The Nature of Rei. Again.

[Reichu [ANF]]

Where are they?

Just search for posts by them in this forum. Almost anything you read will probably prove my point, whatever precisely that was...

Originally posted on: 22-Nov-2004, 16:21 GMT

[thewayneiac [ANF]]

It's all your fault, Wayne.

What, just because I had him squirming in the grasp of reason?

Originally posted on: 22-Nov-2004, 18:54 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

What, just because I had him squirming in the grasp of reason?

Sure. If you like.

Originally posted on: 22-Nov-2004, 19:27 GMT

[Gaizokubanou [ANF]]

Yup... this discussion is dead

Originally posted on: 23-Nov-2004, 19:04 GMT

[Knives [ANF]]

What, just because I had him squirming in the grasp of reason?

.. Or it could be that this University attempts to have everything due just before Thanksgiving "break" (essentially a four-day weekend [compared to the three-day weekends 85% of the student body already have every week) — if you want to consider Thanksgiving a day off at all (running between dinners, dealing with drunk family members and the list goes on).

In any case —

In skimming some responses, it seems some are coming to the conclusions (or at least something like the conclusions) I intended. In the meantime, however, I'll be at home for Thanksgiving (which means no net access). When I return (Sunday), school has several major assignments for me to attend to, after which I'll finally be able to respond properly _ .

I'm sure in my absence (combined with the coming absence), I'll have a large amount to cover ...

The Lilith embodied issue is close to my thoughts (as I stated [however briefly] that my position as it stands [that is to say, without proper clarification] calls for some understanding on the part of the reader of the Christian Trinity [God, Holy Spirit, Jesus {the latter being God embodied}]). But again, without proper explanation this sounds like it's just pulled out of a hat.

By mentioning this, I only mean to point out what's being said (again, based on what I viewed from a brief skimming) seems to be pointing/leading in this direction (which was, to some degree, my intention — although, I didn't expect people to get there without some more speaking on my part and a little more thorough explanation of some of the defenses thus far).

So yeah .. I haven't feigned away from the issue. I've just been extremely busy. And now, without access to the net, followed by another busy week, prospects of me getting to this matter sooner rather than later look slim.

My intent is that by this time next week (that is to say Tuesday or Wednesday), that I'd have a proper response written.

Sorry folks.

I'm flattered you're all so concerned, though .

Originally posted on: 24-Nov-2004, 10:55 GMT

[MDWigs [ANF]]

Ok there are so many Rei threads now I didn't really know where to put this.

I just ran across this quote recently posted to the Eva ML. I remember reading it ages ago before (it's from the same interview where Anno's infamous My Life Itself quote came from), but I had forgotten specifically what it said.

From the Anime Expo 1996 interview with Hideaki Anno which appeared in Protoculture Addicts #43, pages 40 and 41.

Anno had this to say about Rei:

"Rei-chan is very popular, I think that she's very quiet and doesn't wish to talk very much, and doesn't complain. In Japan, I suppose girls like that are very much desired. They're quiet and patient, don't complain and work hard. As for Rei-chan, she was created as a pilot for Evangelion....in other words, she is a clone of a human being. When we humans are born, in general, we just show up without having a purpose in human life! Later, we find a purpose and choose our own way and decide how to live our life. Rei-chan's case is not like that. She was created with the purpose solely of being an Eva's pilot and I'm not quite sure if she's happy." Rei means "Zero", derived from the WW2 Mitsubishi fighter/kamikaze planes."

I've bolded the points relevant to this discussion.

Straight from Anno's mouth, Rei's purpose is to be an Eva pilot. She was specifically created to be an Eva pilot.

So a bit of reinterpretation is in order I think.

At least this statement clears up the issue regarding Asuka being declared the Second Children in 2005, right before Kyoko's suicide. She could be declared the Second Children because Rei had been created that point becoming the First Children. This does pose a bunch of questions though regarding the timing and decision to use children as pilots. Rei seems to be the starting point, and if she was created with the purpose of piloting Evas then that means they must have been facing a problem of how to control them (which throws back to the question about what was the reason for Yui's contact experiment with Eva-01, we know why Yui wanted to do it, but what did everyone else think they were doing, they were surprised Yui got absorbed after all – were they looking for a way to control the Evas?). So if Rei was created because they needed to control the Evas, how does that relate to her importance in Gendou's plans for Third Impact. Did he only realise the "extra" benefits afterwards. If Rei was created as the First specifically to be a pilot, then Asuka became the Second because her mother's soul was in Eva-02, so was Shinji's designation as the Third Children a last minute decision by Gendou because Rei was hurt and possibly couldn't do it? If not then why wasn't Shinji designated the Third much earlier, or even the Second before Asuka. Lots of cool questions here

Here's my interpretation with respect to Rei's creation. I still believe that Rei having Lilith's soul was an accident that came about as a result of the salvage attempt. I think they were attempting to retrieve Yui, that she didn't want to come, and that what they got was Yui's form, with Lilith's soul (due to the fact that Eva-01 and Lilith were still connected at that point). I think that first and foremost Gendou was trying to get Yui back. He didn't though, he got something different. I think he then went about making this "by-product" useful, in which case Rei as we know her was created. Reichu has just recently talked about the difference between where Yui was "lost" and Rei was "born" (see this post). The salvage experience couldn't have taken place in the room where Rei was "born", there simply isn't enough room. I don't think Eva-01/Lilith was moved, I think that the salvage experiment took place where they were (and only later were they severed, separated and moved). So this means the specific creation of "Rei" was a secondary step. To turn the "by-product" of the failed salvage attempt into what we know as "Rei" and also cloning multiple times to produce backups.

So here is what I think happened.

A - Yui is absorbed into Eva-01/Lilith
B - A salvage experiment is performed to retreive Yui
C - The salvage attempt fails, and they get "by-product" Yui clone with Lilith's soul instead.
D - This "by-product" is still in or attached to Eva-01/Lilith (Shinji was sort of "birthed" from Eva-01 in episode 20 so this makes this point kinda tenuous). The “thing” would at least be in the same room though.
E - This being was "gathered" or separated, taken from Eva-01/Lilith, cleaned up, and then "awoken", ie born, as Rei in the room identified as her birthplace.
F - At some point multiple clones were made of her.

It's convoluted, I know. It's just the idea that Rei "was created with the purpose solely of being an Eva's pilot" doesn't really take into account Gendou's desire to see Yui again, and the reason why Rei is a clone of Yui and has Lilith's soul. So my bootstrapped theory is that the creation of a "person" called Rei was solely to pilot Evas, whereas the actions that lead up to the ability to "birth" Rei came about through the failed salvage attempt of Yui. After all, Gendou could have just flushed the "salvaged remains" down the toilet once he failed to get Yui back (though that would be pretty funny from a Lilith's soul perspective, seeing an Angel swimming through sewerage looking for her ).

Anyway I think I have rambled enough. Thoughts and comments?

Originally posted on: 04-Dec-2004, 16:39 GMT

[Shin-seiki [ANF]]

This seems to get back to the issue that we've batted around in various threads, of how many of the plot threads of NGE evolved as the series was written; it is interesting that Anno, as quoted above, admits one 'secret' plot point (that Rei is a clone), but doesn't refer to what, by the very end of the series, is plainly the real reason for her existence (as a means to enable Gendo to re-unite with Yui)

Originally posted on: 04-Dec-2004, 17:14 GMT

[MDWigs [ANF]]

I just want to point out that the interview was published in November 1996, so those comments were made pre-D&R and pre-EOE. Of course the scripts for those should have already been written by this point, however we don't know for sure how much was decided upon and how much subsequently changed.

Originally posted on: 04-Dec-2004, 18:28 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

I just want to point out that the interview was published in November 1996, so those comments were made pre-D&R and pre-EOE. Of course the scripts for those should have already been written by this point, however we don't know for sure how much was decided upon and how much subsequently changed.

None of this seems to make much sense, considering that Gendo tells Rei, in #25, that she has existed for the day when Instrumentality is initiated. Not to mention all of the fears Rei expresses of no longer being needed by Gendo. If she was "born to be an Eva pilot", she pretty much exhausted her usefulness back in #23.

Originally posted on: 05-Dec-2004, 08:31 GMT

[thewayneiac [ANF]]

I just thought it would be interesting to see what some of our newer members make of all this, so I'm bumping it despite my momentary confusion over true = "the conditions have been met" vs true = "the premsie itself is valid". Yes, Knives fled the field, a glorious victory for the rest of us. This also seems to have been continued from a conversation in another thread.

Edit: the confusion noted above occured in post # 87: Knives was correct in saying that his premise needed to be false (i.e. its conditions not met) to prove his point. I momentarily thought he was saying his whole premise needed to be invalid. As i said I was a little rusty. I clarified this in post #94 (though I still couldn't come up with the word "valid" at that time). His premise needs to be valid but its conditions false. My point was that it was invalid with its conditions true.

Originally posted on: 10-Sep-2005, 21:55 GMT

[Treize X [ANF]]

I just thought it would be interesting to see what some of our newer members make of all this, so I'm bumping it despite my momentary confusion over true = "the conditions have been met" vs true = "the premsie itself is valid". Yes, Knives fled the field, a glorious victory for the rest of us. This also seems to have been continued from a conversation in another thread.

Interesting. Amazing what treasures I missed when I was off on leave...

Originally posted on: 10-Sep-2005, 22:08 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

I'll update the image links if somebody licks my boots.

Originally posted on: 11-Sep-2005, 01:20 GMT

[Vicil [ANF]]

Brazil has decided that you're cute.
Sony has decided to delay the release of Advent Children.
Japan has decided not to include english subtitles in their DVDs to dicourage importers.
And after reading this thread, I have decided it's impossible to prove anything Anno doesn't tell you without knowing the location of someone you want to punch.

*Stabs self in eye*

Originally posted on: 12-Sep-2005, 11:02 GMT

[PronsAmuro [ANF]]

Japan has decided not to include english subtitles in their DVDs to dicourage importers.

Everyone in Japan just called and they had this to say:

XD!!!!

Score:
Japan: XD!!!!
Anime fnas: 0.

Originally posted on: 12-Sep-2005, 11:14 GMT

[OMF [ANF]]

It's an interesting thread, if for no other reason than the sheer amount of Rei material brought up. A few thoughts on the discussion cam e to me while reading the thread and I might as well regurgitate them here. Lord of the Rings spoilers abound, so people who've seen the film and haven't read all the books beware.

What came to be as I was thinking about this was the nature of the Wizards in The Lord of the Rings. You see (spoilers abound turn back now!) Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast et al, were in fact of the Maiar, a pantheon of lesser gods, who were given mortal form to rally Middle Earth against Sauron. Here's the relevant passage.

It was resolved to send out three emissaries to Middle-earth. 'Who would go? For they must be mighty, peers of Sauron, but must forgo might, and clothe themselves in flesh so as to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men. But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge, and confusing them with fears, cares, and weariness coming from the flesh.' But two only came forward: Curumo, who was chosen by Aulë, and Alatar, who was sent by Oromë. Then Manwë asked, where was Olórin? And Olórin... asked what Manwë would have of him. Manwë replied that he wished Olórin to go as the third messenger to Middle-earth... But Olórin replied that he was too weak for such a task, and that he feared Sauron. Then Manwë said that was all the more reason why he should go...

Olórin was Gandalf, Curumo was Saruman and Aiwendil was Radagast as it turns out. The key point here is the highlighted parts. By becoming flesh, these lesser, though still mighty, spirits were beset by the weaknesses of the flesh. They gave up a good portion of their wisdom and powers to become the Wizards. Fans of the book and the films will recall that Gandalf becomes weary, confused and even forgets things!

This incarnation of these Maiar into mortal forms is also similar to the incarnation of some of the traitor Maiar into the Balrogs, in the sense that these Maiar, though incredibly powerful as Balrogs, could now be "killed", and were of course trapped like the Wizards in their eartly forms. But I digress.


The point I wanted to make was that perhaps we can view Rei as being somewhat like the Wizards in the Lord of the Rings. She was Lilith, a powerful being, whose spirit has now been imbued into human form. While Lilith is still powerful, being clothed in (lesser) flesh may well have dimmed her wisdom and knowladge, as well as besetting her with mortal hungers and fears. But also mortal compassion and empathy perhaps.

And like Gandalf, perhaps Rei has also forgotten things. She is not fully aware of exactly who and what she really is and indeed what her purpose is. She has vauge impressions, but cannot recall everything.

In the book, there are at least five Wizards, the Istari, who were sent to Middle Earth, but only one, Gandalf, stayed true to his cause. The rest were strayed in some way or the other. Saruman by lust for power and Radagast by his love of nature. In their travels, each met and formed opinions of the mortals whom they met. Sauruman gradually came to detest mortals, Radagast grew more and more distant from them, preferring animals and plants instead. Gandalf grew more compassionate towards them, and kept fighting for them until the end.

Perhaps we can view Lilth's sojourn with mortals, in her form as Rei, as being like the stay of the Istari on Middle Earth. She lived as a mortal amoung mortals, and perhaps like Gandalf gained compassion for them. This might be why she decided to give humanity a chance, by giving the choice to Shinji.

Anyway, I though it might be an interesting parallel to mull over.

Originally posted on: 13-Sep-2005, 01:55 GMT

[K2Grey [ANF]]

This is an interesting parallel, but I have to try to ruin it by pointing out that I'm sure all 5 Istari had a general knowledge of humans to start with, before the Third Age (or at the very least Olorin did, maybe the others had some ego). In addition, the Istari-to-be all had decent relationships with others, while Lilith was alone. This is still, as said before, a parallel worth thinking about, though.

Personally, I don't think Lilith, by default, can be said to really care about Instrumentality or not Instrumentality. We don't even know if she intentionally created humans, if humans were created as a side effect from intentionally making the sea of LCL/life, or if she accidentally made the sea of LCL/life. For sure she's pretty apathetic, seeing how she just sits there while Seele makes tons of holes in her to get LCL and does contact experiments and grows an Eva-01 out of her and puts her soul in a friggin 5 year old girl ;0

Originally posted on: 13-Sep-2005, 05:26 GMT

[Jinpun [ANF]]

Wow a thread from when I posted here...seems like ages ago.

Whatever happened to Knives? He promised so many earth shattering revelations and then he just dissappeared?

Originally posted on: 13-Sep-2005, 06:00 GMT

[Soluzar [ANF]]

Perhaps we can view Lilth's sojourn with mortals, in her form as Rei, as being like the stay of the Istari on Middle Earth. She lived as a mortal amoung mortals, and perhaps like Gandalf gained compassion for them. This might be why she decided to give humanity a chance, by giving the choice to Shinji.

Anyway, I though it might be an interesting parallel to mull over.

For once, OMF, you've hit the nail right on the head. Try to make a habit of it, why don't you?

Seriously, though, although I can't say I spotted it myself, that paralel holds true as far as I can see. However, I only scanned it, and the devil is in the details.

Wow a thread from when I posted here...seems like ages ago.

It's a shame you don't post here anymore, really. The air in this place seems to get stale with only so few regulars left. I'm only a semi-regular now, but I will spring back mightily into action at some point soon.

Probably when Shin-Seiki posts one of those "little surprises" he has suggested that he may have in store for us. :p

Whatever happened to Knives? He promised so many earth shattering revelations and then he just dissappeared?

My own best guess is that he saw the flaws in his own theory, and couldn't face posting here anymore, and having to admit that he was wrong. It takes a big man to eat crow.

I've often wondered if he posts under a different name, now. Still, he could be rather offensive and rude, and I don't miss that, even if he was interesting.

Originally posted on: 13-Sep-2005, 13:46 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

I'm sort of skeptical that Anno was making some kind of reference specifically to LotR. You probably weren't even suggesting that, but... It's no secret that Tolkien was a religious guy and that Anno & company drew many of NGE's concepts from Judaio-Christian tradition.

I'm now on the "Rei created in salvage operation" bandwagon, since I suppose there is nothing barring the first Rei from being comprised of normal matter (Yui's remnants) and Gendo's subsequent creations being made differently, once he realized how it would service him later. Once idea I've toyed with here and there is that Lilith, initially, left her body completely on purpose... After all, they couldn't force Yui to leave Shogouki, so -- barring the forceful extraction of Lilith's soul, which was not the intent of the salvage operation -- how could they inadvertently force Lilith to leave her body, unless she wanted to?

Originally posted on: 13-Sep-2005, 14:42 GMT

[Shin-seiki [ANF]]

I'm now on the "Rei created in salvage operation" bandwagon, since I suppose there is nothing barring the first Rei from being comprised of normal matter (Yui's remnants) and Gendo's subsequent creations being made differently, once he realized how it would service him later.

I dunno... In every case where someone's soul ends up in another vessel (Yui/Eva-01, Kyouko/Eva-02, Lilith/Rei II-III, Adam/Kaworu), the vessel is made of Angelic matter. There's little or nothing in the series to go on here, but I'm not especially pre-disposed to the notion that it is even possible to invest a soul artificially in an ordinary human body.

Once idea I've toyed with here and there is that Lilith, initially, left her body completely on purpose... After all, they couldn't force Yui to leave Shogouki, so -- barring the forceful extraction of Lilith's soul, which was not the intent of the salvage operation -- how could they inadvertently force Lilith to leave her body, unless she wanted to?

Hmm... again I'm a bit dubious; what would Lilith's motive be to allow this to happen? This turns on its head the feeling I've always had that puuting Lilith's soul into a human body (at least in size and form, if not in terms of constituent matter) was another indignity inflicted on her by her puny offspring, comparable to crucifying her and poking her with a giant fork, etc...

Originally posted on: 13-Sep-2005, 16:00 GMT