of his own.

The nearest thing to the "I am I" is his immensely more guarded farewell to Yui
Shinji:
I still don't know where to find happiness...
But I'll continue to think about whether it's good to be here... whether it was good to have been born.
But in the end, it's just realizing the obvious over and over again.
Because I am myself.
well after Complementation (and GNR) has collapsed. There is no-one left, then, to affirm his decision, to congratulate him.

Reichu wrote:The Shinji who has discovered himself in the surreal studio seems much the same as the Shinji who decides, with Rei and Kaworu's council, that Instrumentality sucks.



More that the separation into individuals is a lesser of evils
Shinji:
But that's just pretending - a self-intoxicating belief... like a prayer.
It can't possibly last forever.
Sooner or later I'll be betrayed... And they'll leave me.
Reichu wrote:If EoE abruptly ended with Shinji's personal revelation and didn't show the aftermath of 3I, would that make it any more "upbeat"?



There was no point of revelation, no "Aha!" moment, shown, so no clear moment to draw the curtain to match EoTV. Nor, in the finale, any indication that the Shinji who returned was any the better for his experiences and the revelatory insights they offered him.

Actually, the only place to have cut EoE short and left it on the upbeat would be about the time that Maya was subsumed, but that's a different topic.

Originally posted on: 14-Jun-2005, 21:14 GMT

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Postby MonkeyBoy0314 [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 4:01 pm

to stay on topic of this thread:

I read on some website that 25-26 and 25'-26' are occurring at the exact same time, and they are, in fact, the exact same thing, just represented in two completely different ways.

So, in a way, they are kinda synching up, like that thing with Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon and The Wizard of Oz Image (sorry, needed to add the rock 'n roll reference Image )

Originally posted on: 16-Jun-2005, 21:57 GMT

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Postby Shin-seiki [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 4:01 pm

MonkeyBoy0314 wrote:to stay on topic of this thread:

I read on some website that 25-26 and 25'-26' are occurring at the exact same time, and they are, in fact, the exact same thing, just represented in two completely different ways.

You can read that here in any number of threads on this topic.

Originally posted on: 16-Jun-2005, 22:03 GMT

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Postby Mr. Tines [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 4:01 pm

@MonkeyBoy0314

Indeed in the post#3 above, there's the link to MDWigs take on the subject, which is the definitive statement for the strong identification, and which is the page you're likely to be alluding to.

Originally posted on: 16-Jun-2005, 22:08 GMT

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Postby MonkeyBoy0314 [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 4:01 pm

Mr. Tines wrote:@MonkeyBoy0314

Indeed in the post#3 above, there's the link to MDWigs take on the subject, which is the definitive statement for the strong identification, and which is the page you're likely to be alluding to.


that was where i read it from. thanks, dude Image

Originally posted on: 16-Jun-2005, 22:10 GMT

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Postby Soluzar [ANF] » Sat Oct 20, 2007 4:01 pm

MonkeyBoy0314 wrote:I read on some website that 25-26 and 25'-26' are occurring at the exact same time, and they are, in fact, the exact same thing, just represented in two completely different ways.

The important thing is, do you agree? I do, but what about your opinion?

So, in a way, they are kinda synching up, like that thing with Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon and The Wizard of Oz Image (sorry, needed to add the rock 'n roll reference Image )

Would you mind PMing me to let me know what you mean about this? I love that Album, but I have no idea what you mean about the Wizard of Oz.

Originally posted on: 16-Jun-2005, 23:36 GMT


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