Soluzar wrote:Simple question for you: Is your main objection to the notion that Rei has the soul of Lileth the fact that this would require Lileth's soul to be in multiple places at once? I did already ask you this, but I dare say it got lost in the overall noise, so I ask you again, now.
Thank you for asking for clarification.
No, my main objection to the notion that Rei contains Lilith's soul is not held solely in that it would require Lilith's soul to be in multiple places at once.
I agree — if Lilith's soul is indeed in Rei, then it would have to be the case that a soul in multiple places at once must necessarily be possible.
But I disagree with the conclusion that Lilith's soul is in Rei (this was the [3r] premise/conclusion that Jinpun and I were discussing).
Essentially, I disagree with this "[3r]" which supports the idea that Rei contains Lilith's soul ([3r] has been heavily defended in Reichu's Post #9 in this thread {I think that's the one}).
My main objection is with the conclusion that is made in the [3r] argument.
Here is a big concession on my part —
I will grant, that it is very easy to believe either one way or the other on this matter (once you see how I argue my case, you may or may not agree with me).
In other words, after presenting my case, I would not be surprised if few people agree with me (because if you disagree on any of the beginning premises, then the rest can [but not necessarily] fall apart — in which case we can fall back to the premises and discuss those, rather than argue about individual arguments [such as what was just done with the "Return Home" scenario]).
I can see the strong defenses in favor of Rei=Lilith (fundamentally, our arguments do not differ all that much in reality, as I hold it to be true that Rei has a unique connection to Lilith much like Jesus to God in Christian theology [who, essentially are the same person, but not ... sort of]).
What it may come down to is this:
I began my Defense of Rei under a particular premise — that premise being that Anno had a particular vision in mind.
I reason that if Rei has Lilith's soul, and not a unique one of her own, then Anno's particular vision is not being fulfilled (that is to say, it is contrary to what he was trying to get across to his audience).
So, in essence, the start of the argument looks like this:
(1) Anno intended to show the inherent value of the individual (that is to say, value is not derived from anything other than ourselves).
(2) If the conclusion that Rei contains Lilith's soul is true, then Rei herself is nothing but a container [as Ritsuko states].
[b](3) Being nothing but a container, Rei's only value is that of merely being tool for Gendo/SEELE.
(4) Therefore, if (2) and (3) are true, Rei has no inherent value.
(5) However, (4) is in direct conflict with (1) [in so far as it justifies Rei's use as merely a tool].
(6) Therefore, for Rei to have some inherent value [such that it complies with (1)], then (2) must necessarily be false.
(7) If (2) is necessarily false, then Rei must be unique [must have her own soul].
(8) If Rei is unique [has her own soul] then she has value, thereby adhering to premise (1).[/b]
Therefore, as you can see, there are many levels on which I acknowledge you may disagree with me. I accept that. But rather than attacking eachother and eachother's cases (which I too have been guilty of), I should hope we find where it is that we find disagreements and come to common ground (as Jinpun and I had done with the "Return Home" argument [we discussed back and forth until we finally understood and came to a level at which we both agreed, even if we still fundamentally disagreed on the issue]).
And again, the blue section is not the only defense — it is simply a starting point of sorts ... a summary of the main argument so to speak. Other things are included, some of which include a discussion on the matter of Rei's "inner" dialogues with herself and Rei I (which provide a different conclusion than that which Reichu has provided [the argument involves the Voice of Temptation ... a concept unique to my own thoughts which has yet to be presented here {so you may understand therefore why I do wish to make sure it makes sense before presenting it}]).
[[A note on the Voice of Temptation, since I know it's a completely foreign concept ... there is also what I call the Voice of Reason, present primarily in Ep. 25 and unique to the Cases of Misato and Shinji (that being the "Why did you kill him?!" and "Am I happy?" text ... {I don't think it appears for Asuka or Rei ... but I'd have to review that when I get my discs back})]] ... This all of course is something I'll explain when the time comes.
So ... in answer to your question again, no — the argument against "Welcome Home" is not the only argument I hold against the Rei=Lilith Conclusion.
My Defense of Rei is about as thorough as Reichu's How [She] Came to Know Rei (.. that was yours wasn't it?).
But I will grant that there are many grounds upon which we may find ourselves differing, and therefore huge spaces for discussion.
To suggest that my argument will clearly convince everyone that Rei does not contain Lilith's soul is absurd.
It would be like suggesting any one argument on either side of the abortion debate will convince the other that it is wrong.
I'm sorry for claiming that to be the case (as I believe I probably have done on at least a couple occassions).
I admit that it is open to (and I will welcome) discussion once it is prepared.
Originally posted on: 17-Nov-2004, 23:58 GMT
) But the conclusion I would draw from it would be more like: Instead of considering Rei to be a human with Lilith's soul, (most people's idea), or mearly a vessel for Lilith, (what Knives says she must be if indeed she has Lilith's soul), she should be considered to be Lilith embodied as a human. The trouble with my conclusion is I'm not sure if we can convince Knives that this would give her value as a unique individual. (Though I certainly think it would.) So perhaps we should go with your conclusion after all.