What's up with The End of Evangelion?

[Reichu [ANF]]

Omnibus reply time.

Just one or two points it might be helpful to address. Although Gendo, Yui, Fuyutsuki, and Kaworu are all missing from the picture, only Gendo is singled out as inelligible for return. So apparently if we strictly interpret the card there would be no reason why the others who are absent could not return.

For my part, I didn't cite the card. Dr. Scott did.

Also, I find it sort of amusing that you have come around to Magi's point of view from his infamous "Gendo's Smile" thread over on Monkey's forum. His whole point was that Gendo got his wish, and his punishment consisted only of the grisly method of his assumption.

The idea that Gendo got his wish has been around for about as long as the movie, AFAIK.

Old stock answer #113: Considering that GNR starts disintegrating before Shinji finally rejects instrumentality once and for all, I think it was something that was supposed to happen: all souls have been sucked into the Black Moon, so there's no longer any need for the cosmic vacuum cleaner. Therefore -> crumble.

I wouldn't throw out the potential value of exploring the context and seeing if there is some kind of straightforward "cause and effect" happening. (Just look at the Armisael business.)

I will, however, throw that into the cranium for some tumbling.

Yui didn't didn't work @ NERV while Shinji was there so thats why she isn't there.

Of course Yui works at Nerv! She's just in a giant refrigerator most of the time.

Yui's last line in 26'... seems to make me think that she is by herself

That would be the default conclusion -- yes. However, I don't think what she says is necessarily incompatible with the idea that she is, somehow, carrying one or more souls that are not her own.

Remember one of our old friends?




Armisael "Let me share my heart with you. Let me share this feeling with you."
"—— Doesn't it hurt? See, doesn't your heart hurt?"
Rei "Hurt? No, something else.
......loneliness?"
Rei "Yes, it's loneliness, isn't it?"
Armisael "Loneliness? I don't understand."
Rei "You hate being alone, don't you?"
Rei "We are many, but you hate being alone, don't you?"
Rei "That's what we call 'loneliness'."*


Bring forth the Tower of Terror!



Apparently, carrying around even fourteen disembodied souls and being painfully lonely are not mutually exclusive.

If you missed the relevant explorations of Armisael's character and what the hell is going on in this scene, I'm sure you can be escorted...

* :glances at the Japanese: Eewww... I need to revise FGC's current dialogue translation for this scene sometime. Those niggles don't actually matter here, though.

Gendo's failure to go "splat" is often sited as evidence that his fate was different than that of the other characters. Well, Fuyutsuki does go splat. Shouldn't this be seen as proof that he shared the other characters' fate?

"Going splat" just means that a manifestation of Rei (=Lilith's avatar) personally comes to you, an ATF blur occurs as she touches you, you dissolve into LCL, and she carries your liberated soul to Shekinah.

Once we get there, the traditional fan wisdom starts to leave me feeling kinda hungry.

If his fate mirrored Gendo's, shouldn't Eva Unit-01 have come for him as well, and presumably assumed him in a less violent fashion as he wasn't near as big a bastard as Gendo?

I didn't specifically mention anything about "mirroring", IIRC.

Off-topic: Gendo's "bastard-ness" appears to be a bit of a superficiality -- and a fan orthodoxy that isn't especially relevant to the interpretation of the "Retribution" scene.

Hmmm... Reichu, you're not by any chance going to turn OMF on us and say that in Fuyutsuki's case he was seeing the real Yui, are you?

Nawwww. Much as Kozo would have liked to be partially devoured by Yui-kun, he always has to settle for less, don't he?

Some things about his final moments are still unresolved in my mind, however.

Originally posted on: 15-Mar-2006, 03:18 GMT

[Seele08 [ANF]]

Shekinah

Do the texts you've translated call her that? Just curious if they do.

Originally posted on: 15-Mar-2006, 03:36 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

Do the texts you've translated call her that? Just curious if they do.

Naw, it's just fancy fanon for "Giant Naked Rei". A long while back I bumped into stuff on the Shekinah (the female emanation of God in Kabbalism) that felt... eerily reminiscent of the state Lilith takes upon in EoE. "It's like... Giant Naked Rei is the NGE version of Shekinah! Far out!" Not being in the mood to remember my research in precision, though, one quick bit: The Sephirah that Rei 3 soaks in (Malchuth) is associated with Shekinah -- and, incidentally (or is it?), links up with the Kabbalists' Lilith, as well.

</off>

Originally posted on: 15-Mar-2006, 03:54 GMT

[Shin-seiki [ANF]]

Hey Reichu, re post #205: How come you didn't make use of my insanely oversized Shito Tou gif?
http://homepage.mac.com/csf2860/Shito_Tou_lg.gif

Originally posted on: 15-Mar-2006, 13:25 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

Hey Reichu, re post #205: How come you didn't make use of my insanely oversized Shito Tou gif?

Urrr, ahhhh, ummmm... because it's insanely oversized?

I might attempt to chop that down into something a bit more "convenient", though. Helluva better than screenies, indeed, but not at 5MB!

Originally posted on: 15-Mar-2006, 13:38 GMT

[Mr. sickVisionz [ANF]]

Although it wasn't called Nerv at the time, Shinji was present for Yui's CE.
Kaworu was the 5th Child, he was at sync tests, he was a pilot.

As said, the human Yui Ikari never worked at NERV with Shinji. Kaworu worked at NERV with Shinji, but he was an angel (ie a Bad guy on the surface level). You can dig deep and find things that might kinda contradict it if you stretch it a lot, but I think the problem is that theres nothing really deep about that picture. Its just all the good guys Shinji worked with at NERV.

Originally posted on: 15-Mar-2006, 15:55 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

As said, the human Yui Ikari never worked at NERV with Shinji. Kaworu worked at NERV with Shinji, but he was an angel (ie a Bad guy on the surface level).

FYI, you're apparently working from a definition of "human" unsupported by the show.

Evas:

Ritsuko "And, from Adam, humans were made in her image. Those were the Evas.”
Shinji “People? They're humans?”
Ritsuko “Yes, they're human.

Kaworu:

TEXT:
Why did you kill him?

Shinji:
Because Kaworu was...
He was an Angel!

TEXT:
Even though he was also human?

Shinji:
No! An Angel! He was our enemy!

TEXT:
Even though he was human, like you?

Shinji:
No! No! You're wrong!

Rei:
Even though he was a person, just like me?

The Big Bang:

Misato:
Shinji-kun. We humans were born from the one called Lilith -- a source of life, just like Adam. We are the 18th Angel.
The other Angels were a different possibility: a race of humans that cast aside human form.
But, sadly, we had no choice but to reject one another.
Even though they were our fellow human beings...*

* Now that I finally looked closely at the Japanese text for this bit, my Reichu Vision is seeing something sort of like this.

You can dig deep and find things that might kinda contradict it if you stretch it a lot, but I think the problem is that theres nothing really deep about that picture. Its just all the good guys Shinji worked with at NERV.

You would need to produce some rather substantial evidence in order to convince me that Fuyutsuki is somehow a "bad guy".

And, while I can't say I find all of his behavior agreeable, allegations of "villainy" on Gendo's part appear to have been somewhat exaggerated.

Originally posted on: 15-Mar-2006, 19:03 GMT

[Soluzar [ANF]]

You would need to produce some rather substantial evidence in order to convince me that Fuyutsuki is somehow a "bad guy".

And, while I can't say I find all of his behavior agreeable, allegations of "villainy" on Gendo's part appear to have been somewhat exaggerated.

Please note that I believe the definition of "good/bad guy" that would be relevant to the photograph is based upon how Shinji would feel about that person. I'm not fully convinced either way, but does that not alter matters?

Originally posted on: 15-Mar-2006, 19:08 GMT

[LuigiHann [ANF]]

I'm not sure that the fact that we, the audience, see that deep down, Gendo is a good guy, changes the fact that he's a total jerk to pretty much every other character in the show. He was a jerk before he met Yui, and after Yui's "death" he's been an even bigger jerk. To the extent that the show is told from Shinji's perspective, and Gendo is pretty much the primary cause of all of Shinji's problems, Gendo is essentially the antagonist. Of course, the show isn't pure black and white, but I can say with some confidence that "Gendo is not a very good guy," even if his intentions weren't malevolent, they weren't exactly noble. Unless he had a really good reason for abandoning his son, and treating him like crap almost every time he sees him afterward, I think Shinji's resentment is fairly justified, even if he does seem to get over it in the very end.
On the other hand, that's neither here nor there.
Has anyone pointed out that Hikari and Aida never worked for Nerv?

Originally posted on: 15-Mar-2006, 23:36 GMT

[Soluzar [ANF]]

Has anyone pointed out that Hikari and Aida never worked for Nerv?

*DUN DUN DAHHHHHH*

... or did they?

Originally posted on: 15-Mar-2006, 23:56 GMT

[Seele08 [ANF]]

Aida shot Kaji! It all makes sense now! Well as much sense as Teddy/Vlad, but it makes sense!

Originally posted on: 15-Mar-2006, 23:59 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

He was a jerk before he met Yui, and after Yui's "death" he's been an even bigger jerk.

When we first meet Gendo (chronologically), he seems to have already been acquainted with Yui.
(Kozo on phone)

FUYUTSUKI:
Gendo Rokubungi? I've heard of him.

FUYUTSUKI (OFF):
No, I've never met him, but there's always some rumor going around
about him.

FUYUTSUKI (OFF):
What? He asked to be released into my custody?

FUYUTSUKI (OFF):
No, I'll come.
When should I come over there?

(Kozo and Gendo at the Kyoto P.D.)

GENDO:
I heard about you from a certain person, so I wanted to meet you.

FUYUTSUKI:
You're a rather coarse man to get into a drunken brawl.

GENDO:
There was no time to talk. They just picked a fight with me.

GENDO (OFF):
I'm not very good at being liked, but I am used to being treated coldly.

FUYUTSUKI:
Well, it's none of my business anyway.

GENDO:
Professor Fuyutsuki, you seem to be exactly the person I expected you to be.

FUYUTSUKI (N):
Yes, my first impression of him was of distaste.

(Kozo and Yui hiking)

FUYUTSUKI (N):
And back then, seasons and autumn still existed in this country.

FUYUTSUKI:
Are you serious?

YUI:
Yes, I am seeing Rokubungi-san.

FUYUTSUKI (N):
When I heard that, I wasn't able to hide my surprise.

FUYUTSUKI:
I never would have thought you would share your time with him.

YUI:
Oh, but Fuyutsuki-sensei, he's quite a sweet person.
It's just that no one knows it.

FUYUTSUKI:
Maybe it's more blissful not to know.

YUI:
Did I inconvenience you by introducing you to him?

FUYUTSUKI:
No, I'll admit that he's an interesting man, though I can't get to like him.
Too bad he ends up shoving his foot down his throat later.

To the extent that the show is told from Shinji's perspective, and Gendo is pretty much the primary cause of all of Shinji's problems, Gendo is essentially the antagonist. Of course, the show isn't pure black and white, but I can say with some confidence that "Gendo is not a very good guy," even if his intentions weren't malevolent, they weren't exactly noble.

The Shinji stuff aside -- which is a result of Gendo's own unresolved, heavy-duty personal problems -- my own impression is that the full scope of what's actually going on inside that head of his has been a topic traditionally involving a lot of surface-level assumption and very little in-depth exhumation.

Which is rather unfortunate, in my opinion, but not something that can't be eventually attended to.

Originally posted on: 16-Mar-2006, 00:30 GMT

[Batous Eye [ANF]]

True, but Maya and Fuyutsuki were, by process of elimination, the two true good guys in Eva. So what does Anno do? Make Maya a lesbian and Fuyutsuki have the hots for Yui. Of course he may have anyway, but...

I do not see where you get this "Maya is a lesbian" conclusion from. Maya was embraced by a Ritsuko before she was dissolved into the LCL sea. True, yes, but this was not sexual at all. She says "Senpai!" over and over. It means she had great respect of Ritsuko as a mentor. It would be like the Karate Kid seeing Mr. Miyagi before being dissolved and embracing him. That certainly should not be considered sexual.

Originally posted on: 21-Mar-2006, 15:33 GMT

[Shin-seiki [ANF]]

I do not see where you get this "Maya is a lesbian" conclusion from. Maya was embraced by a Ritsuko before she was dissolved into the LCL sea. True, yes, but this was not sexual at all. She says "Senpai!" over and over. It means she had great respect of Ritsuko as a mentor. It would be like the Karate Kid seeing Mr. Miyagi before being dissolved and embracing him. That certainly should not be considered sexual.

Sorry, but that scene was entirely sexual. Maya goes out in what is essentially an explosive orgasm...

Originally posted on: 21-Mar-2006, 15:36 GMT

[Mr. Tines [ANF]]

She says "Senpai!" over and over.

The script gives her lines as "Senpai! ♥", over and over. The "♥" is a dead giveaway, if you hadn't already figured it out from how the scene was delivered.

Edit: Scott beat me to reply while I was failing to find a link to scans of the actual storyboard - RahOtaku seems to have fallen off the 'net the one time he might have come in handy.

Originally posted on: 21-Mar-2006, 15:52 GMT

[Batous Eye [ANF]]

[snip]...

Also, from the previous assumption, Misato also had a transition guide and was turned into LCL (can't verify this without my reference copy, but I'm pretty sure there is a frame or 2 of her being tangified), AND she was alive right before she was blown in half. So it's safe to also assume that Misato was part of instrumentality not even taking account that she had several

...[snip]

A "transition guide" Rei does appear next to Misato before a grenade explodes under the floor. This is very clear on my DVD. I'm Sorry that I could not make a screen shot for everyone!

Originally posted on: 21-Mar-2006, 15:58 GMT

[Shin-seiki [ANF]]

[snip]...

...[snip]

A "transition guide" Rei does appear next to Misato before a grenade explodes under the floor. This is very clear on my DVD. I'm Sorry that I could not make a screen shot for everyone!

The transition guide that comes for Misato's soul appears befor her dismembered body in the "Komm Susser Tod" sequence in #26'. The Rei avatar that appears by Misato as she gets blown to bits in #25' seems to correlate with her participation in the so-called "Pre-3I Instumentality Sequence", i.e. the
'psychlogical stuff' that happens from the time Shinji dissolves in the entry plug (again!) in #26' to when Lilith spreads her wings and everyone goes sploosh. The Rei that appears to Misato, Ritsuko, (and, by implication, Asuka) as they die seems to be acting as a sort of 'medium' to connect their minds with that of Shinji in the P3I sequence.

Originally posted on: 21-Mar-2006, 16:29 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

The Rei avatar that appears by Misato as she gets blown to bits in #25' seems to correlate with her participation in the so-called "Pre-3I Instumentality Sequence", i.e. the
'psychological stuff' that happens from the time Shinji dissolves in the entry plug to when Lilith spreads her wings and everyone goes sploosh.

The Big Question is, why the hell does this sequence happen and what does it have to do with anything?

Originally posted on: 21-Mar-2006, 16:33 GMT

[Shin-seiki [ANF]]

The Big Question is, why the hell does this sequence happen and what does it have to do with anything?

Yui (voice):
This Rei is your heart... Your very hopes and dreams...

Rei (voice):
What do you wish for?
I've always wondered if Yui anticipated that things would go as badly here as they did. (edit: It is obvious that SEELE was counting on just the sort of outcome we got...) #25 makes abundantly clear that "So, everybody should just die" was purely Shinji's choice and responsibility. Was Yui stuck with trying to salvage the situation as best she could, or was the version of 3I that actually occured all part of her plan?

Originally posted on: 21-Mar-2006, 16:44 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

Yui (voice):
This Rei is your heart... Your very hopes and dreams...

Rei (voice):
What do you wish for?

Hmm... Rei represents one's hope and dreams... She asks you what you wish for... You see what you wish for... SPLASH! I smell prognostication!

Though maybe everyone already knew that and I'm really slow.

Wait... what does that have to do with my original question?

I've always wondered if Yui anticipated that things would go as badly here as they did. #25 makes abundantly clear that "So, everybody should just die" was purely Shinji's choice and responsibility. Was Yui stuck with trying to salvage the situation as best she could, or was the version of 3I that actually occured all part of her plan?

Very mysterious stuff. Gotta wonder about things like #19/#20, too, with Ritsuko going on about, "It was probably Eva's will!" :slap!:

Well, Yui is a very trixty lady, and there's probably some kind of strange logic behind all of this that will eventually come forward. ...eventually.

(edit: It is obvious that SEELE was counting on just the sort of outcome we got...)

What, you mean their Hive Mind being dissolved and the Black Moon 'sploding? Oh, wait...

Seele's little assembly only gets two more lines after GNR shows up, so I wonder -- what's up with all of that? It doesn't seem extremely logical that they could "count" on things like Yui summoning the original Spear back, and then Lilith getting her soul back, imbibing Adam (maybe other flotsam and jetsam...), and turning into this ginormous, almost-Rei-looking thing, and then all three Seeds conspiring between one another, and life being destroyed, and life being given opportunity to return, and all that...

Uhhh... What the hell's going on in this movie, again?

Originally posted on: 24-Mar-2006, 05:59 GMT