Reichu explains it all...

[Reichu [ANF]]

It's becuase you ask the big questions that nobody has answers too!

Perhaps so, perhaps so. But I still like to think that if us NGE otaku put our grey matter together, no question is too insurmountable! Rather optimistic of me, I know.

I look forward to any thoughts you have to offer, at any rate.

Originally posted on: 20-Jan-2004, 22:52 GMT

[MDWigs [ANF]]

My plane departs in a little under six hours. If I didn't have some much packing still to do I would give it a shot now (I've done so much procrastination already )

Originally posted on: 21-Jan-2004, 02:34 GMT

[BLACKANGEL32076 [ANF]]

>Reichu

Give yourself a LITTLE credit girl. You helped me a lot on this ine too. I always wondered if there was more to that, "I want my son to bare witness to the begining of the new world, (or soemthing like that)." part when Yui-san's "accident" happened. It was her way of saying goodbye to Shinji before 3I.

Originally posted on: 21-Jan-2004, 03:04 GMT

[Shin-seiki [ANF]]

It's becuase you ask the big questions that nobody has answers too!

Precisely! (Reichu, you remember when I told you "Hmm... you know, you ask some really hard questions; they kinda make my head hurt!" Well you're still asking 'em, and my head still hurts when I think about 'em!) [img]http://www.evageeks.org/ANF-Archive/images/../images/Kitty Spin.gif[/img]

Originally posted on: 21-Jan-2004, 15:02 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

Precisely!

Well, that's reassuring, at least. I was starting to suffer Shinji-esque delusions.

Shinji: "Look, nobody's replying to my mega-load of questions on this forum. Guess it must mean they all hate me."
Asuka: "Anta bakaa~?! They don't hate YOU; your questions just make their heads hurt."
Shinji: "Oh..."

(Reichu, you remember when I told you "Hmm... you know, you ask some really hard questions; they kinda make my head hurt!" Well you're still asking 'em, and my head still hurts when I think about 'em!) [img]http://www.evageeks.org/ANF-Archive/images/../images/Kitty Spin.gif[/img]

Actually... I don't. But, yeah, they make my head hurt, too. ::bashes head against nearest available wall::

Originally posted on: 21-Jan-2004, 15:12 GMT

[Shin-seiki [ANF]]

Actually... I don't. But, yeah, they make my head hurt, too. ::bashes head against nearest available wall::

Back when we first crossed paths over on Anime-Forums...

Originally posted on: 21-Jan-2004, 15:17 GMT

[Siendra [ANF]]

It's interesting to look at this scene in light of what we're discussing here:
(Ep25' Air)
SCENE: SEELE monoliths - Gendo and Fuyutsuki

SEELE 01 (Keel):
The promised time has come.
With the Lance of Longinus now lost, complementation using Lilith is impossible.
Our only hope is to proceed with EVA-01, Lilith's sole clone.

Gendo:
While different from SEELE's scenario...

Fuyutsuki:
Humans have existed to create Eva. (ambiguous)

Gendo:
Humans should evolve into a new world. That is the purpose of the Eva series.

SEELE 09:
We have no intention of giving up our human forms simply to enter the Ark called Eva.

SEELE 12:
It is merely a rite of passage... To bring about the rebirth in those who are imprisoned.

SEELE 05(?):
The fate of destruction is also the joy of rebirth.

SEELE 04(?):
A sacrament to unite God, humans, and all other life forms in death. [ <<Reichu, please note]

I was just going to bring that up...

Originally posted on: 21-Jan-2004, 15:22 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

I was just going to bring that up...

Well, if you have anything to add, please do so!

Originally posted on: 21-Jan-2004, 15:25 GMT

[Shin-seiki [ANF]]

It seems that this thread (like most threads on this forum) is apt to go off on two or three different tangents. I wanted to take a closer look at the original topic, which was the scene from Ep21'/D&R with Yui and Fuytsuki at the Lake Ashinoko Levee. Now that Reichu has opened my eyes to the real import of this conversation, I'd like to subject it to some in-depth analysis. (And with me, you all know by now that means lots of screenshots )



Here Anno sets the stage; despite the peaceful setting, this is about the impending doom that is looming over everyone in the wake of 2I. Yui and Fuyutsuki are among the tiny handfull of people who actually have any notion of what is really going on...


Here Yui and Fuyutsuki are subtlely dancing around the subject, feeling each other out. Yui makes the the first move, offering up the notion (which she, of course knows to be a lie) that SEELE's purpose is to prevent the 'final tragedy'.


Fuyutsuki gives her the answer she is looking for, letting her know that he is on her side in this...


Yui cuts to the chase: SEELE's plan is madness... The words 'break that seal onto the world' are reminiscent, of course, of the language of the Book of Revelations.

Originally posted on: 22-Jan-2004, 15:47 GMT

[Shin-seiki [ANF]]

'The materials' is, I suppose, a reference to the stuff that Fuyutsuki had with him when he confronted Gendo earlier in Ep21. Perhaps by "It's not something one can do alone" he means that he's taking an 'if you can't beat 'em, join em' approach to self-preservation. I remember thinking during that scene "Fuyutsuki must not want to live long, letting Gendo know that he plans on blowing the whistle on Gendo and SEELE over what really happened in 2I."


Anno takes time out to inject a little subtext of Fuyutsuki's obvious, but unstated attraction to Yui. As AWL and friends put it on the D&R Audio Commentary: "Haha! the old guy is looking down her shirt!" The shot of Shinji reaching for her breasts is, of course, a suggestion of where Fuyutsuki allows his mind to wander for a sec... Oh well, judging by the various looks at Rei's chest @,@ provided in the series, we can surmise that Yui has a very nice pair; who can blame him?!


The Bochan_bird take on this line seems to refer to Second Impact; whereas the new ADV translation on the Resurrection DVD refers to his confrontation with Gendo; for once, I think that ADV is on the right track in this case.

Originally posted on: 22-Jan-2004, 15:48 GMT

[Shin-seiki [ANF]]

As I mentioned above, Fuyutsuki was virtually signing his own death warrant when he confronted Gendo; Gendo must have considered him more usefull alive than dead, otherwise he wouldn't even be around for this conversation.
Yui's reference to survivors was what always tripped me up in interpreting this scene; I thought it was a reference to 2I, and I couldn't figure out what any of this had to do with, say, Misato... Anyway, Reichu has put me on track as to what that line really means, tho I would say that I don't think that Yui was in imminent danger, rather I think she knew that sooner or later, she would have to go against SEELE's scenario, and that if she did, they would simply eliminate her.

Originally posted on: 22-Jan-2004, 15:49 GMT

[Shin-seiki [ANF]]

The line "Still, that's no reason for you to become a test subject" is crucial, because it connects what they've been talking about to the otherwise incomprehensible choice that Yui makes. The line "Every thing happens as it must" is one of my favorites in the entire series; Yui is the one person who really knows what's going on, and, as Reichu points out, she does what she's gotta do to be able to influence the course of events.


Needless to say, I don't like ADV's lame-o translation of that line.


Fuyutsuki stares at Yui, as the full import of what she's hinting at starts to sink in...

Originally posted on: 22-Jan-2004, 15:50 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

Another great presentation, as always. (And glad I could be of help.) It definitely opened my eyes to things from that conversation that has previously gone over MY head (since you know where my focus commonly lies ). I must meditate upon this.

One place where I currently disagree is that Yui's situation was a little more immediately dire than she might have been letting on. As I've pointed out, her choice to conduct a Contact Experiment on an unfinished Eva (Shogouki's legs had not yet emerged defined from the stretched taffy "umbilical cord" to which she was connected to Lil, and such) only really makes sense if it is viewed in connection to Yui's haste. She didn't have time to wait for the Eva to finish growing; it had to happen then and there.

Also interesting is Yui's choice of Eva. There surely must have been fully mature Eva bodies lying around in GEHIRN's basement, yet she chose the one that was being grown from Lilith, not a GSF of Adam. (The choice to grow an Eva straight out of Lilith in the first place is still something that hopelessly boggles me.) Is this because having a body made directly from Lilith would give Yui's future self advantages in 'preventing the final disaster' that she wouldn't otherwise have?

Originally posted on: 22-Jan-2004, 17:31 GMT

[AnalyticalWrath [ANF]]

And, my favorite question of all, what would pull Lilith out of her body and into a false one? I suppose there is the possibility that Lilith did it on purpose, not knowing that she would be separated from her memories in the process -- but that might be a little off the deep end.

I always assumed that the mask has something to do with this, or at least blocks her way back.

Originally posted on: 23-Jan-2004, 15:03 GMT

[Shin-seiki [ANF]]

Another great presentation, as always. (And glad I could be of help.) It definitely opened my eyes to things from that conversation that has previously gone over MY head (since you know where my focus commonly lies ). I must meditate upon this.

One place where I currently disagree is that Yui's situation was a little more immediately dire than she might have been letting on. As I've pointed out, her choice to conduct a Contact Experiment on an unfinished Eva (Shogouki's legs had not yet emerged defined from the stretched taffy "umbilical cord" to which she was connected to Lil, and such) only really makes sense if it is viewed in connection to Yui's haste. She didn't have time to wait for the Eva to finish growing; it had to happen then and there.

Also interesting is Yui's choice of Eva. There surely must have been fully mature Eva bodies lying around in GEHIRN's basement, yet she chose the one that was being grown from Lilith, not a GSF of Adam. (The choice to grow an Eva straight out of Lilith in the first place is still something that hopelessly boggles me.) Is this because having a body made directly from Lilith would give Yui's future self advantages in 'preventing the final disaster' that she wouldn't otherwise have?

When I think about it, I have to admit that you're most likely right about the urgency of Yui's situation; it explains what happens next too neatly to be discounted. I didn't think that her tone sounded particularly dire, but the whole scene is deceptively calm, given the life-or-death, fate-of-the-world subject matter. Also, the way Fuyutsuki refers to her differences with SEELE, it seems like it was an open secret...
As for the advantages of EVA-01 over any other EVA for her purposes, I wonder whether another EVA would be able to sprout twelve wings and restore the world (which, more than anything else, indicates to me that Yui attains divine status by the end of the story) like she does in Ep26'. (Tho one wonders if Yui could really see that far ahead...)

Originally posted on: 23-Jan-2004, 15:12 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

I always assumed that the mask has something to do with this, or at least blocks her way back.

Could you explain your reasoning behind this? I don't see any connection, personally. The function of Lilith's mask (assuming it has any at all) still poses an enormous mystery to me, but implying that it has something to do with her transferance to Rei seems illogical. The salvage wasn't trying to put Lilith's soul anywhere -- the target was Yui, so Lilith ending up in a Yui-like body was by all indications an accident.

As for the advantages of EVA-01 over any other EVA for her purposes, I wonder whether another EVA would be able to sprout twelve wings and restore the world (which, more than anything else, indicates to me that Yui attains divine status by the end of the story) like she does in Ep26'. (Tho one wonders if Yui could really see that far ahead...)

Is it possible that the twelve wings refer to Shogouki's connection to Lilith? Though I do find it odd that, initially, she only sprouts four, the number that Adam displayed in Antarctica. Is there any significance to this discrepancy? (Also interesting is that twelve wings is, traditionally, a trademark of Sammael -- need I explain who that is? -- which makes one wonder what Lilith/Rei is doing with twelve...)

Also, much about the very end of 26' (the Heisoku no kakudai bit, anyway) continues to twist my brain into knots... Shin-seiki, how much of what is going on do you think can be attributed directly to Yui? Granted, she seems a bit more active then than earlier in the episode, where she was a passive focal point of the 3I "ritual".

BTW, I'll be posting a goody later on that relates vaguely to the topic at hand. (I WOULD post it now, if avians.net wasn't being stupid.)

Originally posted on: 23-Jan-2004, 15:20 GMT

[AnalyticalWrath [ANF]]

What I mean is more of the mask is what keeps Lilith's soul from returning to her body which draws the angels to her because they think she is Adam. It's a means by which to keep everyone from realizing where Adam is. I don't really believe it "pulled" her soul out but I do believe it keeps her out.

so Lilith ending up in a Yui-like body was by all indications an accident

or could it be a clever plan by Gendo to bend things to his own means?

Originally posted on: 23-Jan-2004, 15:28 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

What I mean is more of the mask is what keeps Lilith's soul from returning to her body which draws the angels to her because they think she is Adam. It's a means by which to keep everyone from realizing where Adam is. I don't really believe it "pulled" her soul out but I do believe it keeps her out.

I'm still not convinced of the supposed mask/angelic-attraction connection, either. As for your other suggestion, the mask somehow keeping her soul out -- that would require assuming her soul is trying to return to her body to begin with, which it's not. It's contained within Rei, and when one Rei dies, the soul doesn't go anywhere -- it stays inside the dead body until it is technologically transferred to a new one. This phenomenon of the soul remaining after death is not limited to Rei -- it is one of the "spiritual dynamics" of the NGE mythos.

or could it be a clever plan by Gendo to bend things to his own means?

Gendou's ultimate motive in NGE is to "be with Yui again", so doubt he would intentionally botch the operation to return Yui to Lilim form in such a way. Or perhaps I'm completely missing something and Rei's creation was somehow not "accidental".

Originally posted on: 23-Jan-2004, 15:35 GMT

[Shin-seiki [ANF]]

Or perhaps I'm completely missing something and Rei's creation was somehow not "accidental".

I, for one, have never been convinced that Lilith's soul ending up in Rei was an accident.
[Ep25]:
Gendou: Let's go. This is the day for which you were created, Rei...
Rei: Hai.

Originally posted on: 23-Jan-2004, 15:44 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

I, for one, have never been convinced that Lilith's soul ending up in Rei was an accident.
[Ep25]:
Gendou: Let's go. This is the day for which you were created, Rei...
Rei: Hai.

Hmm, yes, I suppose Gendou DID say that for a reason. Making sense of it all is something else altogether, though. If Rei was created on purpose, wouldn't it be at odds with Wigs' nice theory connecting the creation of Rei-001 to the failed attempt to salvage Yui? There are so many unanswered questions. The quote cited above reprompts many of the questions I spouted earlier in this thread (and in numerous other threads, as well -- never to any sort of resolution, if I recall). Oh, the mysteries, the mysteries.

Anyways, here's a little goody for whoever is interested, and it bares at least minimal pertinence to the subject. I've pieced together the Eva graveyard scene from #23' (from "Renewal" caps most graciously provided to me) -- and, hmm, mighty suspicious! Has anyone identified whatever particular religious iconography is being represented there? (The interconnected circles remind me of the Sephiroticum, though from what I can tell it's not the same thing.)

As for how that is possibly pertinent... Doesn't that place remind you of anything?

EDIT: Fixed the image links.

Originally posted on: 24-Jan-2004, 08:45 GMT