Shinji's portrayal in Eva 2.0/2.22

[GasmaskAvenger]

I think those who are rooting for Shinji and unfairly villifying him are both getting it wrong


the viewer's probably just supposed to observe what's going on without any emotional investment at all


plus the whole "One True Love" thing is complete bunk, considering it always comes from a strongly "American" viewpoint


2.0/2.22, far more so than anything in the EVA franchise (outside of the dating sims, which are very much in an abundance in Japan) is probably very much explicitly aimed at Japanese viewers and with a lost in translation and a bizarre decision to squeeze in deeply American views on it probably frustrates them to the point of I have no fuckin' clueits


The best way to approach the characters and the situation is to remain as neutral and unbiased as possible, because throwing in bias to anything fucks it up.

[fadadio]

yeah it gave me Shivers when I saw Shinjis determination. To me it does not matter wether he was condeming the world or not because he was doing this because it was what he wanted which is a huge step forward for Shinji. that and when your in the heat of the moment with your emotions going apeshit, having some time to think to yourself and consider the outcome of your actions is laughable

[CORE]

If that's meant as I reply to my post, I don't think you saw what I was getting at. It's clear that 2.0 wants us to identify with Shinji: "He's been pushed too far and now he's saving his One True Love/ getting revenge on the world!" The problem is that 2.0 totally fails at making us swallow this premise; the ending doesn't work if you don't still find Shinji basically sympathetic at this point in the movie, and I certainly did not.

A good movie can make you understand where a serial killer or a genocidal dictator is coming from, at least while you're in the theater. 2.0 is not that movie. The mawkishness is cheap and unconvincing; Shinji's anger and solipsism feels unjustified and even rather inexplicable.

Look at it a different way then. Cant expect every one to feel the same. Sure u can guess at how most people would look at some thing. but Unfortunately u will never know how they feel. No art work hands over emotions to you. So try and find some thing els you like in it if your forcing your self to look at it one way and feeling nutting. Usually the things that we see as obvious or intended only seem that way because we feel nutting and are guiltily indifferent to it. While our feelings sneak up on us.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

Shinji's rescue of Rei isn't just "selfish," it's loathsomely hypocritical when viewed in light of the Bardiel sequence. Shinji claims Gendo's an awful person for being willing to sacrifice one life, yet clearly holds Asuka's life much cheaper than Rei's.

I know. Shinji should have totally done something in that situation too. It's not like there was any stupid system or something keeping him from doing something about it...

You need to remember Shinji would have torn NERV limb from limb if Gendo didn't knock him out. Raising Hell and murdering his father over Asuka? I'd say Shinji held her life in very high regard! But Gendo was better at being bad-ass than Shinji was. Go figure...

It's clear that 2.0 wants us to identify with Shinji: "He's been pushed too far and now he's saving his One True Love/ getting revenge on the world!" The problem is that 2.0 totally fails at making us swallow this premise; the ending doesn't work if you don't still find Shinji basically sympathetic at this point in the movie, and I certainly did not.

I kind of took Rei's consumption as Shinji's "last straw" that "pushed him over the edge", which seemed set up quite properly to me in that regard.

Also, it's never establish that Shinji actually knew what was happening outside of his Evangelion. And Shinji has often times summarized everything he didn't like about life as "the world", yet always come back to Misato, Toji, Kensuke, ect. to get away from "the world" even though they're technically part of "the world". It's a contradiction within Shinji that was present in NGE and is also being carried over several times in NME as well, including the 10th Angel attack. Nothing to hate NME over, at least not in a way that wouldn't also make you hate NGE.

Most of my issues with these themes within NME is that the new films feel a little rushed in order to explore them properly. For example: we have considerably fewer scenes in 2.22 where Shinji is attacking himself about his various contradictions than we did at this point in NGE. And though NME may never have a scene with the iconic elements of the Shinji Ikari's within the mind of others, the films at least need to bring Shinji's contradictions to the forefront at some point in 3.0/4.0 in some manner as they were in NGE. And, like I've said in other places, 1.11 and 2.22 were still in the "let's have fun/be bad-ass" stages of story-telling just as the first half on NGE were. If the series actually springs off of the tones introduced at the end of 2.22, we can expect 3.0 and 4.0 to have those same tones and finally introduce those terrible contradictions within the character.

I like how you guys think Anno is writing Shinji to be a likable character this time around. He never said "Rebuild" would be different from NGE in that regard...

[Sailor Star Dust]

is probably very much explicitly aimed at Japanese viewers and with a lost in translation and a bizarre decision to squeeze in deeply American views on it probably frustrates them to the point of I have no fuckin' clue

Well, myself and others have stated several times that 2.0/2.22 is a very Japanese film (the concept of Rei's dinner party, Shinji's emotional attitude towards both girls, Asuka, a German girl (Western) getting used to life in Japan, maybe the West also "invading" in the form of Mari (Britain) but that's hard to say since she doesn't bitch about Japan like Asuka does, the concept of obentou and the concept of girls cooking for the boys they like, etc) so I agree that certain concepts are lost in translation which is where misunderstandings on Western's part will come from.

Where do you find the film "squeezing in deeply American views", though? In the scenes with Mari or Asuka?

I agree that remaining detached while watching the events of Near Third Impact/etc unfold is a good mentality to have, however for the fans of Old Eva, that's going to be difficult--considering their expectations/viewpoints/whatever else of the characters and events/plots they've already come to know and understand. Fans or film-goers who only got into the franchise thanks to New Eva are going to have an easier time with this detachment/only understanding what's on-screen since they obviously have nothing else to measure the events/characters by.

[Tarnsman]

Well, myself and others have stated several times that 2.0/2.22 is a very Japanese film (the concept of Rei's dinner party, Shinji's emotional attitude towards both girls, Asuka, a German girl (Western) getting used to life in Japan, maybe the West also "invading" in the form of Mari (Britain) but that's hard to say since she doesn't bitch about Japan like Asuka does, the concept of obentou and the concept of girls cooking for the boys they like, etc) so I agree that certain concepts are lost in translation which is where misunderstandings on Western's part will come from.

I love the notion that the West doesn't understand those concepts, when they all pretty much happen in the West. Yes, there are minor differences, but none of those are completely alien. This misconception comes from what the West expects/wants in media, not from the inability to understand those concepts.

[GasmaskAvenger]

Where do you find the film "squeezing in deeply American views"?

what I meant by that was that people are trying too hard to squeeze in hardcore American viewpoints in a very distinctively Japanese product mainly aimed for Japanese consumers, thus creating viewpoints being lost in translation and shoehorning analytical concepts relatively incompatible to their culture (or something to that nature).


Though EVA (obviously) has many fans outside of Japan, 2.22 is, at heart, a product aimed for Japanese viewers made by Japanese people, perhaps far more so than before.


I wasn't talking about American/Non-Japanese views being squeezed in by Anno, Khara and Co. via certain characters (Asuka, who's quite more fashioned for Japanese viewers this time around and Mari, who's really the closest to more International figure than anyone else here, despite the lack of character details revealed, which was probably deliberate), I was talking about needlessly passionate people wasting their energy and health trying to adapt and use American troupes and cliches as rants and complaints towards a deeply Japanese product.

Of course, they have the right to express disappointment and such, i'm just tired of seeing people resorting to obviously thinking too linear and two-dimensional in their thought process of complaining, all while resorting to using relatively awkward ways to argue about stuff

This misconception comes from what the West expects/wants in media, not from the inability to understand those concepts.

exactly

[Knuckles]

Gasmask, could you elaborate on American vs Japanese viewpoints in relation to this movie? Sure it goes without saying for you and some others, but it's kind of like preaching about how great your favorite band is without saying who they are. I'm assuming you're talking about the romance and shipping going on, though?

[GasmaskAvenger]

@Knuckles


It's really a more or less overall the total package of the tone and interaction of the characters


Us Americans tend to really express our feelings and emotions, but judging by some small knowledge, the Japanese way of expressing yourself is a bit more...subtle and less expressive


It's actually not easy to explain, but the aura definitely hints this

[liquidus118]

Oh, you act like every character in any Evangelion saga wasn't selfish to some degree. It's not like anyone was doing anybody any favors in the original series either. Everyone had hidden motives, secret agendas, and selfish plot twists. Everyone! And the one time Shinji was considering Rei and Misato in episode 4, he got chewed out by Misato and ran away for a whole 21-minute montage. Then after deciding not to jump off a cliff and selfishly end it all, he returns back to Misato as if he was expecting her to miss him or something.

Touching? Yes. Selfish? Also yes.

The only difference in Rebuild is that he's not being a wimp about his selfishness. Even Third Impact in The End of Evangelion catered to his selfishness/wants/desires/same thing. And he did what he wanted with it as a result.

Scary and beautiful? Yes. Selfish? Also yes.

So, I guess I don't see what this whole "Selfish Shinji" complaint is about. Anno figured people liked the original show with the selfish Shinji in it, so just making him bad-ass as well in the remakes shouldn't harm anything either. And taking away the only girl his age he's ever known that well would be a very good reason for Shinji to go balls-to-the-walls about it.

Awesome? Yes. Selfish? Also yes.

Selfish is one thing. Going "Fuck the world! I've got the hots for my clone Mommy!" is something entirely different.

The selfishness isn't what makes most people's view of the scene so peculiar to me. As I said before, it's the level of selfishness and what it's for.

[Guilt & Innocence]

I don't see Shinji as valuing anybody's life over another person or anything like that. He was obviously pushed over the edge, and God knows what would happen if Shinji lost his two best "friends". He didn't want to be alone, so he made sure that he wouldn't and there you go, Pseudo - God evolution. Yes, he almost ruined the goddamn world, but it would of probably ended anyway if he lost her.

[Kendrix]

Yeah, it wasn't a concious decision like that, it was a "spur of the moment" emotional reaction.
No one takes their time to think when a loved person is in acute danger, but close enough to just reach for her.
He had no idea he could cause TI, and no one would stop to think in such a situation.

There was never the choice "Rei or the world", with Shinji choosing the former, he stopped caring about anything long before.
What prompted him to go and save Rei was the realization that there are things he cares about - His choice was between "save something" or "save nothing".
He was running away from everything and hiding himself in the darkness of that shelter before he resolved to save Rei. Saving her was a step forwards.
He says that " I don't care about the world" thing as a response to Ritsuko's warning concerning his own safety, to add emphasis to "I don't care about myself" (as in "...nor anything else"), long before TI starts - I'm not debating that he probably really didn't care (but srl, tell me of a single EVA character that ever thought of the big picture. In fact, Real ppl don't do that so much), but ne never conciously wished for everything to go to hell, he's more like... meh towards it/not thinking about it right now. No 14 year old boy who just saw a friend die, had the relationship with his father shattered and knows the girl he loves is in danger would think of "the world/big picture" if he's not explicitly told to.

Also, you haters need to stop belittling Rei like that. Keep in mind that EoE confrms her as standing for Hope...

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

Selfish is one thing. Going "Fuck the world! I've got the hots for my clone Mommy!" is something entirely different.

The selfishness isn't what makes most people's view of the scene so peculiar to me. As I said before, it's the level of selfishness and what it's for.

Please read my other posts...

I kind of took Rei's consumption as Shinji's "last straw" that "pushed him over the edge", which seemed set up quite properly to me in that regard.

Also, it's never establish that Shinji actually knew what was happening outside of his Evangelion. And Shinji has often times summarized everything he didn't like about life as "the world", yet always come back to Misato, Toji, Kensuke, ect. to get away from "the world" even though they're technically part of "the world". It's a contradiction within Shinji that was present in NGE and is also being carried over several times in NME as well, including the 10th Angel attack. Nothing to hate NME over, at least not in a way that wouldn't also make you hate NGE.

Most of my issues with these themes within NME is that the new films feel a little rushed in order to explore them properly. For example: we have considerably fewer scenes in 2.22 where Shinji is attacking himself about his various contradictions than we did at this point in NGE. And though NME may never have a scene with the iconic elements of the Shinji Ikari's within the mind of others, the films at least need to bring Shinji's contradictions to the forefront at some point in 3.0/4.0 in some manner as they were in NGE. And, like I've said in other places, 1.11 and 2.22 were still in the "let's have fun/be bad-ass" stages of story-telling just as the first half on NGE were. If the series actually springs off of the tones introduced at the end of 2.22, we can expect 3.0 and 4.0 to have those same tones and finally introduce those terrible contradictions within the character.

I like how you guys think Anno is writing Shinji to be a likable character this time around. He never said "Rebuild" would be different from NGE in that regard...

Just to reiterate (and to type something original-ish), the only fault the remake films have so far is not exploring these contradictions within the character enough. They are mentioned, but only enough to get a point across and movie on the with plot. And I think the future film might give us some of the exploration needed to map out this contradiction within Shinji's character as well as it was in the original NGE.

Again, +1 to what Kendrix is saying.

[Sailor Star Dust]

Slight ramble ahead, need to get these thoughts out. (Though knowing me, I rambled about them long before in similar threads and I'm simply forgetting where. Oh well.)

This misconception comes from what the West expects/wants in media, not from the inability to understand those concepts.

I didn't completely understand what Gasmask was saying, which is why I needed clarification from him. Besides, there's no reason why some cases can't be a combination of both (though that obviously depends on each viewer), anyway. I'm not saying every single Western is going to have an inability to understand the film or get pissed off because of their wants/exceptions from media, but I have seen such examples on EGF at least.

SOME--but not all--of the debating IS inability to understand. One example I've seen on EGF: people have actually written off Shinji's behavior towards the girls as being misogynistic (Because he managed to save Rei and not Asuka). The argument goes: Rei and Asuka cook for him (even though Shinji does most of the cooking in-film and he's not aware of their cooking for him!) and they get cuts on their hands as a result and supposedly the girl with the most cuts "won" the love triangle in the film's finale. It just strikes me as ridiculous because if you watch almost any shoujo anime, you'll see girls cooking for boys they like--which is a very common theme--even Hikari does it for Toji in NGE.

And to say Rei "won" while Shinji neglected Asuka is also incomprehensible to me: Shinji left Nerv because of what happened to Asuka. It's going to be a lot easier for him to focus on the anger of his father with what happened during the 9th Angel/Bardiel compared to focusing on Asuka's current state/the fact that he nearly killed a fellow pilot & roommate. I wrote this earlier in-thread, but another example of inability or refusal to understand: Asuka set the boundaries on their relationship so naturally Shinji's not going to step over the line without permission since Shikinami is more of a loner like NGE-Shinji instead of being outgoing ala Soryu. Put another way, unless Asuka or anybody else's outgoing (that's not a buddy like Toji or Kensuke) to him, he's going to mostly keep to himself. Asuka keeps to herself thus their relationship stays the same.

Shinji--to me at least--comes across as being in denial (or at least refusing to think about it--and again, focusing on the anger/uncertainty of 10 years past at Gendo) about what happened to Asuka by running away from the situation. Mari makes Shinji realize Rei was absorbed, Shinji thinks about Asuka by seeing the blood on Eva-02's hand, and whether or not Rei is dead, he's going to FIND a way to save her, even (especially?) if it results in him still running away to a "safe" person (think Kaworu in Episode 24' or Asuka in EoE) so he can "reject this cruel world" (Hell Train line).

His experiences with Yui/Eva-01 and Rei in 3.0 are bound to be interesting, I really hope we're going to see him grow and mature in the last two films. Realize that valuing A life is good (Rei) but he needs to value lives of others--including his own. Realize that shit happens but running away makes things worse, realize that life is what you make of it. Basically his lessons from EoTV and EoE, but hopefully he'll be shown applying them in some manner instead of the potentially but never-shown bright future (now go out their and apply some life lessons!) with EoTV's ending versus the bittersweetness and confusion (Life goes on, but it can really suck, even if there are good things too!) of EoE's ending.

Also, I'm hopeful that Shinji "going Gurren Lagann style" to save Rei will be brilliant deconstruction/satire in 3.0 and 4.0 (Chrad has some excellent posts on this) considering Shinji ends up inside of Mommy with Rei--and how much control Shinji had versus Yui is subject to debate--but we'll see.

[Tarnsman]

SOME--but not all--of the debating IS inability to understand. One example I've seen on EGF: people have actually written off Shinji's behavior towards the girls as being misogynistic (Because he managed to recuse Rei and not Asuka). The argument goes: Rei and Asuka cook for him (even though Shinji does most of the cooking in-film!) and they get cuts on their hands as a result (although he's not aware of their cooking) and supposedly the girl with the most cuts "won" in the love triangle. It just strikes me as ridiculous because if you watch almost any shoujo anime, you'll see girls cooking for boys they like--which is a very common theme--even Hikari does it for Toji in NGE.

Here is my entire problem, the "misunderstandings" you listed, have all of Jack and Sir Isaac Newton to do with the film being Japanese.

Girls cooking for boys they like is not a Japanese only tradition. Giving gifts/food to, and sharing a meal with, someone you like is not a Japanese only tradition. Trying to get two people to reconcile/connect through a social gathering is not Japanese only (I'm pretty sure every single sitcom in history, has had at least one episode based around it). A kid having trouble adjusting to a new environment and not liking the customs is certainly not exclusive to Japanese culture. Socially awkward teenagers who don't truly understand their feelings/know how to properly express them are not inherently Japanese either.

The "people don't like it because it's too Japanese" is flat out wrong.

I agree with your other points. People are forcing the square shape through the circle hole to reach some of these conclusions, but none of it has to do with the film being too Japanese for them to fully understand. If 2.xx was the most Western film ever made, and it crapped guns and American flags, statements like Shinji being misogynistic would still be retarded.

Edit: SSD though jack and excrement was too harsh, has been replaced.

[Kendrix]

They really did that?
The misogynistic thing, I mean?
This... this isn't a joke, is it?

[TheFriskyIan]

"FUCK THE WORLD! I'M SAVING Rei!"

I would do the same thing if I were him. Those red eyes were cool.

[Sailor Star Dust]

Tarnsman: I'm not saying people don't like 2.0 because it's too Japanese (If so, what are they doing watching anime in the first place?), I'm saying that it's possible certain concepts are "lost in translation" for some or in general, misconceptions are occurring.

Obviously what the film includes are not Japanese only traditions, my point is the concept of food which nicely ties into the other film's concept of knowing others wants and needs does have a rather Japanese feel to it.

I honestly don't remember anything in NGE striking me this way, although NGE mainly focused on the world within Tokyo-3 instead of international politics. Maybe that's why. Or maybe I'm wrong with this thought process about 2.0 feeling "Japanese". But there IS some sort of difference in 2.0's approach to interactions/character understandings compared to their equivalent episodes. IMO, it's not a pacing or character development issue either, but I can't put my finger on it. Perhaps it is just the overall feel of the film of it supposedly being "lighter and brighter" (until "things get worse" with the 9th and 10th Angel battles) than NGE, I'm honestly not sure.

Whether or not you agree with my point of view, that's fine, of course, but I hope this post clarifies things more.

By the way, your post is somewhat harsh with the "jack and shit"; there's no need for that.

Kendrix: If you dig through that large "Debate Rebuild" thread (or maybe one of the "Shinji Better or Worse" threads) it should be early-on in there.

[Xard]

"FUCK THE WORLD! I'M SAVING Rei!"

I would do the same thing if I were him. Those red eyes were cool.

Choice:

have pseudo-spiritual sex with Rei in other dimension for all eternity and fuck the world

OR

live with the stupid meatbags in a world where everyone just screws you over without Rei booty


Any sane man would do the same thing Shinji did. How one can refuse that option, really...

[Tarnsman]

Tarnsman: I'm not saying people don't like 2.0 because it's too Japanese (If so, what are they doing watching anime in the first place?), I'm saying that it's possible certain concepts are "lost in translation" for some or in general, misconceptions are occurring.

Obviously what the film includes are not Japanese only traditions, my point is the concept of food which nicely ties into the other film's concept of knowing others wants and needs does have a rather Japanese feel to it.

I honestly don't remember anything in NGE striking me this way, although NGE mainly focused on the world within Tokyo-3 instead of international politics. Maybe that's why. Or maybe I'm wrong with this thought process about 2.0 feeling "Japanese". But there IS some sort of difference in 2.0's approach to interactions/character understandings compared to their equivalent episodes. IMO, it's not a pacing or character development issue either, but I can't put my finger on it. Perhaps it is just the overall feel of the film of it supposedly being "lighter and brighter" (until "things get worse" with the 9th and 10th Angel battles) than NGE, I'm honestly not sure.

It definitely has a more "lighter and brighter" feel to it (for the first half) but it doesn't feel "Japanese". It feels like a more traditional story about normal people during the first part of the movie as opposed to NGE feeling more focused on damaged/broken people, even during the silly moments. There is a difference that many people dislike, it however has nothing to do with cultural boundaries or misunderstandings, it has to do with what people want.

For example: Your gripe with people saying Rei has "won". Regardless of culture, people ship. People project this desire for a romantic pairing onto the things they watch, and thus they're more inclined to believe that Rei has "won" for the rest of the series, because they want that. This has nothing to do with them being unable to decipher hidden cultural meanings, it has to do with them wanting Rei and Shinji to get together and have lots of little WINcest babies.

Sorry if "jack and shit" was too harsh for you, I was not trying to insult you, it was passive swearing.