The Nature of Rei. Again.

[Shin-seiki [ANF]]

Well, I explained why. In general, connecting Rei to Yui in anything other than body has many flaws; see the body of evidence I produced earlier. They do make that strange connection between the two in #16, by having them both say "Sou. Yokatta wa ne", but I was never sure what that was supposed to mean.

I think it's just intended to add to the incipient Rei-Yui connection in the audience's mind that was planted in the previous episode with the "When you were wringing out the cloth, you reminded me of a mother..." bit. I don't think we need to go off the deep end by assuming that Rei was channeling Yui when she said "Sou. Yokatta wa ne"; it was just another hint that there is some sort of connection between the two of them.

Edit: and, of course, it also works as a hint that there is something fundamentally maternal about Rei's "true" identity...

Originally posted on: 16-Nov-2004, 15:43 GMT

[Soluzar [ANF]]

... I've said it before, and I say it again at the end of this post — but it would be helpful if people would wait until the Defense of Rei is clearly laid out, rather than have me answer scattered questions in regards to this issue [which as Wayne points out {and I later address} makes for a poor defense — one which is not being thrust forward by me, but by the never-ending questions {I may just soon ignore them ... which is still a catch-22 ... either I answer and seem to make no sense (a la Reichu's frustration of my comments) or I'm said to be unable to defend myself or my theory ... whatever}].

Well, if you insist upon stating your theory in your posts (which, of course, you have every right to do) you must expect that people will challenge that theory, whether your 'defense' is ready or not. I personally doubt that you can come up with anything that manages to counter-balance all of the apparent evidence for Rei possessing Lileth's soul.

If it is correct to suggest that your primary point of disagreement with the established theories regarding Rei and the soul of Lileth is that it requires her soul to be in two places at once, then I suggest that you examine the case of Kyoko. Unless I am much mistaken (and it is entirely possible that I am) her soul was in two places simultaneously for some time, as well.

Much of the debate being carried out here is, if not quite over my head, then getting close, but I do wonder as to why you have not addressed the matter of the quotes from #24' and #25 which were posted by Reichu on the first page of this thread. Could it be that you find that you cannot counteract these arguments, and so choose to ignore them instead?

The quotes that were provided do seem, when taken together with the additional quote provided by MDWigs, offer what is in my eyes, a fairly substantial case for the possession of Lileth's soul by Rei. It is my opinion that you must address those points, and soon, if you wish to retain any credibility with your theory. After all, it is hard to argue against what is directly stated in the show itself, is it not?

Originally posted on: 16-Nov-2004, 15:47 GMT

[thewayneiac [ANF]]

I pointed it out elsewhere, but using the principle of "Rei=Lilith" to explain why Lilith can have her soul and Rei can have Lilith's soul.
(1) If Rei is Lilith and Lilith is Lilith, how can this be?
(2) It must be because Lilith's soul can be in multiple places at once.
(3) Why do we know this? Refer to point (1).
[Although, I will point out, this particular matter is in regards to the "single soul, multiple locations" theory — which relies on either the assumption or conclusion that Rei and Lilith must necessarily be one in the same]

As I said, you are setting up a straw man here; that is not at all how we make our case. The actual process was more like:

1. We examined all the evidence: the multiple associations of Rei with the moon, "You're like me", "I'm home", "welcome home", the explicit statement in the theatrical program, ect., and came to the conclusion that Rei's soul was that of Lilith.

2. Then we concluded that this must explain her soul's ability to be in more than one place at once, (First demonstrated in Ep. 14) and her personal ability to be in more than one place at once, (first demonstrated in ep. 1).

Rei III, after she gains god-like powers. Different, therefore from Rei III. And no. I didn't say "temporarily," did I? I believe I said "transcend time and space" making her essentially "eternal" though even that's not the right word for it (it's beyond "eternal" ... it's existing outside the bounds of time and space).

Ok, thanks for the clarification; when you said she had trancended time, "at that moment", I thought you might be deliberately restricting the duration of her powers. There is a suprising number of people who don't realize that Rei is still around at the end of the story, even though they show her. Because they can't explain her, or don't particularly like the explanation, they just declare her appearances at the beginning and ending of the story to be meaningless. Talk about circular arguements, these people say that she only shows up at the end because she shows up at the beginning, and only shows up at the beginning because she shows up at the end. If you ever get into a debate with any of them, prepare to be exasperated.

I prefer to take what happened in series and movie as canon, not a pamphlet saying "Look guys, you probably won't be able to figure it out while you watch the movie, Rei's soul is of Lilith".

Yes, I agree that the anime itself takes precedence over any supplimental sources in any case where they contradict each other. However, since in this case the theatrical program supports the evidence presented in the anime that Rei=Lilith, there is no reason to discount it.

While we're on the subject, this might be a good place to re-post Shin-seiki's order of canonicity.:

The hierarchy of canonicity goes something like this:
1: What is said and shown in the series/movies. The New Production Cut and EoE are the "final" version, and thus supercede the broadcast version in canonicity, in any theoretical divergence between the two.
2: The words of Anno himself, and of other senior members of the NGE team at GAINAX.
3: Supplemental published sources officially sanctioned by GAINAX, such as the RCB, the various Newtype filmbooks, and the Cardass Masters card game, etc.
4: The manga by Sadamoto. The manga is basically canon only with reference to itself, but may be referenced in those areas where it offers more detailed info on subjects that the series is vague about, such as the background of SEELE, as long as it doesn't actually contradict the facts as presented in the series.
5: Least reliable is the stuff that ADV (or VIZ, for that matter) came up with that they put on the packaging and other promotional materials.

This just about sums up my feelings on the subject as well.

This is faulty, because it would suggest then that Shinji's soul is that of Misato. Given that this isn't the case, this particular defense is bunk.

Once again the straw man strategy; our agruement suggests no such thing. We are saying that Shinji had come home to where he belongs, and so had Rei.

Originally posted on: 16-Nov-2004, 19:34 GMT

[Mr. Tines [ANF]]

Let me point out that I'm not actively proposing - let alone seriously defending either "E" or "F" - rather listing prior models of mine, primarily for completeness. They are idle speculations of the sort that I would find their ramifications aesthetically pleasing were they the case - and also play to two different pre-existing mind-sets of mine - and nothing more.

Originally posted on: 16-Nov-2004, 19:49 GMT

[Shin-seiki [ANF]]

Once again the straw man strategy; our agruement suggests no such thing. We are saying that Shinji had come home to where he belongs, and so had Rei.

I would like to re-enforce that point, Knives: almost without exception your formulation of the other side's arguments have been absurd charactiture's of what we have actually said. It doesn't carry much probative value for you to demolish "straw men" that bear almost no resemblance to what anyone here is actually saying. This is a cheap, unworthy, rhetorical trick (much favored by Fuzzy Chickens, I might add), and as long as you continue to resort to it, you can expect us to pretty much just tune you out...

Originally posted on: 17-Nov-2004, 08:41 GMT

[Knives [ANF]]

As I said, you are setting up a straw man here; that is not at all how we make our case. The actual process was more like:

1. We examined all the evidence: the multiple associations of Rei with the moon, "You're like me", "I'm home", "welcome home", the explicit statement in the theatrical program, ect., and came to the conclusion that Rei's soul was that of Lilith.

2. Then we concluded that this must explain her soul's ability to be in more than one place at once, (First demonstrated in Ep. 14) and her personal ability to be in more than one place at once, (first demonstrated in ep. 1).

You see, I understand both (1) and (2).
I understand how you've made your case.
But (2) is only necessary if (1) is true.
My argument (when complete) will defend my theory and show how and why I disagree with the conclusion that has been drawn in (1).

I agree that "the multiple associations of Rei with the moon, "You're like me", "I'm home", "welcome home", sans the Theatrical Program (which as you've said is only useful if it supports what we know as fact), only shows a unique connection between Rei and Lilith. In and of itself, it doesn't prove that they are one.
Again ... I understand the discussion and time that's been placed into the matter, I simply disagree with the conclusion and will explain how I disagree once the Defense is written.

Once again the straw man strategy; our agruement suggests no such thing. We are saying that Shinji had come home to where he belongs, and so had Rei.

Allow me to extrapolate:

[1s] Shinji says I'm home.
[2s] Misato welcomes him.
[Conclusion-s] Therefore, Shinji has come home to where he belongs.

[1r] Rei says I'm home.
[2r] Lilith welcomes her.
[Conclusion-r] Therefore, Rei has come home to where she belongs.

Somewhere in there (I don't know where), you've come to [Conclusion-r'] "Rei has Lilith's soul" ... so your argument looks then, like this:

[1r] {same}
[2r] {same}
[Conclusion-r] Therefore, Rei has come home to where she belongs.
[Conclusion-r'] Therefore, Rei holds Lilith's soul.

If you use [1s], [2s] and [Conclusion-s] as your defense of Rei and Lilith's interaction, then [Conclusion-r'] is unjustifiable.
It's only justifiable if you have some [Conclusion-s'] which states that Shinji and Misato's souls are one.
Without [Conclusion-s'], all one may justifiably argue here is that Rei has returned to the home where she belongs.
You have no such conclusion, therefore [Conclusion-r'] is undefendable via this particular argument.

------------------------------------------------

Much of the debate being carried out here is, if not quite over my head, then getting close, but I do wonder as to why you have not addressed the matter of the quotes from #24' and #25 which were posted by Reichu on the first page of this thread. Could it be that you find that you cannot counteract these arguments, and so choose to ignore them instead?

I'm sorry .. but this is too funny. Let me answer your question with the exact quote you're responding to (rather than repeating myself [this is so ironic — I must be a Prophet].

... I've said it before, and I say it again at the end of this post — but it would be helpful if people would wait until the Defense of Rei is clearly laid out, rather than have me answer scattered questions in regards to this issue [which as Wayne points out {and I later address} makes for a poor defense — one which is not being thrust forward by me, but by the never-ending questions [b]{I may just soon ignore them ... which is still a catch-22 ... either I answer and seem to make no sense (a la Reichu's frustration of my comments) or I'm said to be unable to defend myself or my theory ... whatever}].

And now I'm off to class

>EDIT
Psst, it's color coordinated ... so you can read the green in one quote and see the answer in the other quote. Same for the blue. If you read it in that fashion, you'll see why I find it so amusing.
>End EDIT

Originally posted on: 17-Nov-2004, 08:57 GMT

[Knives [ANF]]

I would like to re-enforce that point, Knives: almost without exception your formulation of the other side's arguments have been absurd charactiture's of what we have actually said. It doesn't carry much probative value for you to demolish "straw men" that bear almost no resemblance to what anyone here is actually saying. This is a cheap, unworthy, rhetorical trick (much favored by Fuzzy Chickens, I might add), and as long as you continue to resort to it, you can expect us to pretty much just tune you out...

See extrapolation of argument under discussion and you will see that it holds no fallacy as you claim it does.
If there be an error in the extrapolation, point to it, and I'll address it when I return.

Originally posted on: 16-Nov-2004, 21:02 GMT

[Soluzar [ANF]]

I'm sorry .. but this is too funny. Let me answer your question with the exact quote you're responding to (rather than repeating myself [this is so ironic — I must be a Prophet].

And now I'm off to class

>EDIT
Psst, it's color coordinated ... so you can read the green in one quote and see the answer in the other quote. Same for the blue. If you read it in that fashion, you'll see why I find it so amusing.
[b]>End EDIT

I'm glad you find my questions so funny. I'm starting to find your posts quite entertaining, myself. Until and unless you produce that famous (and most likely non-existant) defence, I refuse to believe that you have anything to produce. Put up, or shut up, Knives. That's what it has come down to. Either produce your defence, or stop sneering at the popular theory.

You can't just dodge this by pretending that you have some huge secret that only you know. We've all seen the series. We all saw the same scenes, heard the same dialogue, and you are starting to become rather tiresome with your continual insistance that you have a big secret theory about Rei.

Well, for my part, if you do choose to ignore the questions directed at you, I will choose to believe that, as you predicted, your theory is not defensible. In the mean time, if you are not prepared to provide details about your theory, I don't think that you should criticise the prevalent one. It's not polite, in my humble opinion, for which you did not ask.

Enjoy your laughter while it lasts, Knives. I'll be waiting to get the last laugh when your own theory is discredited.

Originally posted on: 16-Nov-2004, 21:21 GMT

[Jinpun [ANF]]

Allow me to extrapolate:

[1s] Shinji says I'm home.
[2s] Misato welcomes him.
[Conclusion-s] Therefore, Shinji has come home to where he belongs.

[1r] Rei says I'm home.
[2r] Lilith welcomes her.
[Conclusion-r] Therefore, Rei has come home to where she belongs.

Somewhere in there (I don't know where), you've come to [Conclusion-r'] "Rei has Lilith's soul" ... so your argument looks then, like this:

[1r] {same}
[2r] {same}
[Conclusion-r] Therefore, Rei has come home to where she belongs.
[Conclusion-r'] Therefore, Rei holds Lilith's soul.

If you use [1s], [2s] and [Conclusion-s] as your defense of Rei and Lilith's interaction, then [Conclusion-r'] is unjustifiable.
It's only justifiable if you have some [Conclusion-s'] which states that Shinji and Misato's souls are one.
Without [Conclusion-s'], all one may justifiably argue here is that Rei has returned to the home where she belongs.
You have no such conclusion, therefore [Conclusion-r'] is undefendable via this particular argument.

But you are missing things between [Conclusion-r and r']. The argument is not saying that only because Rei has come home to where she belongs, that she holds Lilith's soul. It [Conclusion r] just helps support r'. There is much other evidence which has been supported to demonstrate the connection between [Conclusion-r] and [Conclusion-r'].

This is why we do not suppose that Shinji and Misato's soul are one (outside of the fact that those quotes "Tadaimai" and and "Okaerinasai" are being taken out of context. Shinji is returning to Misato's home, not Misato. Whereas Rei is returning to Lilith.). There is no evidence to support Shinji and Misato's soul as being one, which is why the connection betwwen [Conclusion-s] and [Conclusion-s'] is not made. Please review the thread for the evidence relating [Conclusion-r] and [Conclusion-r'].

Originally posted on: 16-Nov-2004, 22:06 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

Let's turn down the testosterone a little, boys. I too have expressed my skepticism about Knives' big secret, but at least give him a chance to present his argument "properly" as he seems to be indicating he will eventually do... But, then, I do agree that since Knives is making all of us wait, he should be doing less to instigate the "rabid dog straining on end of chain" reaction in us.

Remember, even the best of us have "teased" the others about having some ground-breaking (or potentially, anyway) sort of idea that we needed time to throw together. Shin-seiki is obviously very guilty of this , and then Wayne and I become guilty by knowing some of Shin's ideas and not being allowed to say anything... But, then, Shin is someone most of us know and trust, so I guess it's sort of different.

I'll also agree that a lot of what you are saying, Knives, is eerily reminiscent of Fuzzy Chickens, who JUST BARELY managed not to get banned back in his prime. I would tread a little more lightly; we've got a great bunch of people here, and it's no fun when things get unpleasant.

EDIT: :waves: at Jinpun. Crap, I forgot to PM you back, didn't I? ir teh lam0rz!!!1

Originally posted on: 16-Nov-2004, 22:10 GMT

[Knives [ANF]]

But you are missing things between [Conclusion-r and r'].[/b] The argument is not saying that only because Rei has come home to where she belongs, that she holds Lilith's soul. It [Conclusion r] just helps support r'.].

Ok ... Jinpun's on track with me here. This is good .

Jinpun: I'm not missing the things between [Conclusion-r] and [r'].
I'm pointing to the fact that there are or at least have to be some premises between [C-r] and [C-r'] in order to make it valid.

Because these premises are inserted from elsewhere (and not present in the [1s], [2s] and [C-s]), using [1s], [2s] and [C-s] as evidence that Rei has Lilith's soul is not a valid jump.

There is much other evidence which has been supported to demonstrate the connection between [Conclusion-r] and [Conclusion-r'].

Precisely — my point was in revealing the flaw in comparing "Shinji<-->Misato" conversation to the "Rei<-->Lilith" conversation as evidence that Rei has Lilith's soul.

In and of itself, it is not a valid argument. It requires some [3r] point/premise/conclusion in order to make the leap from [C-r] to [C-r'].

It's only evidence in so far as if one of two things is true
(A) [3r] states returning to where one belongs means that he has the soul of the owner of that space {Shinji holds Misato's soul, Rei holds Lilith's soul}
[And we know (A) not to be the case]

(B) [3r] is a conclusion that Rei holds Lilith's soul (based on evidence not essential to the comparison at hand)
[And if (B) is the case, then making the comparison between "Shinji's return" and "Rei's return" offers no real support to the argument, other than to demonstrate [3r] which is already a conclusion]

Therefore, if you hold by this "Return Home" argument by itself as evidence (which Wayne said in and of itself was good enough for him), you're holding to a fallacy.

This is why I addressed it.
Because it was being used as evidence of their connection, when in reality, if you hold [3r] (currently undefined premise) to be true, then this "Return Home" argument only serves as a demonstration, and not as a defense.

And clearly, you agree that in and of itself, it is not a valid defense — unless other premises are taken in conjuncture with it.
You, yourself said I'm "missing things" between the [C-r] and [C-r'].
The fact is, I'm not missing them — I'm pointing to their absence (and no, I'm not saying [3r] doesn't exist — I am saying [3r] is the issue to be discussed and not this "Return Home" "defense").

Please review the thread for the evidence relating [Conclusion-r] and [Conclusion-r'].

And again ... I agree with you.
This is the point I was making.
The evidence relating to the jump from [C-r] to [C-r'] is some other premise (or premises contained within) [3r].
So using Shinji's dialogue with Misato as evidence in and of itself as evidence for Rei containing Lilith's soul is fallacy, plain and simple.

I'll also agree that a lot of what you are saying, Knives, is eerily reminiscent of Fuzzy Chickens, who JUST BARELY managed not to get banned back in his prime. I would tread a little more lightly; we've got a great bunch of people here, and it's no fun when things get unpleasant.

Are you suggesting that by putting forth a logical and systematic refutation of a commonly mis-used defense for a popular theory is grounds for banning, Reichu ?

I don't know how this Fuzzy Chickens scenario played out — but you're telling me to tread lightly.
A defense was thrown at me. I refuted it, clearly enough that at least one person (Jinpun namely — although we still disagree on the main issue) seems to understand it (so I know it makes sense therefore not only to me).

Furthermore, I have not been unpleasant (or at least, I have not perceived myself to be unpleasant).

If, again, arguing logically against an argument popularly held is "unpleasant" then wouldn't you be suggesting that people shouldn't question anything or discuss these matters?
And further still ... why am I the one being threatened with banning when others are the ones allowing their "testosterone" (to use your words) get out of hand?

All I can say is I'm thoroughly confused as to why you place the blame for this "unpleasantness" on me, merely for the fact that I disagree with a particular view.

I have not claimed anyone to be stupid for holding their opinion, or blind to the facts (as others have done to some people when it comes to holding the view which I hold).

I have attempted (and been for the most part [and when and if I haven't have proceeded to apologize when I was in the wrong]) to be pleasant and civil.

Please explain this to me — because I do not understand.

>EDIT
I would just like to emphasize that I intend no ill will, nor hold any.
>End EDIT

Originally posted on: 17-Nov-2004, 02:07 GMT

[Jinpun [ANF]]

Oh, I understand now why you were saying this atleast. I didn't know the ultimate point of talking about the relation between Shinji's "Tadaimai" and "Okaerinasai" and Rei's.

So you are saying here that [3r] must be either A or B?

In and of itself, it is not a valid argument. It requires some [3r] point/premise/conclusion in order to make the leap from [C-r] to [C-r'].

It's only evidence in so far as if one of two things is true
(A) [3r] states returning to where one belongs means that he has the soul of the owner of that space {Shinji holds Misato's soul, Rei holds Lilith's soul}
[And we know (A) not to be the case]

(B) [3r] is a conclusion that Rei holds Lilith's soul (based on evidence not essential to the comparison at hand)
[And if (B) is the case, then making the comparison between "Shinji's return" and "Rei's return" offers no real support to the argument, other than to demonstrate [3r] which is already a conclusion

If so, A is taken completely out of context. "Returning to where one belongs" may mean that "he has the soul of the owner of space" for Rei. Not Shinji, you cannot take the "Tadaimai" and "Okaerinasai" that Shinji says and Rei says as being the same. No one is arguing that, which is what I think you are trying to say, that the Shinji's Tadaimai" and "Okaerinasai" cannot be used as evidence for Rei's. Everyone one is saying (when they relate Shinji's Tadaimai" and "Okaerinasai" with Reis) is that since the terms "Tadaimai" and "Okaerinasai" are used to show that one is where they belong, that Rei must be where she belongs, with respect to Lilith.

Saying:

The evidence relating to the jump from [C-r] to [C-r'] is some other premise (or premises contained within) [3r].
So using Shinji's dialogue with Misato as evidence in and of itself as evidence for Rei containing Lilith's soul is fallacy, plain and simple.

does not follow. Are you saying that since there is no [3r] for the case of Shinji and Misato, that it cannot be used as evidence for simply relating the two (Shinji's and Rei's Tadaimai" and "Okaerinasai," that is)?

Originally posted on: 17-Nov-2004, 02:43 GMT

[Knives [ANF]]

if you are not prepared to provide details about your theory, I don't think that you should criticise the prevalent one. It's not polite

I felt the need to address this one line.

All this does is provide incentive for people not to speak up.

For instance, let's say Magami, Shin-seiki, Mr. Tines and myself all go out for icecream.

Now, before leaving, Reichu tells us not to get her chocolate, but everyone's already out the door and only I hear her.

Now when we get to the icecream parlor, the other three suggest getting chocolate for Reichu and they base it on evidence that they know she likes chocolate cake, chocolate candies and other such evidence.

At this time, I may say, "No. I know she doesn't want chocolate, and here's why—" and then proceed to inform them of what it was they missed/overlooked.

They may proceed to ask me what she does in fact want.

While it may be the case that I don't know the answer, I do know for a fact what the answer isn't, and why it isn't.

Simply because I don't know the answer (or don't seem to know the answer) doesn't mean I can't point out what I know to be wrong (assuming that I at least support it with reasons for why it is wrong [which in the case of the "Return Home" argument, I have done]).

If there are problems with the reasons why, address those and do not hinder the sharing of ideas by claiming that one cannot speak up when they find a flaw unless it is the case that he/she knows the answer.

---------------------------------------

As to the issue of why you feel it is "not polite." I'm sorry if it came across that way. But my intention has never been to stir up animosity or anger.
All I have done is pointed to where I find flaws in what is presented to me as evidence.
What is returned is not discussion into those matters, but accusations that I'm intending to be unpleasant or cause problems.
This is not the case at all. I — like you more than likely — am only seeking to clarify.

I have a feeling (and I may be completely unjustified in this feeling) that people are getting upset because I am pointing out stains/wounds/holes in people's perceptions that would otherwise have been ignored — and for that, I'm recieving anger and "unpleasantness" and at the same time being accused of being the cause for said emotions.

Again, I may be unjustified in that ... but it is the feeling I get nonetheless.

Originally posted on: 17-Nov-2004, 02:55 GMT

[Knives [ANF]]

Saying:
Quote: Originally Posted by Knives The evidence relating to the jump from [C-r] to [C-r'] is some other premise (or premises contained within) [3r].
So using Shinji's dialogue with Misato as evidence in and of itself as evidence for Rei containing Lilith's soul is fallacy, plain and simple.

does not follow. Are you saying that since there is no [3r] for the case of Shinji and Misato, that it cannot be used as evidence for simply relating the two?[/COLOR]

Jinpun ... Can I tell you just how thankful I am for you right now?
I am so thankful you are willing to discuss this in a logical manner, without getting angry, annoyed or accusatory.
Thank you, thank you, thank you.

And in answer to your question:
No, I'm not saying that since there is no [3r] that the case of "Shinji and Misato" cannot be used as evidence for relating "Rei and Lilith".
I believe that the case comparison shows a unique connection between Rei and Lilith.

What I am saying, is that in and of itself [C-r] (that is, the conclusion that Rei belongs with Lilith which is supported by the conversation between Shinji and Misato), cannot be used as evidence that Rei must therefore/necessarily contain Lilith's soul.

Is it clear .. or do I need to say it another way? (<-- I'm genuinely concerned about clarity because you seem to think on the particular plain that I do).

Summary:

(1) I am saying "Return Home" conversations prove a direct and unique connection between Rei and Lilith.

(2) I am saying one cannot use the "Return Home" conversations as evidence, in and of themselves, that Rei must necessarily contain Lilith's soul.

(3) To put it another way: In conjuncture with [3r], the "Return Home" conversations merely serve as a demonstration of [3r], but are not in and of themselves proof of [3r].

Originally posted on: 17-Nov-2004, 03:04 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

I agree that taking the Rei-Lilith "Tadaima"/"Okaerinasai" exchange as the only proof one needs for the Rei-Lilith connection is flawed. Without straying into your strange and foreign world of logic and pseudomathematic formulas* (my brain simply doesn't process such things), I posited earlier that, logically, any Lilim returning to Lilith would be, in a sense, "returning home", because Lilith is their progenitor.

Lingering on this one issue, however, and making the IMO outrageous Shinji-Misato parallel is to miss the point that we come to certain conclusions by taking certain clues TOGETHER, make an interpretation of their compounded meaning, as opposed to dissecting them into shards which are refuted piece by piece.

Being in disagreement is perfectly fine. However, you seem to be of such conviction that you are being 'incriminated' simply for being a "heretic" that you are losing sight of how you actually present yourself and your views. You are inconsistently unpleasant; there is sometimes a very mocking tone to your 'voice'. (Not that we are always any better.) It is entirely possible to disagree with someone without pissing them off. RahOtaku was not banned for being a "heretic"; he was banned for being an Arshloch.

* Honestly, I do get the impression that you are using this crap merely to 'intimidate the opposition'. If we can't argue on "your level" of convoluted profundity, then we can't make make what you consider a "good defense". Not very fair, in my opinion... But, hey, that's my problem and not yours, right? _

Originally posted on: 17-Nov-2004, 03:12 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

Oh yeah, and Knives -- when are you going to just shut up and churn out your proofs? I think you actually ENJOY this fragmented debate that isn't going anywhere fast.

Originally posted on: 17-Nov-2004, 03:15 GMT

[Jinpun [ANF]]

(2) I am saying one cannot use the "Return Home" conversations as evidence, in and of themselves, that Rei must necessarily contain Lilith's soul.

I agree with this, but I was never under the impression that anyone was saying that. Instead, the argument went more like:

1. When Rei reaches Lilith she says "Tadaimai" and Lilith says "Okaerinasai"

2. To quote MDWIGS, "Those two lines are a traditional Japanese welcoming and they are only used in certain circumstances, specifically, as Shin-seiki noted, when somebody is returning home to where they belong/came from. karerimasu (to return) is very different in Japanese to ikimasu (to go). Here Rei specifically says "Tadaima", which literally means "I have returned just now" and Lilith specifically says "Okaeri nasai", "Welcome home", to her. The literal meaning aside though, it is the traditional use that is important. We see this greeting used in episode 02, when Shinji comes to Misato's apartment."

3. See the terms "Tadaima" and "Okaeri nasai" are used by Shinji and Misato as well. Misato is telling Shinji that he belongs here. Why does Misato say that? Because Misato volunteered to take Shinji in. Why does Shinji belong there? Because he now lives with Misato, he is not a guest, it is his home as well. How did we conclude that? By using [3r], from the context of the seen and what we know about the events leading up to that point to determine that thats what she meant.

Lilith must also be saying that Rei belongs here (since after all she did say, "Tadaima" and "Okaeri nasai"). Why would Lilith say that? Because Rei is where she belongs. Why would Rei belong there? Because she has Lilith's soul. How can we conclude that? *Here is where we use [3r] to reach the conclusion that Rei has Lilith's soul.*

NOTE- Just to make sure there is no confusion, I am saying that [3r] is the evidence to prove that Rei has Liliths soul. Evidence such as that shown in post #9 (Reichus).

See how the Shinji/Misato "Tadaima" and "Okaeri nasai" are not used to prove the argument, only parallel it?

Originally posted on: 17-Nov-2004, 03:23 GMT

[Knives [ANF]]

*snip my own section*
Jinpun's clear on what I'm saying.
So there's no need for what was I said in this section.


-------------------------------------------------

you are losing sight of how you actually present yourself and your views. You are inconsistently unpleasant;
there is sometimes a very mocking tone to your 'voice'.

I concede that there was a "mocking" tone in response to Soluzar when I said his question made me laugh. But even you must admit it is funny that he would do exactly as I said someone would. You said yourself that you'd say something in my defense should that happen (which, to your credit, you did).

It is entirely possible to disagree with someone without pissing them off.

Wouldn't you agree, however, that if you were to disagree with me and show me where my convictions were wrong, that no matter how nicely you put it, I might be pissed off anyway?
I haven't been rude or mean in my disagreements.
I have supported my disagreements.
If someone is angry, they're angry by the fact they don't like that my disagreements have support. So rather than calmly address the support, they get angry and then I get blamed for their anger.
This is hardly fair.
[Again, this is my perception of the situation based on history — if I am wrong and unjustified in this feeling, then I apologize]

* Honestly, I do get the impression that you are using this crap merely to 'intimidate the opposition'. If we can't argue on "your level" of convoluted profundity, then we can't make make what you consider a "good defense". Not very fair, in my opinion... But, hey, that's my problem and not yours, right? _

I'm sorry.
It is not my intention that you'd feel intimidated.
Couldn't we say the same thing for Mr. Tines and his big words, though? I don't hear anyone accusing him of that.
Ok ... ^^^ that was a little mocking. I apologize for it as well.


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What I want to get across to you and others is that I am not using these forms of arguments as means of intimidation (in fact, much of episode 25 and 26 is presented in this fashion when talking about the self when you break it down).

Furthermore:
I want to make it clear that if you don't understand what I'm trying to say, please point out where that is and then ask for clarification (as Jinpun has [again, thank God for him]).
I am always open to clarifying what it is I have to say.

Secondly:
If you find that you disagree with what I have to say, once you come to understand it, rather than get angry, point to where and how you disagree and we can discuss it.

I don't know how I can be any more open to other views/criticism and more polite than this.

Originally posted on: 17-Nov-2004, 04:13 GMT

[Knives [ANF]]

OK, I understand what you are trying to say now.
I agree with this, but I was never under the impression that anyone was saying that.

Wayne was saying something to that degree:

Even if you succeed in refuting one or two clues, the evidence is still vastly in favor of Rei=Lilith. (For my money, "I'm home." Welcome home.", clinches it.)

*emphasis added*

3. See the terms "Tadaima" and "Okaeri nasai" are used by Shinji and Misato as well. Misato is telling Shinji that he belongs here. Why does Misato say that? Because Misato volunteered to take Shinji in. Why does Shinji belong there? Because he now lives with Misato, he is not a guest, it is his home as well. How did we conclude that? By using [3r], from the context of the seen and what we know about the events leading up to that point to determine that thats what she meant.

Lilith must also be saying that Rei belongs here (since after all she did say, "Tadaima" and "Okaeri nasai"). Why would Lilith say that? Because Rei is where she belongs. Why would Rei belong there? Because she has Lilith's soul. How can we conclude that? *Here is where we use [3r] to reach the conclusion that Rei has Lilith's soul.*
NOTE- Just to make sure there is no confusion, I am saying that [3r] is the evidence to prove that Rei has Liliths soul. Evidence such as that shown in post #9 (Reichus).

Agreed. And this was my point — that the "Return Home" wasn't what should be addressed, but the [3r] which was used to reach [C-r'] (but of course [3r], as defended by Post #9 as you point out, will take time to address as it is a bundle of conclusions and premises).

See how the Shinji/Misato "Tadaima" and "Okaeri nasai" are not used to prove the argument, only parallel it?[/COLOR]

I agree — my point was simply that it merely parallels it. It doesn't stand as a defense of [C-r'] (not without [3r] of course, and even then, it's still only a parallel).

[b]>EDIT

Oh yeah, and Knives -- when are you going to just shut up and churn out your proofs?

As you wish, M'lady .
[b]>End EDIT

>2nd EDIT
Another way to look at it (mostly for Jinpun)
In order to derive [C-r'] from [C-r], one must hold [3r] to be true.
Without [3r], all one can derive is [C-r].
To derive [C-r'] from [1r], [2r], [3r] and [C-r] really only serves as an illustration of [3r], and not a defense of either [3r] nor [C-r'] (but I think we're in agreement on that — I'm just trying to make it clear to others).
>End 2nd EDIT

Originally posted on: 17-Nov-2004, 04:29 GMT

[Jinpun [ANF]]

Wayne was saying something to that degree:

*emphasis added*

I don't think that he was talking about Misato and Shinji. From reading his post I think he was srictly refering to Rei and Lilith, and for him, Rei saying "Tadaima" and Lilith saying, "Okaeri nasai" is enough proof for him to be able to make the conclusion that Rei has Liliths soul.

I agree — my point was simply that it merely parallels it. It doesn't stand as a defense of [C-r'] (not without [3r] of course, and even then, it's still only a parallel).

Alright, glad we are on the same page at last.

EDIT

Without [3r], all one can derive is [C-r].
To derive [C-r'] from [1r], [2r], [3r] and [C-r] really only serves as an illustration of [3r], and not a defense of either [3r] nor [C-r'] (but I think we're in agreement on that — I'm just trying to make it clear to others).

But the problem now is deciding what [3r] is. What is enough evidence for me, might not be enough for you. For me the "[3r]" provided in Reichu's post #9 is enough for me to make the connection. Seeing the Misato/Shinji parallelism helps in solidifying this assumption.



Originally posted on: 17-Nov-2004, 04:42 GMT