Shinji's portrayal in Eva 2.0/2.22

[Seph]

Everyone loves Rebuild Shinji because the ending. 2.0 has him behave in ways that action movies have conditioned audiences to expect from sci-fi protagonists. That seems to be pretty much the only reason. It doesn't matter if he has any real depth or if his actions make sense; he's "badass."

What do you base that on? It's certainly not why I like Rebuild!Shinji.

Because how it was probably "meant" to be interpreted isn't at all how it appears to me, or to Lucretius, or to probably quite a few other people, when we consider it in any amount of depth? I'm not saying it to piss you off, I'm saying it because it's honestly what I see in the film.

I can respect that. What pisses me off isn't that you hold a different opinionj from mine; that's a good thing, it's just that you keep writing in absolute terms. I haven't seen you say: "IMO, Shinji was playing favourites with his coworkers' lifes." That is opinion, an opinion which we can disagree about and argue, but still and opinion. Instead, you say "Rebuild!Shinji plays favourites with his coworkers' lifes." That's not an opinion, that's stating a fact.

I honestly don't care how it was "meant" to be interpreted; Shinji's motives are so vaguely defined and his dialogue is so interplanetary that I've seen various reviews claiming him to be all over the spectrum, ranging from a great hero to a murderous sociopath. I don't know whether he's supposed to be either of those things, but he's played so vaguely at such crucial moments that we're left to mentally fill in the blanks to give reasons for all the inexplicable shit he does.

Obviously he's meant to be seen by new viewers as a Hero of Great Power(TM), but IMO, it's just as obvious that he older fans are supposed to easily spot the similarities between what Shinji is doing when he saves Rei, and what he did in 26'.

Anyway, I could just as easily tell everyone who thinks Shinji is more relateable in Rebuild "Stop saying that. He isn't! He isn't at all! You shouldn't feel that way, we get the point," and without any actual discussion to back up the statement, it's just saying "If you disagree with me, shut up!" This is not how discussion works. I accept that your interpretation differs from mine; I'm not telling you you're not allowed to interpret it that way. Please, give me the same courtesy.

I've made myself clear above, so I see no need to reply to this.

That's at least two marks on the Bingo board from just this one post. C'mon.

Ridiculing legitimate arguments don't make them any less legitimate. I can easily do the same thing.I realise that there is a repetition or two in there. I was in no way taking this seriously while creating it.

There, so now all of those arguments are void... Oh, wait a minute... NO THEY'RE NOT. This is part of my problem with you: Stating your own opinion as fact, and proceeding to ridicule the ooposition with stupid, pointless things like that bingo board.

[Nonoriri]

I can respect that. What pisses me off isn't that you hold a different opinionj from mine; that's a good thing, it's just that you keep writing in absolute terms. I haven't seen you say: "IMO, Shinji was playing favourites with his coworkers' lifes." That is opinion, an opinion which we can disagree about and argue, but still and opinion. Instead, you say "Rebuild!Shinji plays favourites with his coworkers' lifes." That's not an opinion, that's stating a fact.

Time and time again: Whatever you say is what you think, we don't ever need to qualify that. We aren't 12.

[esselfortium]

I can respect that. What pisses me off isn't that you hold a different opinionj from mine; that's a good thing, it's just that you keep writing in absolute terms. I haven't seen you say: "IMO, Shinji was playing favourites with his coworkers' lifes." That is opinion, an opinion which we can disagree about and argue, but still and opinion. Instead, you say "Rebuild!Shinji plays favourites with his coworkers' lifes." That's not an opinion, that's stating a fact.

No one else here is required to state their interpretation specifically as a personal opinion, so neither am I; it's assumed. It's hard to be persuasive in a thread meant for debating the merits and flaws of a character (or film, or whatever) if you have to give a disclaimer to every idea you're basing your argument on.

If anything in this thread was an undeniable, objective fact, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. We're here to compare and contrast our opinions of the meaning of what we saw, not to discuss historical events.

Ridiculing legitimate arguments don't make them any less legitimate. I can easily do the same thing.I realise that there is a repetition or two in there. I was in no way taking this seriously while creating it.

There, so now all of those arguments are void... Oh, wait a minute... NO THEY'RE NOT. This is part of my problem with you: Stating your own opinion as fact, and proceeding to ridicule the ooposition with stupid, pointless things like that bingo board.

Sorry, but bandwagon arguments like "funny that so many other people liked this" still don't change anything, nor do they contribute anything of value to a debate.

Plus, many of the things on your response board are either equally worthless non-arguments as the ones listed on mine (i.e. why would I be defending them? are you expecting me to?) or are completely dismissing what's actually been said. There have been quite a few lengthy explanations, for instance, of why most of the complaints made about 2.0 wouldn't be able to be changed or nullified by a later film. Even so, "obviously the next movies can't/won't fix it" by itself is a worthless statement. It's been backed up with actual in-depth arguments and points, though.

I only bring out the bingo board when criticism is deflected by way of a strawman, ad-hominem, outright dismissal, or temper tantrum. Context matters a lot in determining a statement's Bingo-worthiness; I should've linked to the actual post with the full game rules, but I didn't feel like digging it up.

With that in mind, you're on.

[ran1]

I don't like the attitudes here -- people need to remember that I'm the only one allowed to speak in absolutes.

[Lucretius]

and his dialogue is so interplanetary

Ah yes. Lest we forget his timeless dialogue:

[GasmaskAvenger]

@ Seph: thanks for making that bingo

it'll come in handy


and "I Just Can't Kill Someone" can easily be fixed with pragmatic Japanese-to-English translation


because remember, folks...New Movie Edition is easily as wonky sounding to begin with

[Sun Stealer]

A deranged Shinji pets a stoned Rei and tells her, "f**k the world." While outside, Dr. Exposition explains to Misato that Shinji is initiating 3I. Misato immediately stops encouraging Shinji when she learns this and adopts an "oh s**t!" face.

This was the one part of the movie that wasn't hopelessly muddled. As refreshing as it is to see Shinji take some initiative for once, I think his actions are supposed to be met with disapproval, as audiences have long been conditioned to believe ending the world to be a dick move.

[Assasinate]

well.... he gave importance to Rei and thats the good thing...
but wel.. he still have the crap EMO STUFF on him... and thats the WORST...

[Warren Peace]

I think the pairing of Rei with Shinji's headphones is significant. What does the player represent? Detachment, a rejection of the broader world in exchange for isolation and fantasy. In other words, the exact same thing Shinji chooses when he decides to rescue Rei! This is the clearest example that Anno means for us to disapprove of Shinji's decision. When he embraces Rei, he re-embraces the player, as negative a symbol in Evangelion as has ever been.

[Seph]

No one else here is required to state their interpretation specifically as a personal opinion, so neither am I; it's assumed. It's hard to be persuasive in a thread meant for debating the merits and flaws of a character (or film, or whatever) if you have to give a disclaimer to every idea you're basing your argument on.

Obviously, but you've used that specific line so many times that it's really starting to feel like you're stating an absolute. Or am I the only one who feels that way? In that case, I apologize.

Sorry, but bandwagon arguments like "funny that so many other people liked this" still don't change anything, nor do they contribute anything of value to a debate.

Plus, many of the things on your response board are either equally worthless non-arguments as the ones listed on mine (i.e. why would I be defending them? are you expecting me to?) or are completely dismissing what's actually been said.

No, I am simply trying to point out that both sides use these ridiculous arguments. and that some of them are not ridiculous, and that putting them on a bingo board doesn't change anything.

There have been quite a few lengthy explanations, for instance, of why most of the complaints made about 2.0 wouldn't be able to be changed or nullified by a later film. Even so, "obviously the next movies can't/won't fix it" by itself is a worthless statement. It's been backed up with actual in-depth arguments and points, though.

Yes, and most of them have been thoroughly debunked by Xard, whom I agree with.

I only bring out the bingo board when criticism is deflected by way of a strawman, ad-hominem, outright dismissal, or temper tantrum. Context matters a lot in determining a statement's Bingo-worthiness; I should've linked to the actual post with the full game rules, but I didn't feel like digging it up.

With that in mind, you're on.

Same to you then, I hope that both bingo boards will eventually nullify one another.

Ah yes. Lest we forget his timeless dialogue:

Shinji is saying that he can't kill a human being. I think that's actually quite touching, that it isn't just because it's Asuka, but because it's a human being. Of course, it being Asuka makes it even worse for him, as you can tell from his dialogue when trying to destroy NERV HQ, but it's mostly because he doesn't want to kill another human that he stops in his tracks.

Ridiculing the line by using Tommy Wiseau doesn't change anything.

[esselfortium]

Shinji is saying that he can't kill a human being. I think that's actually quite touching, that it isn't just because it's Asuka, but because it's a human being. Of course, it being Asuka makes it even worse for him, as you can tell from his dialogue when trying to destroy NERV HQ, but it's mostly because he doesn't want to kill another human that he stops in his tracks.

How is it 'touching' to use an impersonal abstraction when referring to the prospect of killing someone you know?

"Mm, Asuka.." "How was it, Shin?" "I just had sex with someone." "._."

It shifts the focus to him and his own innocence, and it makes no sense.

[Lucretius]

Shinji is saying that he can't kill a human being. I think that's actually quite touching, that it isn't just because it's Asuka, but because it's a human being.

The implication that he doesn't care at all about the person inside Unit 03 is "touching?"

By way of contrast, I don't believe Shinji ever talked about killing Kaworu in such clinical, abstract terms.

[Nonoriri]

That someone line really does only make sense in the original scene, here it's extremely general being that he does indeed know who is inside. But I don't read too much into it. Maybe he wants to protect his innocence maybe he just really sucks at expressing himself in human terms, or maybe they just reused dialogue without realizing the context change here? (lol)

[ran1]

Yes, and most of them have been thoroughly debunked by Xard, whom I agree with.

Yes and if you recall I've already debunked Xard's debunking.

[Lucretius]

re Nonoriri: It's probably the last one, but the in-universe implications are amusingly horrifying.

[KnightmareX13]

That someone line really does only make sense in the original scene, here it's extremely general being that he does indeed know who is inside. But I don't read too much into it. Maybe he wants to protect his innocence maybe he just really sucks at expressing himself in human terms.

Shinji doesn't like to hurt people, he was horrified when he learned Toji's sister got hurt during a battle, when Toji allowed Shinji to hit him back he refused until Toji urged him to, and during the Unit 03 incident he did not like the idea of killing another human being, who he happens to know in both the NGE and NME cases plus he doesn't like that fact that his father orders him to be the one to do it and that his Gendo doesn't care if the pilot that is trapped dies.

[esselfortium]

Shinji doesn't like to hurt people, he was horrified when he learned Toji's sister got hurt during a battle, when Toji allowed Shinji to hit him back he refused until Toji urged him to, and during the Unit 03 incident he did not like the idea of killing another human being, who he happens to know in both the NGE and NME cases plus he doesn't like that fact that his father orders him to be the one to do it and that his Gendo doesn't care if the pilot that is trapped dies.

Yes, but this is not an abstract, vague, hypothetical situation. There is one person whose life Shinji is currently holding in his hands, and the line makes him appear more concerned about the general concept of his own having to kill than he is about their life. We already know Shinji doesn't like to hurt people; all this line does is make it seem as though his motives for not liking to hurt people are far more self-centered and sociopathic than the script likely intended them to be. Unless he was intended to seem unsympathetic and consider his own innocence to be of greater importance than his friend's death. If that was the actual intent, I don't know what to say.

[GasmaskAvenger]

people are far more self-centered and sociopathic than the script likely intended them to be.

stop that...unless you can provide me a cut scene where he chases a random woman with a chainsaw after killing a second woman

[Nonoriri]

stop that...unless you can provide me a cut scene where he chases a random woman with a chainsaw after killing a second woman

You don't have to actively act on those qualities to have sociopathic tendencies/be a sociopath, besides that it's probable that Shinji does have antisocial personality disorder :P

[GasmaskAvenger]

okay...that I can see


but stop using words like sociopathic to describe Rebuild Shinji. You're giving me mental images of him reenacting the crimes Ted Bundy committed and such


i'm a huge horror film junkie, so calling a character in a non-horror film/crime film/murder mystery/etc. that is just rubbing me the wrong way, especially since you don't actively see him committing crimes (except for his temper tantrum after the Dummy Plug debacle, but I look at him having a massive Superboy Prime moment, but on a much smaller scale)


I dunno...it just feels like people finding excuses to hide the real reasons they're upset with the film, which is quite pure and simple (and no, I won't say it out loud so the lame bingo gets a cue card)