Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

[Sailor Star Dust]

If Rebuild!Asuka has Toji status on the Shinji relationship scale, the movie did an awkward job showing it.

What Monk Ed said, but also: I assumed that Asuka wasn't on a relationship scale of Toji. Shikinami was "only" a roommate and fellow pilot, not anybody close. So far there's no romantic interest on Shinji's end, but it's not like Shinji completely ignored Asuka either. I think this is where people have misconceptions about the film.

And hell, even with Rei, Shinji is treating the girl similar to NGE!Kaworu where he's mainly interested in Rei for personal reasons (Which is as a means of getting closer to Gendo. With NGE!Kaworu, it's to find solace in another person since everything's going to shit.) despite there being genuine caring. (Stop and think about it: Does Shinji ever really try to get to know NME!Rei or NGE!Kaworu on a personal level?) Yet there obviously is genuine caring, when you remember Shinji is pretty nurturing to Rei, Asuka and Misato in 2.xx with playing the part of caretaker/cooking them meals.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

What Monk Ed said, but also: I assumed that Asuka wasn't on a relationship scale of Toji. Shikinami was "only" a roommate and fellow pilot, not anybody close. So far there's no romantic interest on Shinji's end, but it's not like Shinji completely ignored Asuka either. I think this is where people have misconceptions about the film.

This. And I think Shinji's reaction was valid for a roommate dying. I think Asuka might have been entertaining some sort of romantic thoughts toward Shinji, but only in the confusing way 14 girls do. (I was 5 when my older sister was 14, and learned to bend an ear for my two younger sisters, all of them older than 14 now. Asuka's pretty darn close to reality in this regard.)

[Nonoriri]

I think that them not really being friends is a problem that isn't going to magically be solved in 3.0. Since characters revolve around him after all, but it isn't a bad thing if that goes out the window.. however unlikely a scenario that is.

[Warren Peace]

I'm not sure a single line of dialogue ("lose someone who's important to you") is worth coming back to this again and again and again and... again. Even if the line was ill-advised, maybe we should let it go.

Shinji ranks the people in his life in order of importance, just like all do. I don't think it matters who "wins" -- Asuka is a fellow Eva pilot, has a semi-adversarial relationship with Shinji, and is a girl. None of that's true for Toji (at this point) so it's apples to oranges.

Yeah, in what way though? Is he going to use that energy to blow it up or start punching his way through the base?

I think he means he would physically rip it apart using the Eva. The foot stomping might even be the beginning of his attack.

[SaltyJoe]

Since characters revolve around him after all, but it isn't a bad thing if that goes out the window.. however unlikely a scenario that is.

That would have to change in Q for at least a little bit, considering that Rei and Shinji are stuck inside Unit-01. And having them get out in a flash would make the situation of them being trapped in the first place pretty pointless. Getting out of Eva-01 should be a big event, at least i think so, not some throwaway "let's get this over with" happening at the start of the film (at least for Shinji. Actually, i would love it if Rei made it out first. She could do something without "poka poka"-boy for a change. And keeping her and Yui separate might be a good idea, at least as far as preserving mysteries go). But, the real world can't (shouldn't) just hit pause while they are in 01, and that's where all the other characters are at the moment.

And all anyone seems to be complaining about with 2.22 is a supporting character. It's not a bad movie.

There's a lot to bitch about regarding Shinji too, at least i find it to be so. Like how keeping him a largely reactive character in day to day situtations whithout giving him any other characters to really play ball with results in a pretty lackluster, meandering characterization for him as well, amongst other things.

[Brainman]

There's a lot to bitch about regarding Shinji too, at least i find it to be so. Like how keeping him a largely reactive character in day to day situtations whithout giving him any other characters to really play ball with results in a pretty lackluster, meandering characterization for him as well, amongst other things.

Yep.

Asuka acting as a non-foil to him makes their dynamic really flat. Having them both be reclusive weirdos forces their scenes in public to be pretty dull. But I guess making sure they don't have a dynamic is part of the short list of achievements this movie wanted to do, but whatever.

[SaltyJoe]

Asuka acting as a non-foil to him makes their dynamic really flat. Having them both be reclusive weirdos forces their scenes in public to be pretty dull. But I guess making sure they don't have a dynamic is part of the short list of achievements this movie wanted to do, but whatever.

Asuka's not the only one, though. Misato, who would make the other good possible foil for Shinji has about two scenes with him where she talks at him, not to him and he barely reacts. Same with Kaji and Mari, the other possible candidates.

And his scenes with Rei are just so damn anemic, unless you're wearing shipper googles. Not to mention the he learns next to nothing about the girl. Arguably, Shinji has to most lively ensemble scenes (okay, just the ice-cream scene) with Touji and Kensuke.... in other words, the two characters who have no real function in the movie.

[Brainman]

And his scenes with Rei are just so damn anemic, unless you're wearing shipper googles.

The whole thing starts to come off to me as a big budget animated Re-Take but for Rei fans.

Not quite, but the 'minimization' of certain characters and their arcs makes things feel off balance to me. But actually, I take that back. Because Rei doesn't really factor into the character interaction side of the story much either. In fact, she's off camera for much of the movie baking a cake or something. Then she's suddenly this big deal at the end. What, because she said something next to a fish tank and liked a bowl of soup? Even when his pals were playing up his big dinner with Rei he was kind of just like "Duh, what? Oh right. Yeah, I guess so, huh."

Wait, what is this movie?

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

The whole thing starts to come off to me as a big budget animated Re-Take but for Rei fans.

Not quite, but the 'minimization' of certain characters and their arcs makes things feel off balance to me. But actually, I take that back. Because Rei doesn't really factor into the character interaction side of the story much either.

Wasn't this the same issue with Episode 23 of the original NGE series? After Episode 6, Rei just kinda drops off the face of the Earth for a long time, and suddenly her sacrificing herself 16 episodes later hits Shinji hard for some reason.

Yeah, it's kind of an issue. But I actually think this was an issue handled better in NME than it was in NGE. And I still enjoyed Episode 23 of NGE, so this I kinda like this aspect of NME better. At least both Shinji and the viewers are reminded of Rei before she was put in peril.

I really don't see what the problem is. Maybe issues about the original NGE series are becoming more obvious in the NME films because they're shorter and more compressed.

[Seele00TextOnly]

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[Brainman]

^

Well, it's a different set up in the series. In the old show, episodes 21, 22, and 23 were systematically removing Shinji's support systems. First Misato closes herself off in her room after Kaji's death. Then Asuka gets raped of course and shuts herself up in Hikari's house. Then finally Rei blows up then forgets much of her relationship with him. After that, Shinji's friends move out. So this sets up the thing where he's vulnerable to Kawrou's charms. It wasn't really just about Rei in peril, it was about life kicking Shinji's legs out from under him by way of his relationships.

And actually, I don't know if it was really for Shinji's sake she blew herself up. She explicitly says she wont let it happen when she realizes her heart's desire to become one with Shinji. Then finally it's actually Gendo's image she sees before 'sploding.

Oh, I guess I should tie something in about Rebuild since this is the thread for it. Um, the situation's different this time. Rei reciprocates Shinji's kindness and becomes a damsel in distress instead of it being complete self sacrifice in a general sense.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

The audience was reminded of Rei beforehand by the elevator scene, her use of the lance in the previous episode, the reveal of the child Rei in the previous episode to that one, etc.

True. But the viewers were reminded of Rei in 2.22 as well in ways more inviting. (Dinner invitations and such.) The amount of times Rei becomes a reminder is probably about the same, it's just that how Rei becomes so is just different. It's a more obvious dedication to Shinji building up through her preparation for the dinner that leads into her sacrifice at the end. I mean, I know it was just dinner and all seems rather small and stuff. But I think the point was Shinji was the first to really treat Rei as another person, whereas Gedno and Ritsuko treated her otherwise. This new treatment Shinji gives her builds up in Rei and compels her to do what she does for Shinji in the end.

And actually, I don't know if it was really for Shinji's sake she blew herself up. She explicitly says she wont let it happen when she realizes her heart's desire to become one with Shinji. Then finally it's actually Gendo's image she sees before 'sploding.

Oh, I guess I should tie something in about Rebuild since this is the thread for it. Um, the situation's different this time. Rei reciprocates Shinji's kindness and becomes a damsel in distress instead of it being complete self sacrifice in a general sense.

I agree. actually, I agree with your whole post. I still like how Rei's character was handled in NME, but I still agree with the points your whole post. But I also think that the reason why it also works in 2.22 were for the different reasons, which I already listed above.

[Warren Peace]

Not quite, but the 'minimization' of certain characters and their arcs makes things feel off balance to me. But actually, I take that back. Because Rei doesn't really factor into the character interaction side of the story much either. In fact, she's off camera for much of the movie baking a cake or something. Then she's suddenly this big deal at the end. What, because she said something next to a fish tank and liked a bowl of soup? Even when his pals were playing up his big dinner with Rei he was kind of just like "Duh, what? Oh right. Yeah, I guess so, huh."

Wait, what is this movie?

It's a sequel to another movie. If saying something "next to a fish tank" really summed up Shinji and Rei's entire relationship, you'd have a point. But there's a whole other film to explain why "she's suddenly this big deal at the end".

[GasmaskAvenger]

Rei reciprocates Shinji's kindness and becomes a damsel in distress instead of it being complete self sacrifice in a general sense.

which is rendered that way due to what happens when Shinji pulls off his magic act to save her

he more or less rendered her an accidental damsel in distress (which to the extent in context, she's hardly a dumbass in distress, it's just Shinji's brass actions that make it look like that)

[Sailor Star Dust]

her an accidental damsel in distress (which to the extent in context, she's hardly a dumbass in distress, it's just Shinji's brass actions that make it look like that)

Considering Rei was attempting to sucide-bomb during the 10th Angel battle, I agree with this.

Rei was the one telling Shinji that she was fine staying within the Angel (either due to Rei having clones and or disregard for her own life due to that, dunno. Probably a combination of both.), but Shinji was the one who stubbornly refused to accept that Rei was effectively gone and acted extremely brass/shut off his brain (consequences be damned, screw myself and screw the world!) to save her.

[Warren Peace]

Yeah, she only became a "damsel in distress" for doing something pretty gutsy, so it's not like they made her look weak or anything.

[Seele00TextOnly]

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[Sailor Star Dust]

Rei has an additional motivation: Personal reasons this time around (for Shinji) compared to Episode 19 where it was her blindly following orders (actually, going against orders with how Nerv and Gendo freaked out) to stop the Angel.

[Seele00TextOnly]

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[Sailor Star Dust]

Hence the accusation that the writing and scripting is cheap. I... I thought I made it pretty clear what I meant.

I know very well what you wrote, I'm saying I disagree with you.

IMO, it's not cheap when Rei actually has a reason for fighting because she's gradually becoming close to Shinji. Giving Rei a personal reason to fight strengthens the reason behind of why she's fighting in that scene, I think. I mean, does Episode 19 even give any rationale (besides attempting to destroy Zeruel) behind Rei's suicide-bombing attempt when it's obvious Nerv doesn't want her to do that?