Reichu's Revelations: The First Humans, Angels, and the DSS

[AchtungAffen [ANF]]

Human + no breasts = not female.
Human + no breasts + not male = genderless.

Again, a very, very restrictive world view.

Yes, that's a very very restrictive Weltanschaung. Yet, that's not why I don't agree with the genders of the SoL's. I really don't want to start with this debate as you have yet to finish your analysis that will prove SoL's being female as necessary.

I'll only say this one thing: Do SoL's naturally reproduce?

Originally posted on: 28-Dec-2005, 17:58 GMT

[Mr. Tines [ANF]]

I have long suspected that this frequent determination has something to do, fundamentally, with the Eva-tachi's somewhat "alien" nature -- the foot taken into "uncanny valley", wherein we are presented with something very, very human, but it doesn't quite fit our own expectations and causes that commonplace psychic dissonance I've frequently encountered in the reactions to my artwork*.

There is a word for things that are nearly, but not quite human. That word is monster - in all its connotations. Where "not quite" starts and "nearly" ends seems to differ on person and context.

Originally posted on: 28-Dec-2005, 18:35 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

What about "Akira"?

Although I have yet to work out the precise details, one thing to understand is that Kaworu, aside from serving as a counterpart of Rei, also, unlike her, is a Bridge Entity betwen Lilith and Adam -- a Lilim produced by Adam. Akira* served as the father component -- which is why Kaworu is, in a very real sense, Misato's half-brother -- and Adam served as the mother. Although I believe that, similar to Rei and Yui, Kaworu is a pallette-swapped clone of Akira, for whom Adam only provided the surrogate womb. (And I mean that, too, in a very real sense.)


Lilith --> Adam (Adam + Lilim) = Tabris/Kaworu
Adam --> Lilith (Lilith + ADO) = Shogouki


SPOILER: If you want a further example of NGE's heavy utilization of irony, look no further than the owner of the fist wherein Kaworu embraces his own death...

Yes, that's a very very restrictive Weltanschaung. Yet, that's not why I don't agree with the genders of the SoL's. I really don't want to start with this debate as you have yet to finish your analysis that will prove SoL's being female as necessary.

I'll only say this one thing: Do SoL's naturally reproduce?

Yes. The fact that Lilith was able to produce Shogouki, and Adam produce Kaworu, absolutely proves this fact -- even though both gestations were artificially induced, they were biologically consummated. (Gee, I'm using that word an awful lot lately.) It's something for all of you to consider in the meantime. Bridge Entities would not be possible if the SoLs did not have preexisting reproductive faculties. That Lilith is able to gestate Shogouki is ESPECIALLY revealing, considering that LDOs, aside from Sho, did not require anything but the contents of her blood...

There is a word for things that are nearly, but not quite human. That word is monster - in all its connotations. Where "not quite" starts and "nearly" ends seems to differ on person and context.

"Monster" seems far too general to be applicable here. It can apply to almost countless things that are not humanoid in the slightest.

Although the associations with oni -- and, in EoE, akuma -- may be on the right track. (Despite the fact that Evas are very far removed from actual female oni.)

* Oh, come on, we don't need the quotations anymore; I think everyone understands that it's unofficial shorthand used to express affection for this troubled and exploited man. I find myself becoming increasingly fond of him, for some reason. I guess because I can relate to his own intellectual dilemma so well.

Originally posted on: 28-Dec-2005, 18:55 GMT

[AchtungAffen [ANF]]

Yes. The fact that Lilith was able to produce Shogouki, and Adam produce Kaworu, absolutely proves this fact -- even though both gestations were artificially induced, they were biologically consummated.

Don't know what you mean by biologically consumated. If that means egg and sperm, well I need evidence to believe that. As far as I know, from that Reiaquarium image, Eva-01 was spawned off from Lilith's legs, not given birth to as humans give birth to a child.

The fact that there was no Adam uterus (No size adequate Adam for that case) to create Eva-00 and 02 seems to indicate that Evas are not given birth to, but somehow fabricated from the remains of SoL's.

But cloning is not reproducing, at least not by some natural ability. If it were we could be having Rei clones mother somewhere. Adam producing Kaworu also doesn't say much, as for as long as evidence shows, Kaworu was most probably a fabrication like Rei, reconstructed body with a soul stuck in it. Not given birth to as with humans.

And also, are Evas sources of life? Because if they are not, that's not reproduction. To reproduce is to create a new entity with the same basics as the original one. My own body produces many living things, but I'm not reproducing. To reproduce is to continuate the species, to produce again what originally was (in its nature). A spawn off that isn't the same species cannot be considered reproduction.

Originally posted on: 28-Dec-2005, 19:28 GMT

[Ornette [ANF]]

Don't know what you mean by biologically consumated.

Perhaps: "Brought to completion through biological means"

Originally posted on: 28-Dec-2005, 19:48 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

Don't know what you mean by biologically consumated. If that means egg and sperm, well I need evidence to believe that. As far as I know, from that Reiaquarium image, Eva-01 was spawned off from Lilith's legs, not given birth to as humans give birth to a child.

I think you are missing the full implications of that image. Do I need to dig up my old EVA-01 thread again? Or, even better, reconstruct the process why which Lil and Sho's condition in that image was able to be realized in the first place? It isn't very pretty.

The fact that there was no Adam uterus (No size adequate Adam for that case) to create Eva-00 and 02 seems to indicate that Evas are not given birth to, but somehow fabricated from the remains of SoL's.

Again, you are misreading what I'm saying... I wasn't talking about the other Evas at all, although if you want my viewpoints on that matter, see here.

But cloning is not reproducing, at least not by some natural ability.

That Adam possessed an ovum that could become Tabris in the first place is an important observation to make. And, again, the truth about EVA-01's birth that you seem to be unwilling to consider.

If it were we could be having Rei clones mother somewhere. Adam producing Kaworu also doesn't say much, as for as long as evidence shows, Kaworu was most probably a fabrication like Rei, reconstructed body with a soul stuck in it. Not given birth to as with humans.

I think you are missing the significance of Kaworu's date of birth (which is absolutely correct) and of Akira's participation the the contact experiment. I have been throwing many things out at you which you can find in the actual show, but you don't seem to be following the breadcrumbs. Did I pick the wrong type of bread?

And, BTW, evidence shows that Kaworu gestated within a mandorla (Reichu-appointed terminology for the COA egg casing, based on the term's symbolic appropriateness). I'll show you the proof for this after I'm done messing with your heads. Unless, that is, someone can find it first...

And also, are Evas sources of life?

They have the potential to become one. That is what I mean by the Human Lifecycle.

Because if they are not, that's not reproduction. To reproduce is to create a new entity with the same basics as the original one.

I think this is a somewhat restrictive view of reproduction and refuses to recognize the full implications of the evidence. Assume, as I am trying to tell you, that Adam has a uterus and gives birth to children contained by mandorlas. Since I don't feel like revealing the secret of her children's origin yet (I've dropped a few significant hints, though, not unlike the show itself...), the very fact that she has an egg that can be "fertilized" by Akira's DNA in the first place says oodles about the further "applications" of that reproductive system. I don't think I need to tell you that human women, for example, can carry the fertilized ovum of a child completely unrelated to them to term. Are you going to tell me that this proves she is not capable of your definition of reproduction? It is an artificial exploitation of a very natural process.

Originally posted on: 29-Dec-2005, 08:07 GMT

[AchtungAffen [ANF]]

I think you are missing the full implications of that image. Do I need to dig up my old EVA-01 thread again? Or, even better, reconstruct the process why which Lil and Sho's condition in that image was able to be realized in the first place? It isn't very pretty.

That Adam possessed an ovum that could become Tabris in the first place is an important observation to make. And, again, the truth about EVA-01's birth that you seem to be unwilling to consider.

I don't know what is it that I'm unwilling to consider. As far as the Reiaquarium image goes, they're joined. As far as the liner notes goes (the canon ones, not ADV), they were joined by the torsos. Joined as in same body, not separate entities. I don't see how this counts as Lilith giving birth to Eva-01 as humans do. But from these 2 pieces of evidence, the most Occam razor compliant conclusion is that Eva-01 was spawned from Lilith's bodyparts. Unless I'm missing some factors which is what I think you imply. Then, tell me what those factors are.

I think you are missing the significance of Kaworu's date of birth (which is absolutely correct) and of Akira's participation the the contact experiment. I have been throwing many things out at you which you can find in the actual show, but you don't seem to be following the breadcrumbs. Did I pick the wrong type of bread?

In your interpretation of Katsuragi the senior's involvement. Something of which I'm not so sure. First of things is that until then there had been no succesful salvage experiment. Salvage as reconstructing a body and fixing the soul of someone dissolved during a contact experiment. As far as this evidence goes, if Katsuragi the senior had been in a contact experiment a la Yui or Kyoko, he would have been dissolved and not brought back, right?

And, BTW, evidence shows that Kaworu gestated within a mandorla

Show it then.

They have the potential to become one.

Yes, under extreme circumstances, like 3I. But in origin they weren't right? What kind of an offspring has the potential to become the same species as the mother being, yet being born a different one?

Assume, as I am trying to tell you, that Adam has a uterus and gives birth to children contained by mandorlas.

[...]

I don't think I need to tell you that human women, for example, can carry the fertilized ovum of a child completely unrelated to them to term. Are you going to tell me that this proves she is not capable of your definition of reproduction? It is an artificial exploitation of a very natural process.

I like some evidence with those assumptions please. A human mother with an already fertilized egg can give birth because it's in her nature to do so. It doesn't matter where the fertilization took place. What I'm not seeing here is the ability in the SoL's nature to reproduce, as to give birth in natural terms to an offspring of the same species.

Originally posted on: 29-Dec-2005, 08:26 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

I don't know what is it that I'm unwilling to consider.

"That... is why you fail."

As far as the Reiaquarium image goes, they're joined. As far as the liner notes goes (the canon ones, not ADV), they were joined by the torsos.

I'll need to look at them ago. Although, need I mention, extrapolations made in the show itself totally override whatever these "external sources" claim. I don't think Eva tomo no kai expressed the slightest idea of what the implications of Sammael are, for instance. n00bs!

Joined as in same body, not separate entities. I don't see how this counts as Lilith giving birth to Eva-01 as humans do.

You aren't filling in the steps that led to them ending up like that. I already told you to consider the way in which COAs are born, take EVA-01's own Adam-derived nature into account, and then factor in Lilith's unusual bodily properties. Then, consider Lilith's lack of a Super Solenoid and what this means for her. The clarity achieved is not an accident, AA.

But from these 2 pieces of evidence, the most Occam razor compliant conclusion is that Eva-01 was spawned from Lilith's bodyparts.

Compliant only if you analyse a mere fraction of the data.

Unless I'm missing some factors which is what I think you imply. Then, tell me what those factors are.

Sammael tells me that you need to wait. Meantime, I'm trying to give your own deductive skills an opportunity to find the answers yourself. If you aren't willing to do this, then you might as well wait.

In your interpretation of Katsuragi the senior's involvement. Something of which I'm not so sure.

Have you come up with a sensical explanation for 2I that I'm faithful will ultimately accomodate everything that we are told? Until you do...

First of things is that until then there had been no succesful salvage experiment. Salvage as reconstructing a body and fixing the soul of someone dissolved during a contact experiment.

Actually, you have been neglecting the full picture of what "salvage" actually means. (Hint: Listen to Ritsuko in #23.)

As far as this evidence goes, if Katsuragi the senior had been in a contact experiment a la Yui or Kyoko, he would have been dissolved and not brought back, right?

The thing is, it was a PHYSICAL contact experiment. It was not the same thing. It's pretty obvious that one cannot approach it with the assumption that our observations about Sho and Ni will have any sway whatsoever, because ADAM ALREADY HAS A SOUL. And the purpose of the Katsuragi experiment was to... well, geez, pop in #25' and listen to Misato yourself.
No one was planning on "pilotting" Adam. They were realizing Seele's plans.

Show it then.

Actually, I already have. :cackles:

Yes, under extreme circumstances, like 3I.

Um... You don't quite seem to understand what Yui had decided as early as 2003 and how she realized it over the course of 2015.

But in origin they weren't right? What kind of an offspring has the potential to become the same species as the mother being, yet being born a different one?

Consider: Adam, her offspring, Lilith, and Lilim are all described as "human". They do this for a reason.

I like some evidence with those assumptions please. A human mother with an already fertilized egg can give birth because it's in her nature to do so. It doesn't matter where the fertilization took place. What I'm not seeing here is the ability in the SoL's nature to reproduce, as to give birth in natural terms to an offspring of the same species.

A human mother would not be able to gestate a child that is not her own if she did not have the potential to have her own children. Please consider this, and then apply it back to the way in which the two Bridge Entities were born. I have a feeling that if you're not following me at all now, odds are you never will... Not as if this is something I didn't anticipate. I've got the Akira avatar going, after all.

Let me wrap this up with the reiteration that this thread exists before I will tackle the matter in full because I would like to give the forum-goers a chance to put together some of this from the own clues I am dishing out. If nobody is interested in doing this, might as well tell me so I restrain myself and just put everything in a Word document in the meantime...

Originally posted on: 29-Dec-2005, 08:47 GMT

[AchtungAffen [ANF]]

You aren't filling in the steps that led to them ending up like that. I already told you to consider the way in which COAs are born, take EVA-01's own Adam-derived nature into account, and then factor in Lilith's unusual bodily properties. Then, consider Lilith's lack of a Super Solenoid and what this means for her. The clarity achieved is not an accident, AA.

Eva-01 Adam derived nature. I bet that comes from Ritsuko's line in #23 and the opening having an eyecatch saying "Adam" and after that one saying "Eva-01". Yet, there's something here that can't be missed, and it's the inexistance of Lilith as such until the final parts of #24.

The thing is, it was a PHYSICAL contact experiment. It was not the same thing. It's pretty obvious that one cannot approach it with the assumption that our observations about Sho and Ni will have any sway whatsoever, because ADAM ALREADY HAS A SOUL. And the purpose of the Katsuragi experiment was to... well, geez, pop in #25' and listen to Misato yourself.

You mean to reduce Adam I presume. Contact being the lance. I still fail to see the relation between Katsuragi the senior and Kaworu here.

Actually, I already have. :cackles:

Where?

Um... You don't quite seem to understand what Yui had decided as early as 2003 and how she realized it over the course of 2015.

Which is...?

Consider: Adam, her offspring, Lilith, and Lilim are all described as "human". They do this for a reason.

Yet they're all different in essence. They don't have the same abilities. Even though Angels (3-17) might have common grounds with humans, they have some big essential differences. And these 2 groups have also essential differences with SoL's.

A human mother would not be able to gestate a child that is not her own if she did not have the potential to have her own children. Please consider this, and then apply it back to the way in which the two Bridge Entities were born. I have a feeling that if you're not following me at all now, odds are you never will... Not as if this is something I didn't anticipate. I've got the Akira avatar going, after all.

That's what I'm saying, she has the potential to carry her own children (the human mother). I still don't see how the creation of Rei (IMO by salvage experiment) proves Lilith can carry offspring.

Originally posted on: 28-Dec-2005, 22:03 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

The concept of the two Bridge Entities, Shogouki and Kaworu, is absolutely fundamental. (That's another word I've been using a lot lately.) It is the ONLY WAY this show will ever make sense to you.

And BTW, going back over everything that is said and done in #24 with this tidbit in hand: Everything makes sense. (Or, at least, enough sense that further contemplation will absolutely make all clear.) Consider:

- Kaworu was sent to die, even though "I was destined to live forever", etc.
- Keel says, "EVA-01, fulfill your duty"
- Kaworu dies at EVA-01's hand
- EVA-01 claims the future for humanity:
Evangelion can live forever... together with the human soul that dwells within it. Even after 5 billion years, when the Earth, the Moon, and even the Sun have disappeared, it will still exist as long as even one person still lives. It will be very lonely, but as long as that one person still lives...
It will be the eternal proof that humankind has existed...
This "future" clearly extends beyond far beyond the end of the Lilim. Hmm... Just what IS Yui planning on doing, anyway?


A plethora of important questions to ask yourself that are relevant here:

ANGELS (CHILDREN OF ADAM)

- Why are all of the Angels drawn to Tokyo-3?
- Why is Sandalphon originally humanoid? And why was he in that volcano?
- Why is Shamshel's genetic code so close to that of our own?
- Why does each Angel have a unique form?
- What is the nature of the growth that sprouts from EVA-00's back?
- If Angels are supposedly only interested in destroying the Lilim, how can the scope of their behavior be accounted for?
- How were the Angels created? Why do they only appear in 2015?
- Why are the Angels called the "True Successors"?
- What is the true meaning of Misato's revelations in #25'?

ADAM

- When we see Adam at Antarctica, why is Adam's core black? Why is she glowing white? Why does she have shoulder pylons?
- What exactly is the nature of the contact experiment with Adam? Why would they mention this if it didn't connect to something...?
- <insert>

KAWORU

- Why is Kaworu humanoid?
- Why does Hyuga tell Misato that Kaworu was born on Second Impact?
- Why does Rei tell Shinji that "he is as human as me"?
- Why does Kaworu have Adam's soul?
- How was Kaworu born? Why is his other name Tabris?
- What is the meaning of his initial words to Rei? Her rumination afterwards?
- Why does he go down to Terminal Dogma?
- Why does Rei follow?
- What is the meaning of their final eye contact?
- Why is he motivated to engage Rei in the first place? What is his intent?
- Why does Kaworu call Adam the Angels' "Mother"? What is the real meaning and intent of his words?
- Why does he so willingly embrace death?
- Why is Kaworu magnetized to Shinji in the first place?
- Why would Kaworu be exempt from NGE's recurring motif of parallelism?
- How is Misato's unique reaction to Kaworu accounted for? What might it potentially imply for her and her own connection to the Angels?

SPEAR

- What is the Spear?
- Why is it fundamental to Seele's goals?
- What was its role in both Impacts?
- Who created the Spear?
- What is behind the Spear's function as a weapon?
- Why was the Spear used on Lilith? Why did she regenerate when it is pulled out?
- How is EVA-01 able to "conjure" the Spear from her mouth after escaping EVA-01?
- Why do the copy Spears explode into amber-colored substance manifest with small legs?
- Why is Adam found impaled on the Spear? How did it get there? Why?
- Why does EVA-01 do the things with the Spear that she does? What is the logic behind it?

YUI/EVA-01

- Why does EVA-01 do what she does, when she does?
- What is the meaning of Yui and Kozo's conversation beneath the tree? How does the related scene at the end of #26' tie into it? What is the relation between Yui's words and our last sighting of EVA-01?
- Why does Yui take the Spear with her instead of destroying it?
- Why does Yui assimilate Zeruel's Super Solenoid, specifically?
- Why does she need a Super Solenoid in the first place?
- Why did Yui use Lilith to create EVA-01's body?
- Why are not only Lilith's legs missing as a result, but her arms atrophying as well?
- Just how was EVA-01's growth triggered in the first place?
- And just where is that LCL really coming from?!? And why?

OTHER

- What are the images in the Reiquarium depicting? What story are they telling?
- What is the significance of Ritsuko's words in this scene?
- Why is Sammael's image used in the beginning?
- What is the significance of the twelve wings?
- What is the true meaning of 'bunshin'?
- Why did Seele need Katsuragi's Super Solenoid theory? Just what does the theory entail in the first place?
- Why was Misato at the Antarctica research facility?
- What is the meaning behind the name "Angel"?
- What is the difference between "Human" and "Angel"?
- What does the opening scene of #21' tells us? What does it mean, and how does it apply to the greater scheme of thing?
- Who created the Secret Dead Sea Scrolls? And how did its author know everything contained within its pages?
- Why are Lilim the 18th Angel?
- Why are both Adam and Lilith called Angels, for that matter?
- What is the true nature of the Fruits?
- What is the meaning of Rei's inquiry, "Are humans something created by a god? Are humans something created by humans?"
- What are the implications of the structures and architecture present in Terminal Dogma?
- Who excavated the Geofront?
- Why is the surface structure of the White Moon "clearly artificial"?

I have — much to my own surprise, something I cannot emphasise enough — internally consistent answers for ALL of these. (Or, at least, inklings that bear fruit the more thought I give them.) Do you? Are you actually interested in answering them? How do you think you should approach this mission? How can you see it through to the end? Is there a reason why you haven't found the answers for yourself yet?

I don't think that what I have discovered is just happenstance. I am certain it's because I have cracked the cipher. Once this is done, decoding the entirety of the whole is possible. It is not possible to do this by accident or by "making sh1t up". It is only possible because, somehow, I have stumbled across the all-encompassing answer (entirely by serendipity, as is often the case...).

You cannot fill in the holes without accepting various premises that I am attempting to direct you towards, while hinting at, or outright TELLING YOU, where to find the clues. They are all right in from of your nose; if you can't smell it, get some tissues and cold medication, and drink plenty of water). Almost ALL of what happens in #26' will NEVER make sense if you deny the veracity of these concepts. You are, through your own perhaps inadvertent density, not even allowing yourself to pick up the pieces, let alone fit them into their rightful places.

My apologies, AA, but that slicker you are wearing is preventing the rains of my arguments from soaking in. There's only so much I can do before it's no longer worth it. ("You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make ver drink.") Hopefully, I will be able to provide the full picture to others, when I have done the necessary preparatory work, and they, at least, will be able to follow the path the show itself provides.

That said, everyone else is encouraged to look at the show with the clues I'm throwing at you... If you can figure any of this out in the interim between now and this thread's true realization, you will feel the show pat your on the back, because my hand will no longer be required.

That's really about all I can say for now, unless my brain makes more connections without my direct involvement and I need to be cruel and unusual in my own fangirl giddiness. "SQUEE!" So, expend a little effort and follow up on what I've said and the hints I've left, or wait…

Originally posted on: 28-Dec-2005, 22:44 GMT

[Colossus [ANF]]

Actually,in the Movie EoE and the series [i may be wrong],in the movie Misato says that the Angels are basically humans,that just choose a different appearence for themselfs.There was a more detailed exeplenation,but thats the most basic way of saying it.

I belive Kaoru said that Humans were the absolute final Angel,and that the Angels were on equal terms with humans also.Its all on how you think of it,there are very good exeplenations in this thread already.

Originally posted on: 29-Dec-2005, 00:00 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

Actually,in the Movie EoE and the series [i may be wrong],in the movie Misato says that the Angels are basically humans,that just choose a different appearence for themselfs.There was a more detailed exeplenation,but thats the most basic way of saying it.

I belive Kaoru said that Humans were the absolute final Angel,and that the Angels were on equal terms with humans also.Its all on how you think of it,there are very good exeplenations in this thread already.

Well, you're giving this thought, and that is good. But some points:

- Consider the implications that this has for other mentions of "human". Consider the context carefully. They are throwing two different definitions at you, and you have to figure out which "human" they are talking about, and when.
- Misato tells Shinji that humans (i.e., Lilim) are the 18th Angel. Why are Lilim qualified to be "Angels", and the rest of the lifeforms descended from Lilith not...?
- Is there a particular reason why the name "Angel" was chosen? Think about it. Remember: The SoLs (Sources of Life), Children of Adam, and Lilim are all "Angels".
- Misato tells us that Adam's Children are "human". Who else is identified as "human" aside from Lilim? Might there be a definition of "human" that transcends these groups? Something larger that encompasses them all, yet is not an "Angel"? Consider the questions that Rei has asked herself and how this might provide an answer that links with intimations (both verbal and visiual) given elsewhere in the series (specifically, the second half).

Originally posted on: 29-Dec-2005, 00:22 GMT

[Ornette [ANF]]

"Adam, the first human"

Originally posted on: 29-Dec-2005, 00:33 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

Yup. The pay-off for this bit is dealt in Kaworu's conversation with Seele in #24', and why he says that HE is the one "destined to inherit the future"...

Originally posted on: 29-Dec-2005, 00:39 GMT

[Mr. Tines [ANF]]

"Monster" seems far too general to be applicable here. It can apply to almost countless things that are not humanoid in the slightest.

Not all monsters are near-humans; all near humans are monsters - the Greeks populated their world with creatures bearing a close resemblance to common teratological defects in human development.

I think you are missing the significance of Kaworu's date of birth (which is absolutely correct)

2I is more like his conception, though, isn't it?

This "future" clearly extends beyond far beyond the end of the Lilim. Hmm... Just what IS Yui planning on doing, anyway?

Depending on broader cosmological issues, potentially either realizing a Tiplerian Omega Point in a Big Crunch; or seeding the next iteration of a cyclic ekpyrotic cosmos.

A plethora of important questions to ask yourself that are relevant here:



I have — much to my own surprise, something I cannot emphasise enough — internally consistent answers for ALL of these. (Or, at least, inklings that bear fruit the more thought I give them.) Do you? Are you actually interested in answering them? How do you think you should approach this mission? How can you see it through to the end? Is there a reason why you haven't found the answers for yourself yet?

Few of us, Reichu-sensei, as advanced enough along the path to enlightenment to see the Way beyond the areas where you have shed illumination. Where you leave what are clearly intended as dead giveaway hints are as Zen koans to those of us who have not yet perceived what the perceptual leap required is.

For me, I know that I do not approach NGE with clear eyes, because it is mentally filed alongside Last and First Men/Star Maker, A Fire Upon the Deep, Accelerando, Marooned in RealTime, and others, where concepts bleed the one into the other. And I know I'm usually better at tactical synthesis rather than strategic.

that slicker you are wearing is preventing the rains of my arguments from soaking in.

Rain? More like drinking from the fire-hose.

Originally posted on: 29-Dec-2005, 09:14 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

Not all monsters are near-humans; all near humans are monsters - the Greeks populated their world with creatures bearing a close resemblance to common teratological defects in human development.

Aww. I still think "monster" is a very unfair word. "Monster" is, like, Hitler. Or a pedophile. Or somebody who rapes chicks, flays them alive, and makes dresses out of their skin. I tend to think of "monsters" in the inner, as opposed to the outer, sense. But that's just me.

From the POV of those from whom the Evas inherited their biology, the way in which the form has been corrupted by hominids would probably seem pretty monstrous, too...

2I is more like his conception, though, isn't it?

Well, yeah, technically... Although I guess the deal with the COAs (<-- I want a more elegant shorthand for "Children of Adam" than this...) is that the ejection of the mandorla from the womb, or however they left Adam's body (maybe when Misato sees her, she's pausing to squirt them all out ) is equivocated to the live birth of Lilim, owing to the fact that they emerge from these shells in what could be considered "adult" form. Hence, in the same way that Shinji and the others are, in 2015, culturally becoming adults in their own right, the Children of Adam are Quickening* and emerging into the world themselves, after having discovered the shape they will take. (Although why Sandalphon is still in a blatantly pseudoembryonic state when he Quickens is a little strange to me. I've wondered if Sandalphon was a "premature birth", owing to the disturbance of his gestation.)

In any case, I do think that there are hidden parallels going on here, some of which Shin-seiki already hinted at for us: The connection that Sachiel inadvertently signals with his own chosen form. Shinji's generation are those who will inherit the future (consider what Shinji represents to Yui) because the other Children are all killed, and thus denied their own birthright.

But one thing I'm still up in the air about is the inherent incompatibility of the two types of humans. Rei and Kaworu seem to show us that they are inherently COMPATIBLE, and it is only the neglect and rejection that resulted in the horrible outcome that was dealt...

To the point. Kaworu/Tabris is PROBABLY an exception here, since he doesn't emerge from the Adam mold (something the other Children would presumably reach if not for the Quickening). I'm guessing that he would have hatched upon reaching the developmental stage when corresponds to our own exit from the womb, so one would guess nine months after 2I. But, again, the definition of "birth" is the COA one. Birth = emergence from the womb, and emergence from the mandorla = Quicken. (See, aren't these Reichu-isms useful?)

* Useful Reichu-ism for the time in an COA's life when the individual's imagination has decided what vis physical expression will be, and the ATF (and metaphysical biological principles involved) reshape the body, and transcend the inherent DNA's scope, accordingly. (Although it gains various other applications in BES that led me to inadvertently cracking the metabiology thing.)

Depending on broader cosmological issues, potentially either realizing a Tiplerian Omega Point in a Big Crunch; or seeding the next iteration of a cyclic ekpyrotic cosmos.

I think the actual answer is a bit simpler than that. And, er, in a language Reichu can understand, bitte!

And, shhh, I already used a fire-hose metaphor. I'm running out of metaphors pretty fast, if you've noticed.

So, how may I be less cruel to you all?

Originally posted on: 29-Dec-2005, 09:56 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

I suppose while I've gotten everybody's mind sizzled up about the Angels, I may as well expose one more revelation. Possibly because my insomnia is continuing and I have no idea what I'm doing anymore (with regard to thread creation and systematic exposition).

What draws all of Adam's Children to the same place? This includes Gaghiel: The encounter with the fleet was en route to Tokyo-3.

Well, think about it. What is in Tokyo-3 that exists no where else?

No, not Lilith. Think. Where did the Angels originally come from?

The White Moon. What happened to the White Moon?

It was destroyed. And Adam's Childrens were scattered across Earth as a result.

What I believe they are doing is using this other moon, a structure resembling the "home" -- the "nest" -- they have lost, as an intuitive "rendevzous point". It is here where they hope to be reunited with one another: After all, they are all Human, and even though each one represents a self-appointed possibility for physical form, inside they are all the same. Inside, they are very much like us, although the nature of their own inherent incompleteness is slightly different. They do not want to exist alone. They want to have others with whom they can live.

"I Need You."

The fact that they do not all awaken at the same time is what leads up to the tragedy of Armisael, the one who awakens last. As I've said, she is the orphan, who, through Rei, comes to an understanding of the feelings of desolation that have greeted her in Tokyo-3, and her own complete naivete and innocence result in subsequent, largely well-intentioned actions that might seem very pernicious indeed. The significance of the giggling (and, indeed, what that theme implies for Rei at large) is something I haven't quite realized, but everything else is fitting into the premise of Armisael's character, and what it means in the grander scheme of her family.

So, yes. These Children have come to Tokyo-3 hoping to assemble at the Moon and have a reunion of sorts. But, of course, what they all discover is that, when they get there, the only thing they encounter is hostility. In almost all cases, this is expressed before they have been given so much as a chance for a meaningful contact with their counterparts...

I hinted about the ramifications this holds for the epitome of the Children, Zeruel -- the one whom Yui has been waiting for, from an opportunistic and predatory point of view. (Despite the fact that like much else, it is ultimately, to Yui, a necessary evil, and a deeply unfortunate course of action for which she owes a heavy and profound debt to their mother.) He is the greatest and the strongest, and his Super Solenoid is, thus, the finest sample Yui will encounter. But, back to the point. Zeruel's clean efficiency, at first, is directed towards the first two Evas he encounters. Could this be a sense of "compassion" at work? "Even though you are attacking me, I'll spare you because of what you are"?

However, I think it is very telling what happens once Zeruel makes contact with the Wee Folk in the Command Center. He has come for his Mother. And he is very, very pissed off.

He is also forced to reconsider his policy of compassion when he is interrupted by EVA-01, who takes him completely off guard. And we know how he retaliates against her, the first opportunity he has. Rather tellingly different than how he had reacted to the first two -- those half-sisters who had impeded him the least. He apparently doesn't approve of the way EVA-01 has made things Really Up-Close and Personal, and determines that she no longer deserves his tolerance... And what we ultimately see is the destruction of his own defenses and the frightened vulnerability he expresses before he joins his older siblings at Yui's maw.

Onto another example.

Arael is able to approach from a safe vantage point, but even she is rejected, due to her somewhat badly-chosen target and her own lack of awareness about the full ramifications of her actions. I think it's probably safe to say that she had no concept of what on Earth would produce the sort of reaction Kyoko and Asuka gave her, as opposed to, "Why, hello there, you can come down now, I'm not going to hurt you... We are sisters, you and I."

I suppose it didn't help that Asuka herself certainly didn't have the slightest conception of who she was really fighting, or why... They were simply targets to be destroyed as part of her job description. Unlike Rei, who already has a rather well-cultivated sense of who they are ("the person who we call an Angel"), and Shinji, who wonders about their true nature himself (see #11), Asuka doesn't give a damn. And perhaps this is part of the reason why her own contact with one goes so badly.

They were neglected and rejected, something which Misato only realizes the truth of after she has oversoon the complete destruction of their family -- ending with her own brother / father reborn.

Originally posted on: 29-Dec-2005, 14:15 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

Some random bit I just noticed:

Ibuki:
That boy was the last Angel, wasn't he?

Aoba:
Yes, all Angels were supposedly destroyed.

Hyuga:
Aren't we finally at peace?

<insert>

Originally posted on: 29-Dec-2005, 17:35 GMT

[AchtungAffen [ANF]]

Yes! I always thought about that too. That the Angels went to the closest thing that resembled the now gone white moon. Yet, when that supposedly Eva2 game info appeared on evangelion.ca, it said:

It's described that the Angel's actions are basically survival instincts. Some with purpose to access with Lilith, which will "reset" all life (thus give them rooms to start over? not sure exactly what this means), some with purpose to retrieve their own "creator" Adam, and some just don't think about anything. Overall, Angels are sent to ensure the survival of Adam based life forms on Earth.

Kind of shattering that theory. Still, that's info yet to be confirmed I believe.

Originally posted on: 29-Dec-2005, 19:47 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

I think they are yet compatible. The Black Moon Magnetization Hypothesis bears far too much fruit to be accidental. Armisael's case says loads in and of itself, and it only makes sense if these Angels were seeking each other out. THAT is the reason for the "Angel Conglomeration" growth that sprouts from Armisael. This occurs IMMEDIATLEY FOLLOWING the realization of what "this feeling" she shares with Rei is. While Armi does not initially understand why this feeling brings her pain, Rei explains it: "You are one, but we are many; that's what we call loneliness". And this loneliness results precisely because Armisael is the last natural Adanoko and has no chance of ever meeting her family. Thus, in her desolation and loneliness, she begins an attempt to recreate her brothers and sisters through her own powers of biomass manipulation. Is it any accident that the initiation of her desire is what prompted Gendo to sortie EVA-01? I don't think so!!! :cough:cause and effect:cough:

It is also telling that, with Rei's help in learning about herself and the "borrowing" of Rei's Eva body, Armisael seeks to, in turn, help Rei quench her own inherent loneliness. THIS is why Armisael passes Nigouki by, but immediately goes for EVA-01, who she knows, through Rei, contains the one with whom Rei's heart wants to be, in some way or another. An additional revelation I made is why Armisael assumes Rei's form: Shinji, through EVA-01, will not allow her to Contact -- and thus fulfill Rei's desire, again, the only way she knew how -- and retaliates with violence (hence the scream). Hence, she produces from herself the image of Rei, and, as she had hoped, this causes Shinji to yield...

Although I still want to unlock the mystery of that creepy fscking giggling. WTF is so funny, eh?

With the truth of the 16th Angel at hand, we are equipped thus with the ability to reinterpret everything we "knew" about the others. Armisael is KEY to realizing the truth behind the Angels' true motivations, and how, not unlike their counterparts, their desires did not always coincide... It's critical to remember that some of the information provided in NGE (like "Adam as first human") is true, but not in an all-encompassing sense...

Hence, we can see how, say, Zeruel gives away his own vengeful intentions: He was rather intent on vaporizing the Lilim imprisoning his mother, and at point-blank range at that, and, one can extrapolate, he was almost certainly intent on erasing them from the face of the planet altogether, to protect himself and whatever family remained from these venomous creatures -- and to secure their birthright. Other Angels, however, were not quite on the same boat.

Originally posted on: 30-Dec-2005, 08:22 GMT