Kaworu Nagisa and the Imaginary Monoliths

[Ornette [ANF]]

• Episode 24' scene probably did happen because there's no logical reason for it to not have (Occam's Razor also agrees with me).

I don't think anyone said that this scene didn't happen. More specifically, that the monolith's weren't actually there, Misato can't see them, she can only see Kaworu.

As for skimming through most of the thread, I can understand why you came to your conclusion. But you can probably stop reading when Fuzzy Chickens started posting, even slightly before, as most of the bulk of the discussion is in the first 2 pages (I dunno, I only see 4 pages).

Originally posted on: 16-Feb-2006, 09:18 GMT

[Seele08 [ANF]]

Virgins on birth control: What a waste! Call me when you change your mind... or turn 18. Whichever comes first, beby.

Though I totally agree with everything else you said, I'll have you know that my periods are extremely painful and without the "pill" I cannot function during that week.

Originally posted on: 16-Feb-2006, 11:08 GMT

[bjamieson [ANF]]

We're not talking about the enumeration of "Angels" here; we're talking about Adam's individual children in the order of their respective hatchings and deaths. Israfel is two different individuals ("Kou" and "Otsu"). Fifteen dead (= disembodied souls) total, just as per the image here.

Understood.

But I still don't understand the significance of this revelation or see any reason that believing this is necessary. It just seems to add complications that don't need to be there... ?

I don't think anyone said that this scene didn't happen. More specifically, that the monolith's weren't actually there, Misato can't see them, she can only see Kaworu.

I know. I articulated that poorly. I was hoping, "Eps 24' scene did not happen (SEELE wasn't really there)" would clarify what I meant. That is, the conversation took place in Kaworu's head - yada yada yada.

The Misato issue is vague. I know the "We don't know the technology" argument has already been dismissed, but I see that as far more valid than saying Kaworu's having his episode 25 moment. We see that the hologram technology that SEELE uses is a two way deal in episode 23, with Gendo (IIRC). Gendo is sitting inside of SEELE's "lair" at his desk talking to them, the when the Angel interrupts *he* disappears. It's fair to assume that it's because Gendo never left his office in NERV. He was being transmitted to them. Kaworu's case could easily be the same. Does it make complete sense? No. But I think it makes enough sense, and introduces reasonable doubt to this theory. The fact is we *don't* know what the tech is like, nor does it even matter.

Frankly, I don't even care if Kaworu is really talking to SEELE in that scene. I just think it's a strange theory to make. It sounds more to me like desperation for something, anything, new to discuss than it does an actually valid observation that has *any* repurcussions to the story/characters.

As for skimming through most of the thread, I can understand why you came to your conclusion. But you can probably stop reading when Fuzzy Chickens started posting, even slightly before, as most of the bulk of the discussion is in the first 2 pages (I dunno, I only see 4 pages).

You have your posts per page setting higher than mine. I never fudged with the defaults.

Originally posted on: 16-Feb-2006, 12:07 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

To avoid the public unpleasantness for which this thread has become so notorious, I have utilized Private Messaging Technology. Check it out, Mr. Jamieson.

Originally posted on: 16-Feb-2006, 12:40 GMT

[LuigiHann [ANF]]

Ok, I hate to reopen this argument, but...

SEELE 01 dissolves out of the sky.
SEELE 01: But there is one man who is trying to obtain power equal to that of God.
SEELE 12: There is a man, who is not one of us, attempting to open Pandora's box again.
SEELE 04: There is a man trying to close the Box before the Hope at the bottom appears.
KAWORU: Hope? You're saying that is the Lilim's hope?
SEELE 10(?): Hope exists in as many forms as there are people.
SEELE 12: And that is because hope only exists within the hearts of people.
SEELE 01: However, our hope is becoming substantiated.
SEELE 04: That is Lilith, the progenitor of mankind who are the false successors from the black moon.
SEELE 10(?): And Adam, the progenitor of the Angels, who are the true successors from the lost white moon.
SEELE 12: His salvaged soul exists only within you.
SEELE 01: However, his resurrected body already exists within Ikari.
KAWORU: Shinji's father. So he is also the same as me.
SEELE 01: That is why we entrust you with our wish.
KAWORU: I know. That's why I'm here now after all.
KAWORU: All will be as the Lilim direct it.

I bolded the lines I find the most interesting. They seem to support the "Apostle souls speaking" theory more than anything, but it could also be Kaworu amalgamating things that Seele has said with things that he has inferred. But the bit regarding mankind as "false successors" and the angels as "true successors" is really key, I think. Does Seele imply that they believe anything along those lines in any other scene? They seem to be glorifying the angels much more than they do any other time. On the other hand, if this is the Angels speaking, why refer to themselves in the third person as "angels"? On the other hand, lines like "a man, who is not one of us," does lean toward the angel theory, as does the fact that Kaworu uses the term "Lilim" as though the people he's speaking to are not Lilim. Particularly in his last line, "All will be as the Lilim direct it," which could mean that he's referring to Seele as "Lilim," and deciding to do what they told him, but given Kaworu's final conversation with Shinji, it seems more like Kaworu's deciding to ignore most of the instructions he's been given, and let Shinji make the ultimate descision as a representative for the Lilim.
I wonder if Kaworu just doesn't consider Seele to be included in "The Lilim" for some reason? Seele presumably wanted him to believe they were "on his side," so perhaps they presented themselves as Angels, or something else altogether? I don't know. It seems like in general Kaworu has a good grasp on who's human and who's not, so I don't think that works.
But ultimately, if the creators had intended the scene to represent Kaworu speaking to the souls of the angels, why would they use Seele monoliths to represent angel souls, rather than perhaps red dots or something? I get that Seele means soul, so the logic is there, but this goes beyond Eva-style-ambiguity into the realm of 'extremely misleading.' Having Seele represent the Angels in one scene, when there's no real connection between Seele and the Angels, doesn't quite seem logical, even by Eva standards.
So I'm torn.

Originally posted on: 20-Mar-2006, 15:50 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

Quick point (I have to go): When Kaworu is approaching Lilith and "talking to himself", he says, "Adam, the entity who is our mother." Blah blah blah.

Well, why use "our" if you're talking to yourself?

:throws down ninja powder:

Originally posted on: 20-Mar-2006, 17:09 GMT

[Scutilla [ANF]]

Having Seele represent the Angels in one scene, when there's no real connection between Seele and the Angels, doesn't quite seem logical, even by Eva standards.
So I'm torn.

I agree- although a lot of Eva is smoke-and-mirrors, in many cases the most obvious/logical answer is the right one. They look like Seele, they (mostly) talk like Seele, and it's logical for Seele to be there (since Kaworu was sent by Seele, they'd want to keep in touch with him, and I'm willing to accept either "secret organization super-technology to create holograms anywhere" or "symbolism for Kaworu using his Angel powers to communicate with Seele" as explanations). I admit that a couple discrepancies (mostly the unusal number of monoliths and the part about Angels being true successors), but I think that it's easier to explain those than to jump to a completely different conclusion.

Possible explanations for a couple of your highlighted lines (I haven't read the thread in full, so a couple of these points may have been made previously):

"Who is not one of us": They state immediately before that he "is a man", so why would they need to say that he's not one of the Angels right after? It seems kinda redundant- if he's a man, he's obviously not one of the Angels. On the other hand, Gendo's not exactly a full-fledged SEELE member, so the line makes sense in that context.

"Angels, the true successors": Although this gets into a completely different subject (and may be completely incorrect), I've always had the impression that Adam was the one that "got there first", was the SoL that was meant to be sent to Earth, and Lilith's coming there was an accident. So in that case, Adam's supposed to be there, and his children are the "true successors" of Earth.

"As the Lilum direct it": Well, SEELE are Lilum, right? And they're telling Kaworu what to do. So he's just saying "All will be as SEELE directs it".

Well, why use "our" if you're talking to yourself?

I think I see where you're going with that... there was a thread about how the images of the Angels started sprouting out of Eva-00 when Armisael tried to infuse with her; it led people to believe that Armi had access to the souls of all prior Angels and was trying to resurrect them through Eva-00. So, Kaworu could have access to the souls of the prior Angels as well, and was communicating with them for advice or what-not.

So assuming that this is true, would every Angel be able to communicate with those who went before? Or are Armi and Tabris special in some way? (Well, we know Tabris is special...)

Originally posted on: 20-Mar-2006, 18:38 GMT

[LuigiHann [ANF]]

It seems kinda redundant- if he's a man, he's obviously not one of the Angels.

Just playing devil's advocate here, but Kaworu himself is both a man and an Angel
Not to mention the recurring theme that all angels are "human" and that mankind itself is also an angel.

Originally posted on: 20-Mar-2006, 18:57 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

The dialogue for this scene is something I still need to put a magnifying glass over. That ought to be fairly enlightening...

I'm still boggling over just what, exactly, this "Pandora's Box" is.

But ultimately, if the creators had intended the scene to represent Kaworu speaking to the souls of the angels, why would they use Seele monoliths to represent angel souls, rather than perhaps red dots or something? I get that Seele means soul, so the logic is there, but this goes beyond Eva-style-ambiguity into the realm of 'extremely misleading.' Having Seele represent the Angels in one scene, when there's no real connection between Seele and the Angels, doesn't quite seem logical, even by Eva standards.
So I'm torn.

In my experience, strange things like this eventually fall into place -- but only once you accept the premise and let yourself get dragged to wherever it wants to take you. There seem to be an awful lot of suspicious things happening in this scene, don't there? No harm in at least exploring the alternative (= not Seele) and seeing if it goes somewhere good...

IMO.

there was a thread about how the images of the Angels started sprouting out of Eva-00 when Armisael tried to infuse with her; it led people to believe that Armi had access to the souls of all prior Angels and was trying to resurrect them through Eva-00.

Hmm? You don't sound convinced.

So, Kaworu could have access to the souls of the prior Angels as well, and was communicating with them for advice or what-not.

Not so much "having access" to them as, perhaps, potentially involving them in a stunt along the same lines as what Armisael attempted.

(Kaworu standing on EVA-02's umbilical bridge)

KAWORU:
Come on, let's go.
Come with me, Adam's alter ego and servant of the Lilim.

***

(Bridge.)

Misato (MONO):
But why did the Angel take EVA-02?

FUYUTSUKI (whispers):
Could it be planning to merge with EVA-02?

IKARI:
Or possibly to bring about destruction.

***

(The two Evas knife away at each other.)

KAWORU:
The Eva series.
Born from Adam, they are an abhorrent existence for humans.
And the Lilim will even use them in order to survive.
I can't understand.

Shinji:
Kaworu, stop this! Why?!

KAWORU:
The Eva are made of the same body as I am.
Because I am born from Adam as well.
I could merge with them, if only they didn't have souls.
EVA-02's soul has shut itself away for now.

***

(Kaworu floats in front of Lilith)

KAWORU:
Adam, our mother. [Note the "our" (warera no).]
Must all who were born of Adam return to Adam?
Even at the cost of destroying humanity?

KAWORU:
No! This is...

KAWORU (OFF):
Lilith?

KAWORU:
I see, so that's what this is about, Lilim.

( :fall: :splash: :stomp: :grab: )

KAWORU:
Thank you, Shinji.

KAWORU (OFF):
I wanted you to stop EVA-02.

KAWORU:
Otherwise, I may have gone on living with her.

Shinji:
Kaworu, why?

KAWORU:
Because it's my destiny to continue to live even if it may result in
the destruction of humanity.
But I can also die here.

Some damned strange shee-yat going on in this episode...

Originally posted on: 20-Mar-2006, 21:32 GMT

[Scutilla [ANF]]

Hmm? You don't sound convinced.

That's because I'm not That scene's just as odd, and I'm witholding judgement on it for now- just pointing it out that that was where you were probably leading to.

Some damned strange shee-yat going on in this episode...

I'll certainly agree with you there...

EDIT: After reading the full thread (well, up to when the discussion ended and the flames began), I'm a little (not completely) more receptive to the idea.

Two questions for Reichu:
1) What is your take on Iruel and the question of how many souls ve ("she" I guess, going by that silly thing on Angel genders in the FGC) has? It was mentioned earlier on, but I don't think you ever addressed it.
2) Was the image you posted applying certain Angels to certain monoliths (and thus attributing certain lines to certain Angels) meant to be taken literally, or was it just meant to show that the numbers match up?

EDIT 2: I like that image, LuigiHan

Originally posted on: 20-Mar-2006, 22:22 GMT

[LuigiHann [ANF]]

Some damned strange shee-yat going on in this episode...

In Evangelion? No way!


But yeah, I'm sure that scene has even more going on than I can fathom. My assumption is something like:
Even though he knows that Gendo has Adam's body within himself, he doesn't seem to take that literally. Perhaps because he intuitively believes Adam's body is too big for it to be literally within a person, or something, but the "so he's also like me" line must be a clue to how he's interpreting it... Anyway, Seele sent him there with some mission (although it's possible they just sent him there to die, but presumably they told him his job would be something other than dying, although, maybe they just said "go over there and get killed by an Eva" and he said "okay"... anyway), and now we have this theory that the angels themselves have communicated with him, and want him to do something else... Seele's goal might have been a destroy-all-life 3I, or just to fulfil a certain aspect of the scrolls... whereas the Apostle's hope would likely involve bringing back all the angels, but likely destroying humanity in the process?
In any event, Kaworu likely senses a powerful presense coming from Terminal Dogma, and apparently he thinks that's where Adam really is, although he's not especially surprised when it's Lilith. So anyway he takes Unit 2 and floats down there, and clearly expects Shinji to interrupt him. Most likely, he's "going through the motions" of whatever he was told to do, but secretly hoping he'll be stopped, because his sympathy is with Shinji and the Lilim and he'd rather have them survive.
So, the ultimate question is: What the heck was his plan, why did he need Eva-02 and Adam, would Eva-02 and Lilith have worked just as well or was it ruined then anyway, and whose plan was it? Also, if my vague assumptions are accurate, why would he bother going through with the plan if he didn't actually intend to go all the way? (Maybe he's more like Shinji than we thought, maybe he just does what he's told... but he's just looking for a way out of it)... Okay, this is complicated. I already have no idea what the heck is going on.

Originally posted on: 20-Mar-2006, 22:39 GMT

[Magami No ER [ANF]]

Wouldn't it be "wei"?

~Ghey nitpick.

Originally posted on: 20-Mar-2006, 23:42 GMT

[LuigiHann [ANF]]

Internet memes do not speak proper Japanese

Oh, I have an even better question*
*not really better
Why does Gendo even let Kaworu come to Nerv? If Ritsuko knows enough to infer that he's probably an Angel, Gendo must know it. He doesn't act too surprised when Kaworu starts heading toward Lilith, but then again, he rarely acts surprised about anything. But seriously:
Gendo: Looks like the Second Child isn't workin' out. We're gonna need another "Marduk Report." Heh.
Keel: Actually, I know just the guy. We've been saving him for this. He can sync with any Eva, pretty much.
Gendo: What? How is that possible? And why didn't you send him before?
Keel: He's special. And it wouldn't have worked before anyway.
Gendo: Wait... he's an Angel, isn't he.
Keel: . . . No. We even have ID papers to prove it.
Gendo: These are all blacked out! All it says is his birthday... which is Second Impact! Is this the angel/kid they made during Second Impact?
Keel: . . . I gotta go.
Gendo: You know, maybe we'll just get another kid from Shinji's class.
Keel: NO! YOU TAKE KAWORU OR YOU'RE FIRED!
Gendo: Geez, fine. Hope you don't mind if Shinji kills him.


My point being, I don't think there's any way that Gendo wouldn't suspect Kaworu of being an Angel, given what he knows and his relationship with Seele, so how dumb does Seele think he is if they think they fooled him? And I mean, why does Gendo let him get so far? Unless he's "in on it" too, which seems odd considering that dialog on both sides suggests that Kaworu was sent from Seele to Nerv as a "Screw you, Ikari." Then again, maybe it was never a trick, just a threat of sorts, but I dunno.

Originally posted on: 21-Mar-2006, 03:48 GMT

[drgenestarwind [ANF]]

Kaworu says that "all will be as the lillim direct it" isnt this then saying that he has already made the choice to defy his destiny and die or be killed?

Originally posted on: 21-Mar-2006, 04:17 GMT

[LuigiHann [ANF]]

I don't know if there's anything useful in the original Japanese, but it seems like "all will be as the lillim direct it" uses "direct" in the future sense, as in, he's going to let the Lilim direct his actions, which I interpret to mean that he's giving Shinji the choice of killing him, or letting him live and destroying all of humanity.
Nice choice.

Originally posted on: 21-Mar-2006, 04:35 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

Gendo needs Adam's soul to accomplish the "forbidden fusing of Adam and Lilith". Without Adam's soul, he's just got an aborted fetus; with it, he's got the Fruit of Life in hand. (Har, har.)

Okay, I glanced at the Japanese*, and they decided that they wanted to be cruel to me, after all. The line about the false successors refers to, "Kuroki Tsuki yori no warera jinrui", or, literally, "our humankind [or, perhaps more fluently, 'we humans'] from the Black Moon".

Well, that certainly does seem to tell us who the words are coming from -- doesn't it, Reichu?

So that purges some ambiguity from my mind, but it still leaves the underlying problems to be dealt with. I still heavily suspect that there is something going on here beyond the "dialogue"... For the dialogue itself, I'm going to have to look at Tyrus' original suggestion again. But, for the "unspoken" part: The angel statue, the lake, and the number 15 seem to be our most important clues.

* I'll do the more thorough dissection later...

Originally posted on: 21-Mar-2006, 04:45 GMT

[Scutilla [ANF]]

Hmm, the Angel statue is another puzzling thing... if memory serves, it just shows up after Eva-00's death, and its neck is covered with blood after Kaworu gets his head popped off.

(Also, I seem to recall the statue looking almost identical to when Lilith is in the process of turning into GNR-form, right after her mask falls off- the backbone, breasts, and body position were all very similar, though I may have to compare the two scenes to refresh my memory.)

Originally posted on: 21-Mar-2006, 12:41 GMT

[Magami No ER [ANF]]

Yeah, there's that whole great bit regarding that in a Comentary page, presented just as you said.

Originally posted on: 21-Mar-2006, 15:22 GMT

[Scutilla [ANF]]

Yeah, there's that whole great bit regarding that in a Comentary page, presented just as you said.

Hmm, browsed through a bit of the commentary stuff, but couldn't find it- ah well, maybe later.

An idea occured to me today that, while probably invalidated now that Reichu's negated her own theory with the original Japanese wording, is still interesting.

Assuming that the fifteen monoliths represent Angels #3-16 (which may or may not be true), we also have Kaworu/Tabris/Adam (who represents Angels #18, #17, and #1 respectively), standing on top of a statue that's more or less the gravemarker for Rei-1, who once held the soul of Lilith (Angel #2). So indirectly, we have all 18 Angels represented.

Originally posted on: 21-Mar-2006, 15:54 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

Hmm, browsed through a bit of the commentary stuff, but couldn't find it- ah well, maybe later.

That's because it wasn't a commentary page. It was a little "slide show" I did eons back that highlighted some of the visual and thematic linkage encompassed by that one statue. As it went, though, I missed a lot of stuff.

An idea occured to me today that, while probably invalidated now that Reichu's negated her own theory with the original Japanese wording, is still interesting.

I wouldn't say that the entire theory is unsalvageable -- just the part about the dialogue belonging to the Apostles (but "disguised" as Seele's). The fact that there are 15 monoliths is a hint that shouldn't, I think, be dismissed. You still have to wonder... Just why the hell DID Kaworu go out there first thing in the morning? Something tells me that it wasn't to have an impossible conversation with Seele.

Originally posted on: 21-Mar-2006, 16:06 GMT