Reichu wrote:I personally suspect we all just need to be more patient and less hostile. We're talking about a friggin' cartoon, after all.
Finally!!!
Originally posted on: 15-Nov-2004, 23:07 GMT
Knives wrote:You do care
And it's because of this that I want to make sure the argument is cohesive, defended and clear, rather than arguing point by point in post and counter-post.
seeing as it's been in the forefront of a lot of discussion lately.
TheEvaMonkey wrote:Finally!!!
Reichu wrote:And it's all your fault!
knives wrote:[New problem]:
A.) "Rei is Lilith because Rei is Lilith" is circular.
Shin-seiki wrote:Your sneering reference to this concept indicates nothing so much as a certain obstinate cluelessness on your part. With the very first instance that we see Rei in the series (her enigmatic appearance/disappearance in the street in #01), Anno is establishing that Rei's existence is paradoxical (that is to say, her existence is manifested in ways that do not conform to the normal constraints of time and space).
Knives wrote:It's less paradoxical (this particular scene) if you're in the camp that this image of Rei is of the "Rei" during 3I (that is to say that the "Rei" of that moment can transcend time and space).
Shin-seiki wrote:When the next WTF paradox involving Rei is presented (#14, in which we discover that Rei exists both as herself (Rei II), and an other self within Unit 00 (which is identified in the script for #25 as Rei I)
Knives wrote:Actually ... this is the case (though in different degrees) for all the characters [a la "There is the Shinji in the mind of Misato, the Shinji in the mind of blah blah blah, and the Shinji in the mind of Shinji himself"] (I'm being very rough in that quote because (a) I'm really not in the mood to look it up and (b) it's going to be used in my defense of Rei later anywayz).
So it's hardly a paradox as you claim it to be (especially if you take the position that I do, which is that each Rei holds an individual soul).
Shin-seiki wrote:, Anno replays the 'Rei in the street' scene to remind us of her multiplex existence. Of course, in EoE, we get scads of Reis all over the place.
When I see something going on in NGE, my first instinct is to accept what I'm seeing, and go on from there. I seek to explain NGE, not explain it away. There is plentiful evidence that Rei is, in fact, existing in more than one place at a time thru most of the story, so your treating the idea as risible seems to reflect a stubborn refusal to face the facts as presented in the series...
Knives wrote:Again .. I'm not disagreeing with this idea of this particular form of Rei appearing in multiple places at once.
I'm disagreeing that a single soul may be in multiple places at once in a given moment of time.
In the case of the Rei which we are speaking of (Rei 3I [o.O a fourth Rei to add to the fray]) time and space are not a factor, and so she can be anywhere and every where at "once" (this is sort of how many Christians view God for instance, as being outside of time [Christ's sacrifice for instance, while taking place in time, transcends it]).
Reichu wrote:(C) A "piece" of Lilith's soul remained in her. [Uhh... I think only Wayne buys this one.]
Mr. Tines wrote:E) or perhaps (C') Most of Lilth's soul remained, and the Ayanami series only had a human-sized portion enough for such a motile unit (and possibly another measure in 00).
F (restated) Rei is only Lilith's flesh, but has been given form and animation with some recovered part of Yui (of course this doesn't answer "who's in 00", but does explain the reunion scene).
Magami No ER wrote:Wasn't there something posted here awhile ago about a Kabalistic belief that some of the soul remains in the body after it is dead? I'm just curious? If this is true then maybe they somehow used parts of the soul(somehow)for each the Reis.
knives wrote:I refuted this awhile ago (using the same document that was used as defense of the theory), but it was subsequently ignored (as per usual [playful sarcasm disclaimer]). I'll find it later (gotta go to class).
Mr. Tines wrote:soul is a shorthand for "the software that makes up a person".
knives wrote:[Other things while I'm thinking .... my theory holds that Rei (and Kaworu) while not containing the same soul as Lilith (and Adam) do have facets of their power
MDWigs wrote:"Tadaimai" ("I'm back")
"Okaerinasai" ("Welcome home")
MDWigs wrote:Statements made when Rei merges with Lilith's body in EoE.
MDWigs wrote:Not to mention the fact that the EoE Theatrical Program states that all the Rei's have the same soul and links that soul to Lilith.
Gaizokubanou wrote:Wait, so the most popular theory in AN(Rei=Lilith) claims that Lilith's soul was extracted to be given to Rei???
Goldarmy wrote:Am I the only one that ponder upon the reunion scene of Adam and Lilith containing a dialogue that usually passes between Mr. A and Mrs. A in Japan when he returns home?
Gaizokubanou wrote:But Rei is 14 years old and it seems to me that the clones couldn't be created as grown up(or with some age)... otherwise he could have made a full adult clone for... you know...
Gaizokubanou wrote:Young children are surely more suseptable to influence, but why make her 4 years old at the start if that's true?
tv33 wrote:In the series Ritsuko says they need 14 year old children to be the pilots. But the idea that age has anything to do with the mother child connection always seemed odd to me (And others as well I'm sure), and might have just been an attempt by Anno to throw the audience off. Or perhaps by that early in the show he wasn't quite sure about it himself either.
thewayneiac wrote:Could you give us some examples where anyone says this?
thewayneiac wrote:Actually, most of us here do believe that that is Rei III after she gains god-like powers. I'm not sure, however, what you mean by, "that moment". Are you saying that she only had those powers temporarily? I think it's more likely she had them permanently from that moment onward.
thewayneiac wrote:I don't get the connection here. Are you saying that the Rei in Unit-00 is different from the other Reis only in that she is someone else's idea of Rei?
thewayneiac wrote:Quote: Originally Posted by Knives Again .. I'm not disagreeing with this idea of this particular form of Rei appearing in multiple places at once.
I'm disagreeing that a single soul may be in multiple places at once in a given moment of time.
thewayneiac wrote:She's everywhere at once, but her soul isn't? If she isn't Lilith, why does she have god-like powers?
thewayneiac wrote:Quote: Originally Posted by Knives I refuted this awhile ago (using the same document that was used as defense of the theory), but it was subsequently ignored (as per usual [playful sarcasm disclaimer]). I'll find it later (gotta go to class).
thewayneiac wrote:You furthermore listed one idea on that site that stated that the piece of the soul that remains in the body stays only one year as undermining my theory, "Everyone would turn into LCL after one year.", ignoring the alternate notion stated earlier in the article that part of the soul remains in the body until the end time, awaiting resurrection.
Knives wrote:Now ... to address the site you reference, [it] argues that two of the five parts (those pertaining in particular not to that which primarily seperates man from animal — those three being "Neshamah, Chayyah and Yehidad" — but instead to that of plants and animals) separate from the other three.
One (the Nefesh) "temporarily" remains in the body, while the other (the Ruach) is purified in Gehenna for 12 months, after which it permanently enters the "Lower Gan Eden."
The other three parts (those pertaining to the human person) all immediately leave the body for "Upper Gan Eden" upon death.
*snip [that section pertaining to the "LCL after one year" comments]*
And beyond that, it makes transfer of a soul after death impossible, because the parts of the soul that make a human "human" immediately leave the body, leaving only the Nefesh in the body, and the Ruach "floating" out in Gehenna.
thewayneiac wrote:It is explicitly stated the Kaworu has Adam's soul.
thewayneiac wrote:Knives and Mr. Tines: Aren't you using the straw man argument here, stating the Rei=Lilth case in the weakest possible fashion? The preponderance of evidence is against you, and it just doesn't work to explain it all away piecemeal. You sound like lawyers with a patently guilty client trying to explain away the mounds of evidence against them.
thewayneiac wrote:Even if you succeed in refuting one or two clues, the evidence is still vastly in favor of Rei=Lilith. (For my money, "I'm home." Welcome home.", clinches it.)
Gundampilotspaz wrote:It has to be something with Third Impact. The fact that they are all 14 and third impact happened 15 years ago can't be just because Anno felt like it, especially since he went to the trouble of pointed it out. We know that Shinji had to be born very near the date of Third Impact, because Gendo returns home to tell Yui that third impact had happened when she was pregnent.
Gundampilotspaz wrote:It Add that to the fact that Misato made it a point to say that Kaworu was born ON THE DAY of third impact. .
Gundampilotspaz wrote:But the number 14 could also mean something. We know that Misato was 14 when third Impact happened. This could mean something deeper, or it was set up so that Misato would feel closer to Shinji. (the latter is most likely correct) .
Gundampilotspaz wrote:Going into a different direction we know that all the students in Shinji's class are potential pilots, they are all 14. But we don't know if they all have lost thier mother. We know that Toge and Kensuke have, and perhaps The class Rep (brain fart) since she makes lunch for her and her sister could be a hint that she has no mother. .
Gundampilotspaz wrote:But 14 is a big number. 14 is the age between childhood and adulthood where you are starting to take on more of an adult attitude and yet still act like a child.
Gaizokubanou wrote:But Rei is 14 years old and it seems to me that the clones couldn't be created as grown up(or with some age)...
Young children are surely more suseptable to influence, but why make her 4 years old at the start if that's true?
tv33 wrote:In the series Ritsuko says they need 14 year old children to be the pilots. But the idea that age has anything to do with the mother child connection always seemed odd to me (And others as well I'm sure), and might have just been an attempt by Anno to throw the audience off. Or perhaps by that early in the show he wasn't quite sure about it himself either.
Gundampilotspaz wrote:We know that Shinji had to be born very near the date of Third Impact, because Gendo returns home to tell Yui that third impact had happened when she was pregnent.
Add that to the fact that Misato made it a point to say that Kaworu was born ON THE DAY of third impact.
Gaizokubanou wrote:Shouldn't Rei 1 also had to age artificially according to your theory, since first one was also created in 2005?
Gaizokubanou wrote:Shouldn't Rei 1 also had to age artificially according to your theory, since first one was also created in 2005?
Knives wrote:But factor in the problem of how long she's been attending the Junior High or whatever it is they go to ... a length I can't recall at this time.
Anywayz ... I don't think the means really matters so much as the fact that we know she was artificially aged (this isn't under debate, is it?).
Magami No ER wrote:Seeing how much controversy this buiness of Rei and her soul has caused, I have a new question.(sorry if it goes of topic),but does anything point out any information as to what the definition of a soul in Anno's world is?(which I know relates to ours closely, making this more difficult)
If it was easy, then everyone who has seen the full series would know that Evas aren't robots, which for some stupid reason I found hard to believe at first.
What makes this harder is that Lilith seems to have been kinda stuck in towards the end, futher causing contridictions within the series.
(since not many liked Mr. Tines's theory
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