The Problem of Second Impact, or, Sloppy Writing is Sloooopy

[Ornette [ANF]]

Veeeerrry interesting /rubs chin

I think some of the details could be any number of things that fit the general gist of what you're saying, but I can't think of anything off the top of my head that directly goes against anything here.

Originally posted on: 02.04.2007, 02:40 AM

[Katayoku no Tenshi [ANF]]

That is interesting Anonymous EvaFan, I don?t see anything wrong with it.

Misato:
They plan to initiate Third Impact - not with Angels, but by using the Eva series. 15 years ago, Second Impact was caused by humans on purpose. (Flashed shot: Second Impact) But that was in order to minimize the damage by returning Adam (flashed image: Giant of Light) to an embryonic state (flashed image: Embryo in attache case) before the other Angels awoke. (flashed image: graves)
Shinji, we humans were born from a being called Lilith, who is the source of life just like Adam.

The way Misato says it, it seems like the two are complimentary goals.

1 Reduce Adam to an embryonic state to minimise the damage of 2I.
2 Reduce Adam before the Angels could wake up.

It?s also necessary to consider (how ever unpleasant) that this monologue is about the nature of humans primarily so it might be that it was necessary to reference the Angels as much as possible. Trying to say too many things at once causes Sloppy Expression (the bastard child of Sloppy Writing.)

I say this because both the CI and Ep #21? seem to say that 2I was an attempt to revert Adam to minimise the damage caused by her

OLD MAN J:
I don't care if it only makes a small difference!
Keep the damage to an absolute minimum!
...
MAN N:
Get it to use up as much of its anti-AT Field energy as possible!

it became that only an absolute catastrophe
-- the resetting of all life due to the disappearance of A.T. Fields, and the
construction of an ecosystem with an Adam base -- was prevented.

and Misato says something different. It?s hard to explain without resorting to ?Misato got it wrong.?

Katayoku%?7;Tenshi do you live in Europe then? Is this thread for everyone in the entire world?

1 Yes. England in fact. 2 Why wouldn't it be? Not that I'm promoting off topic or anthing.

Originally posted on: 02.04.2007, 03:53 AM

[AnonymousEvafan [ANF]]

For a bit of refinement. I'm thinking they needed Adam's S? organ to power whatever they were gonna do to retrovert her, and possibly planed on blowing the White Moon sky high in a baby version of 2I. Something around the size of the blast that freed the Black Moon. This would, of corse, melt a good bit of ice raising water levels world wide several feet, but nowhere near what really happened. They'd have written it of as sacrifices must be made for the good of us all blah, blah, blah.

The research team had absolutely no clue what SEELE was really planning. They were unwitting pawns, which really sucks for them.


EDIT: If you guys have any ideas to add/tweak please do so.

Originally posted on: 02.04.2007, 07:20 AM

[faetaleti [ANF]]

ZOMG I really think I've got it so here goes.

Well I think that was pretty brillant on your part AEF, since to me it made a lot of sense. So YAY !!

OLD MAN J:
I don't care if it only makes a small difference!
Keep the damage to an absolute minimum!
...
MAN N:
Get it to use up as much of its anti-AT Field energy as possible!

Why would they want her anti-field to get more powerful? So they could see how the S2 engine worked and whatnot. Or wait, so they could put her into an embryotic stage?

But so putting her in the embryotic stage, that wasn't their first goal while experimenting? Their goal was just to examine the S2 organ so they could build the eva series. But then when she went balistic they tried the lance, didn't work, so they resorted to putting her into the embryotic stage? Is that right?

Does anyone get the feeling that not even Anno knew what the hell he was talking about sometimes?

1 Yes. England in fact. 2 Why wouldn't it be? Not that I'm promoting off topic or anthing.

I didn't think this board converted everything we said into any language that other user spoke. Ah, American egotism, god I hate America. Well sorry for that !!! Back on topic now !!

Originally posted on: 02.04.2007, 11:51 AM

[Ornette [ANF]]

The research team had absolutely no clue what SEELE was really planning. They were unwitting pawns, which really sucks for them.

Yep, I've always had a feeling that the Katsuragi expedition were being played. But the bits that never fit together right was why wouldn't Seele want Dr. Katsuragi to develop an S^2 and them calling it a disaster.

Why would they want her anti-field to get more powerful? So they could see how the S2 engine worked and whatnot.

They wanted Adam to use up as much of her AATF, to minimize the overall damage I suppose.

Originally posted on: 02.04.2007, 12:04 PM

[AnonymousEvafan [ANF]]

why wouldn't Seele want Dr. Katsuragi to develop an S^2

Huh? That's why he was there in the first place. They had BIG plans for the S? organ, installing them in the Harpies and all. His experiment just when very wrong, very fast.

Why would they want her anti-field to get more powerful?

AATF=Lilim go sploosh. Not quite the desired plan for the day by any stretch of the imagination.

But so putting her in the embryotic stage, that wasn't their first goal while experimenting?

That wasn't the research teams mission. SEELE on the other hand had plans to do so.

Their goal was just to examine the S2 organ so they could build the eva series

They had no clue SEELE was planning on building the Evas. Their only mission was to study the S? organ, and hopefully reproduce an artificial one for SEELE. SEELE was using this to test various things later used on the Eva Series.

But then when she went balistic they tried the lance, didn't work, so they resorted to putting her into the embryotic stage? Is that right?

Admittedly this part needs some major work! Gendo and Keel where in Antartica for awhile so it's possible they put plans in place to make sure Adam didn't wake the kids so-to-speak.

This is still very much a work in progress. As such the ideas within are subject to revision.

Originally posted on: 02.04.2007, 12:34 PM

[Mr. Tines [ANF]]

They had BIG plans for the S? organ, installing them in the Harpies and all. His experiment just when very wrong, very fast.

More, I think, seeing the importance of the S? organ to the extent of designing it out of their "domesticated" Adam-kin, the Evangelions.

Originally posted on: 02.04.2007, 12:52 PM

[Katayoku no Tenshi [ANF]]

MAN N:
Get it to use up as much of its anti-AT Field energy as possible!

Why would they want her anti-field to get more powerful? So they could see how the S2 engine worked and whatnot. Or wait, so they could put her into an embryotic stage?

Use up as in exhaust or waste. Either they had some way of absorbing the ATF or they wanted her to use it on them, so that it wouldn't be used on the rest of the world? I dunno.

I didn't think this board converted everything we said into any language that other user spoke. Ah, American egotism, god I hate America. Well sorry for that !!! Back on topic now !!

... What language are you typing in? I'm using English (just about )

Originally posted on: 02.04.2007, 01:07 PM

[AnonymousEvafan [ANF]]

More, I think, seeing the importance of the S? organ to the extent of designing it out of their "domesticated" Adam-kin, the Evangelions.

That really doesn't make any sense. They took Shamshel's and stuck it in EVA-04 knowing full well how potentially dangerous it was. If they didn't want the Evas to have them why go through all that trouble?

Misato:
And the S2 engine that we finally restored?

RITSUKO:
Gone. Our dream's been shattered.

10. Details of the Human Instrumentality Project

D. In-Depth Information

While the Angels were being engaged in battle, people were also making and
advancing the plan for the path that leads to divinity.

The first step is the completion of Eva -- the body of a god and throne of a soul -- via the installation of an S2 Engine. The interfusion of souls follows.

The question remains, why would you bioengineer them out of the Evas if they're needed for HIP? Personally I am of the belief that the Evas simply can not naturally possess an S? organ since they wern't directly born from Adam and didn't get souls from her. Funny to note they stick the organs in before the souls.

Originally posted on: 02.04.2007, 01:22 PM

[Ornette [ANF]]

Huh? That's why he was there in the first place. They had BIG plans for the S? organ, installing them in the Harpies and all. His experiment just when very wrong, very fast.

I'm talking about the "Seele setting them up the bomb" angle, in which case it wouldn't make sense because they want an S^2 as much as Katsuragi.

Originally posted on: 02.04.2007, 01:24 PM

[AnonymousEvafan [ANF]]

ZOMG something just hit me, and it's sick.

SEELE thought they had all they needed from Katsuragi and were trying to get rid of the research team. They sabotaged his experiment!

TEXT:
Director's Office

FUYUTSUKI (OFF):
Why do you hide the existence of the giant of light?!
You guys knew about the Second Impact, didn't you?
That it would happen on that day?

FUYUTSUKI:
You said you were lucky enough to get out the day before.
Was it also luck that you took all your research with you?!

IKARI:
I am surprised that this material escaped destruction.

Adam go boom was part of the plan, though the size of the blast wasn't what they anticipated. They didn't want Adam waking up. Just look at all the questions Adam left in her wake. The plan was blow up the White Moon, Adam, the kids, and anyone that knew about Adam and wasn't in SEELE. After the blast they'd retrieve the Adam egg they arranged to be left behind.

OLD MAN C:
What about the Spear of Longinus?

MAN A:
It's still where it was brought ashore after arriving from the Dead Sea last week.

OLD MAN B:
Isn't some processing necessary before it's taken underground? Will it be okay?

17. Dead Sea Scrolls

D. In-Depth Information

The Secret Dead Sea Scrolls are a scripture written by the First Ancestral Race, a manual regarding the Seed of Life (Progenitor Entity) and the usage of the Spear of Longinus security device, possibly while applying a scheme at the time of use to a religious group's own doctrines. They are written prophecy, in so far as they remain active even in the current day according to a design of the past.

OLD MAN G:
The Spear! Pull the Spear back!

MAN H (SPEAKERS):
It's no good! We can't maintain the magnetic field!

MAN I:
It's sinking in!

I think you were right Reichu! The Spear is want caused Adam to retrovert to an egg, only, the research team didn't have a clue because SEELE wanted them gone! SEELE set it up so Adam's S? organ would go haywire and link to Adam's self-destruct system. Too bad they miscalculated and Adam left them 15 presents they didn't want fufufu.

I'll revise this later, it's mostly raw thought at the moment.

Originally posted on: 02.05.2007, 10:11 AM

[Katayoku no Tenshi [ANF]]

Mein Gott im Himmel

You might just have it there

Originally posted on: 02.05.2007, 10:34 AM

[AnonymousEvafan [ANF]]

It's time to refine this beast! But first, I was hoping for some FEEDBACK on this particular train of thought, but nooooo, you guys SUCK! Especially you Reichu! Okay now that that's out of my system let's get started shall we?

Evas and S? organs:
Now, it seems to be a popular beleif that they were inentionally bioengineered out of the Evas. This doesn't make ANY sense for multiple reasons. Firstly, from a tactical standpoint this is an idiotic idea. Why are you going to limit yourself to a system of power cables with limited range and 5 minute backup batteries? Against God-humans with limitless power no less! Why give yourself such a HUGE tactical disadvantage? And that's just from a tactical viewpoint. They seemed to be awfully eager to get Shamshiel's S? organ! For those that don't know, the S? organ is in the core.

Man 2:
The analysis from the 2nd Branch in Germany is scheduled to arrive within 5 minutes. Director in the S? block, wait for further instruction.

Woman:
Recovering the existing core is the highest priority.

(Ritsuko:
I see. Almost everything except the core remains intact. Truly an ideal sample.)

(Misato:
Well, you at least found its power source, right?)

Man 2:
The Power Analysis Unit from Germany's 2nd Branch is currently
arriving.

(Ritsuko:
Something like that. But we haven't been able to figure out any of its operating principles.)

Fuyutsuki:
This is the core? How is the rest of it?

Man:
It is severely deteriorated. We can't expect to use it as a reference.

Ikari:
Not a problem. Dispose of everything else.

IBUKI:
Evangelion Unit 04 and all related research facilities within an 89km radius
have completely vanished.

RITSUKO:
Along with several thousand people.

AOBA:
Looking at the time schedule, we believe it to be an accident
during the experimental installation of the S2 engine
that was restored in Germany.

Another thing: When EVA-01 is "taking the S2 Engine into herself", she's
sticking her face into Zeruel's core.





Let's also take Ritsuko's (the head of Project E) words into account.

Misato:
And the S2 engine that we finally restored?

RITSUKO:
Gone. Our dream's been shattered.

Further more the CI states that the S? organ is esential to SEELE's plans.

10. Details of the Human Instrumentality Project

C. Confidential Information

The Human Instrumentality Project is a plan aimed at divinity. The Evas are absolutely essential to Seele, for they are the sole key that can open the Path to Divinity. This is because they were copied from Adam, she who is nearest to a god.

As yet, the Evas are surely insufficient in number. However, as long as that part was somehow accomplished, people thought that they could procure gods, or, at least, entities very nearly so.

That is also Seele's gospel: opening the Path to Divinity by complementing the part that people are missing. If people gathered up the gods, what would happen? They thought that they could become a god themselves.

D. In-Depth Information

While the Angels were being engaged in battle, people were also making and advancing the plan for the path that leads to divinity.

The first step is the completion of Eva -- the body of a god and throne of a soul -- via the installation of an S2 Engine. The interfusion of souls follows. Afterwards, our final natural enemy, the Spear of Longinus security device, is annihilated. Thus, that which is nearly divine, or perhaps a god in and of itself, is brought to completion, and, with the Spear gone, cannot be destroyed by anyone.

Seele's intention for this man-made god is to guide the elite (themselves) to a nearly divine place.

I can't believe I missed the line "completion of Eva via the the installation of an S2 Engine/Organ". The Evas were incomplete!

So if the Evas were incomplete, why kill Dr. Katsuragi you ask? Simple, SEELE didn't know that at the time. It's easy to figure that everyone thought the organ was purely a biological trait. So if you think it's biological then what do you need the research team for if you have Adam? If they're usless you sure don't want them going around blabing about that giant humanoid thing with limitless power. You've got to shut them up somehow to keep your big plans secret. So what do you do? Well, you rig her to blow, take all the research, get out of dodge, and sit back and wait. Only after the fact, after 3 Evas fail to produce said organ, does Keel make a horrible discovery.

Keel: Ikari, do you care to explain this to me?
Yui: I don't know what you're talking about.
Keel: Would you kindly explain to me why not only the Prototype, but the Test Type and First Production Model are missing their S? organs?
Yui: Don't blame us, we only grew them from the DNA samples given to us. The problem must lie with the DNA source.
Keel: The DNA samples came directly from Adam! There shouldn't be any problems!
Yui: Maybe the organs aren't purely biological like we thought. Perhaps there is metaphysical biology at play aswell.
Keel: WTF? You're joking right?
Yui: If I say I'm not what are you going to do?
Keel: Wonderful, this is all I need!
Yui: What, did you think the path to Godhood would be easy?
Keel: Watch yourself Ikari, you're quickly finding your way onto my bad side.

I know what some of you are gonna say, the Harpies had them. Ah, but wait, they were equiped with them. They didn't come with them.

Fuyutsuki:
Deployment of all nine units equipped with the S2 system!?
Isn't that a bit excessive?
Or... do they plan to initiate it here!!?

That said, they sure did get them working pretty damn fast didn't they? Katsuragi must have had the organ completely figured out.

??:
Eight Evangelions are already being prepared.

??:
Which leaves four more.

KEEL:
The annihilation of New Tokyo-3 will be good material
upon which to advance our plans. Hurry their completion.
That will be our promised day.

From the end of ep #23 to the point in EoE where the Harpies show up is less that 2 weeks if that long. It may have been less that a week. 9 of them were completed and operational in less than a month. That attests to a great understanding of how the S? organ worked.

Phew, I think I'm finally done. If you see anything I missed speak up.

Originally posted on: 02.07.2007, 08:39 AM

[Katayoku no Tenshi [ANF]]

I was hoping for some FEEDBACK on this particular train of thought, but nooooo, you guys SUCK!

What do you want form me? I got nothing! Reichu on the other hand...

Why are you going to limit yourself to a system of power cables with limited range and 5 minute backup batteries? Against God-humans with limitless power no less!

COMMITTEEMAN ?:
The Eva series aren't capable of generating S2 engines themselves.

COMMITTEEMAN ?:
We never imagined it would take one into itself this way.

COMMITTEEMAN ?:
This incident is at extreme odds with our script.

FUYUTSUKI:
So, it's Seele and not the Committee.

??:
We have no intention of creating a new god.

Seele ordained it so it was left out.

Of course that doesn't link with your selections.

Unless Seele wanted the S^2 installed at a later date to ... minimize the risk of them becoming Gods?

They seemed to be awfully eager to get Shamshiel's S? organ!

I was thinking about that today actually:

Man 2:
The analysis from the 2nd Branch in Germany is scheduled to arrive within 5 minutes. Director in the S? block, wait for further instruction.

Woman:
Recovering the existing core is the highest priority.

Ritsuko:
I see. Almost everything except the core remains intact. Truly an ideal sample.

if the core was the only damaged part why is it such a great sample. Furthermore:

FUYUTSUKI:
This is the core? How's the rest of it?

MAN (OFF):
It's pretty deteriorated. We can't expect to use it as a reference.

IKARI (OFF):
That's not a problem. Dispose of the remnants.

They throw the rest, the intact part, away! So it's dissolving OK then.

The problem?

Step 1 Take a broken and flawed (imperfect) red blob that creates infinite energy
Step 2 Get a giant human
Step 3 ???
Step 4 Sea of Dirac

From the end of ep #23 to the point in EoE where the Harpies show up is less that 2 weeks if that long. It may have been less that a week. 9 of them were completed and operational in less than a month. That attests to a great understanding of how the S? organ worked.

HYUGA:
Intelligence Division 2 reports that they have the Second Child
safely in their custody.

Misato:
I see.
It isn't like Division 2 to take seven days to find her
on top of losing her in the first place.

It's been at least a week since 23 then two days in 24, then two days later the Harpies show up. I'd say two weeks here. Still quick work, although I'm not sure how the gap between making any of them is relevant once one is ready it's just a case of 'Copy' + 'Paste' [/ 's Advocate]

D'you know I have nothing constructive? Told you.

Only after the fact, after 3 Evas fail to produce said organ, does Keel make a horrible discovery.

Yep know he's really regretting that semi-apocalypse

Originally posted on: 02.07.2007, 11:23 AM

[AnonymousEvafan [ANF]]

My brain happens to be stuck on 2I so I obvoiusly missed a few things.

Seele ordained it so it was left out.

Of course that doesn't link with your selections.

Unless Seele wanted the S^2 installed at a later date to ... minimize the risk of them becoming Gods?

The Evas are characterized as the body of a god. As to why the Evas can't generate the organs, that's left vague. The Evas are completed by installing the organs. They always planned on the Harpies having them, so why go through the trouble of engineering them out of the Evas in the first place? That very idea will never make sense to me, if merly from the tactical standpoint alone. The incident they speak of would be Yui's snack. They obviously didn't want Yui to get one like that... But really what does that prove?

It's been at least a week since 23 then two days in 24, then two days later the Harpies show up. I'd say two weeks here.

Oops! Actually I was right the first time, just under 2 weeks.

I'm not sure how the gap between making any of them is relevant once one is ready it's just a case of 'Copy' + 'Paste'

Uh huh, tell that to EVA-04. Anyways it shows they got what they wanted from the poor doctor.

Originally posted on: 02.07.2007, 11:44 AM

[Ornette [ANF]]

Seele ordained it so it was left out.

Of course that doesn?t link with your selections.

Unless Seele wanted the S^2 installed at a later date to ? minimize the risk of them becoming Gods?

It looks like (from the excerpts) that the people who are talking are part of Nerv in Tokyo-3.and the Germany branch just wanted their people to take a look at the sample. I've never bought into the "S^2 engineered out" idea, it always seemed more like "making an Eva is not as easy as taking some cells and growing one", some things needed to happen, and when all was said and done, the S^2 simply didn't come with the package.

I was thinking about that today actually:
if the core was the only damaged part why is it such a great sample.

Perhaps there was something inside the core that was undamaged, like the S^2?

@AEF
That HIP section D excerpt is one of the ones I find hard to understand, as it doesn't seem to fit nicely with not just the show, but the rest of the CI itself; not necessarily because this entry is wrong, just that there is seemingly a contradiction.

As for your idea as a whole, if I understand it correctly, the gist of it is: Seele purposely did something to the CE so that it would get rid of the expedition there, but they didn't expect it to be that catastrophic. The team valiantly, but futilely, try to stop it, but only manage to minimize it from being at a global scale.

That works fine with me, it makes sense and doesn't seem to go against anything in both the show and extratextual sources. The details themselves I usually consider "level 2 fanwankage" as they usually solidify when someone has an issue with said idea and you need to make a real solid connection with the facts in the show. That's why I said in my previous post that the little details could go either way and still work. The angle that Seele decided "OK, we have enough info, we don't need to know the results of the CE." then later "whoops, maybe not" again fits with why Gendo left with all the info the day before the CE and why Seele would sabatoge the CE.

Originally posted on: 02.07.2007, 11:56 AM

[AnonymousEvafan [ANF]]

As for your idea as a whole, if I understand it correctly, the gist of it is: Seele purposely did something to the CE so that it would get rid of the expedition there, but they didn't expect it to be that catastrophic. The team valiantly, but futilely, try to stop it, but only manage to minimize it from being at a global scale.

That would be the general idea. Only, SEELE rigged the Spear so it wouldn't reseal Adam. The plan was not only to get rid of the research team but the White Moon and other Angels aswell thus covering their tracks. Somewhere along the line something went very, very wrong. I've got ideas on how this ties into 24' but that's for another time. Adam going boom when she did saved SEELE from a major screw-up.

That works fine with me, it makes sense and doesn't seem to go against anything in both the show and extratextual sources.

Thanks! My brain went into overdrive on this on and led me to a rather twisted place. Good to know it made sense to someone other than me.

Originally posted on: 02.07.2007, 08:37 PM

[Reichu [ANF]]

So, how does the Contact Experiment and Adam's S2 artificially going batshit crazy fit into all this?

Originally posted on: 02.11.2007, 02:15 AM

[AnonymousEvafan [ANF]]

WTF? You want me to figure out everything? Um, how about the point to the CE was to activate the organ. Don't ask me about the genes though.

Female Announcer (right):
State of emergency, state of emergency. All personnel, put on your protective gear. All workers in Level 2 and below, immediately evacuate to the upper area of Central Dogma.

MAN F:
Stop the surface luminescence!
It's surpassing calculated predictions!

WOMAN B:
The genes that dived into Adam have already undergone physical fusion!

WOMAN C (RADIO):
All A.T. Fields are being released.

Surface luminescence or glowing, so they were doing something with her organ during the CE. It even went past their predictions. As to what the donor's purpose was, I DON'T KNOW! If you've got any ideas lets hear them. Maybe they'd get me jump-started again. BTW the organ going nutty was SABOTAGE on SEELE's part.

Originally posted on: 02.11.2007, 04:45 AM

[Reichu [ANF]]

WTF? You want me to figure out everything?

That information has been classified by the United States government due to its threat to national security.

Um, how about the point to the CE was to activate the organ. Don't ask me about the genes though.

If you make Adam preggers with some convoluted 'Contact Experiment', everything else will logically follow. At least, so it seems to be implied here and there.*

CE --> Everything else.
Gene Diving = Something they expected, but not as quickly as what happened.
Surface Luminescence = Something they expected, but not as much as they got.
Spear = Needed to be "prepared" (or whatever) for day of CE. And, for mysterious reasons, shipped to the Dead Sea and back.
AATF & Doors and Guf = Things they somehow already knew about.

As to what the donor's purpose was, I DON'T KNOW! If you've got any ideas lets hear them.

I-don't-think-you'd-like-them.

They ultimately derive from my various hallucinations about Dr. K., such as his left hand being important in that weird cross-reference-with-Gendo-in-#26' sort of way.

Maybe they'd get me jump-started again. BTW the organ going nutty was SABOTAGE on SEELE's part.

= Speculation.

Also, riddle me this: If one sets up Adam to explode in a huge way, how does it also logically follow that mysteriously programming the Spear and counting on the Katsuragi Team to use it "properly" before their unfortunate demise will leave behind a conveniently salvageable egg/embryo/whatever and virtually nothing else?

Oh yeah, and what are they talking about with that "Pull it back!" / "zomg its sinking in!" stuff?

* And by "here and there", I mean that... You know, Lilim "contact" Adam, lots of bad stuff happen. Later on, if Adam kiddle "contact" Adam/Lilith/whatever, even more bad stuff happen. Lesson: Apparently, there are certain ways you just shouldn't touch those Seeds.

Plus, the CE-->2I bit is mentioned in /Eva tomo no kai/, at the very least.

Originally posted on: 02.11.2007, 05:47 AM