Retconning in Rebuild?

[Neil-T]

What are folks' views on whether retconning could have happened in Rebuild?

Take the contradictions between the end of 2.22 and the world seen in 3.33, added to the fan debate over Near Third Impact versus actual Third Impact, and the rumour that production on 3.0 was restarted from scratch. Could Anno have changed the setting and removed Kaworu's post-credits stoppage of Third Impact from the story?

Given that the post-credits 'preview' is quite possibly a write-off, can we absolutely rule this out?


This topic originated in another forum with this post and subsequent replies:

Ah, retconning... That would put the cat among the pigeons!

[Neil-T]

The "stinger" sequence is part of the movie. It is BUILT UP TO and cannot casually be removed.

I overall agree with Reichu, but let me provide some counter-argument all the same.

They show the Spear of Cassius on the Moon. They show Kaworu hanging out with Mark.06.

The things that 2.22's post-credits sequence revolves around are the very things that have such puzzlingly minor roles to play in 3.33. The Spear of Cassius is noted only by its absence, and Mark.06 is out of the picture before we even got to see it move (barring its twitching and convulsing after the Spears are pulled out).

It could almost be taken as writing them out of the story after a change of direction by Anno. The post-credits sequence is the main obstacle to this, but at the same time would also be the easiest part to carve away from the main body of the movie. As in "If only I hadn't included that last scene..."

[Reichu]

What are folks' views on whether retconning could have happened in Rebuild?

Certain fans didn't get the film they wanted, and the film they got doesn't completely make sense without the fourth installment, therefore... retconning!

Removing the stinger fixes absolutely nothing and just makes everything into a much bigger mess. Careful examination of 3.33 indicates that something of significance happened during the time skip -- the actual Third Impact, distinct from the Near 3I we were shown at the end of 2.22.

Near Third Impact
Where: Geofront surface, extending upward
Players: Eva-01 / Shinji, 10th Angel, Eva-00's core / Rei

Third Impact
Where: Central Dogma (epicenter)
Players: Lilith, Mark.06 (autonomous), 12th Angel

Note how we go from 10th Angel to 12th. There was a time gap between these two events. Clearly, Eva-01 was not Impacting that whole time...

[BlueBasilisk]

The things that 2.22's post-credits sequence revolves around are the very things that have such puzzlingly minor roles to play in 3.33. The Spear of Cassius is noted only by its absence, and Mark.06 is out of the picture before we even got to see it move (barring its twitching and convulsing after the Spears are pulled out).

It could almost be taken as writing them out of the story after a change of direction by Anno. The post-credits sequence is the main obstacle to this, but at the same time would also be the easiest part to carve away from the main body of the movie. As in "If only I hadn't included that last scene..."

The Spear of Cassius was critical to Kaworu's plans, though. It was supposed to be there and was missing through some manner of chicanery. I don't think Mark.06 was written out so much as it had fulfilled its role in the grand game and Seele no longer had any need for it except to hold the 12th Angel until Unit 13 was ready. Unit 13 is the only Eva that matters in the end. All the others are just there to make preparations for its ascension. It sucks that we never get to see Mark.06 in action, but the story skipped past the part where it was relevant. I hope it gets a flashback in 3.0+1.0.

There were clearly changes from the trailer that followed 2.0, but that was true for the trailer after 1.0 too. Several of the cuts in the latter half of the trailer aren't present in the final movie and the scene of Mari looking at birds was actually recycled from the trailer because they thought she needed an extra scene.

[Arcadia's legacy]

the scene of Mari looking at birds was actually recycled from the trailer because they thought she needed an extra scene.

Correct me if i'm wrong for i haven't seen Ha in a while, but does Zeruel's attack begin shortly after that? It could explain why there's such a large flock, they're all fleeing from the Angel

[BlueBasilisk]

That would have been a better place for it, but no. It's after Unit 03 leaves America but before it arrives in Japan, sandwiched between the scene where Shinji gets ice cream with Touji and Kensuke and the scene where Gendo and Seele have a roundtable about the lost Evas.

[Arcadia's legacy]

Outside of having to give Mari an extra scene, could there be any other way for it to be apart of the story?

[ElMariachi]

The Spear of Cassius was critical to Kaworu's plans, though. It was supposed to be there and was missing through some manner of chicanery. I don't think Mark.06 was written out so much as it had fulfilled its role in the grand game and Seele no longer had any need for it except to hold the 12th Angel until Unit 13 was ready.

Actually, by the way SEELE were talking about Mark.06 being the "true Evangelion" and its birth alongside Lilith's resurrection being the conditions for their Instrumentality to happen, I think that Mark.06 was the key for there plan, the Eva that would trigger and guide Instrumentality, and that EVA-01 was the one that they didn't needed .(or at least they found a replacement for it that wasn't under Gendo's control)
I think that EVA-13 was never supposed to exist in the first place, but after the complete disaster that happened with the 12th Angel and Lilith's death, they had to adapt their plans, hence EVA-13 created as a replacement for Mark.06.

[BlueBasilisk]

^Ah, but there's the thing. Seele never says Mark.06 is the True Evangelion. Fuyutsuki speculates that it is and that's not an unreasonable conclusion to reach considering how secretive they are about it.

I agree that Eva 13 most likely was not Seele's intention during 2.0. Gendo and Seele both seemed certain that they were near the end and it's a little ridiculous to make that claim when the centerpiece of your whole plan is still a decade and a half from being constructed.

I think what happened is that the True Evangelion was supposed to be the Unit 08 seen in the trailer (or possibly 7 since Mari's Eva is 08 now) was going to be the original True Evangelion with Mark.06 acting in a similar role to Mark.09. It would carry out the "necessary rituals" that were to precede Lilith's resurrection and the True Eva's birth, and then the other Eva would swoop in and claim the prize. But evidently something went belly up with that plan and they had to try again with Unit 13. I'm mostly basing that speculation on the confirmation of at least two more Evas in the trailer, the Key of Neb being "kept as a backup," and Kaji's comment that Unit 01 awakened before the others were present/ready. At that point. Mark.06 was the only known surviving Eva that wasn't present.

Eva 01 might have been the bad apple that spoiled their plan for so long. Gendo is sure Seele knows he plans to awaken Unit 01 and Kaworu doesn't seem fussed about having to stop it, but if Seele had to deploy Mark.06 before they intended to and the Spear of Cassius was being used to seal Unit 01, then that could have lead to Mark.06 being killed prematurely by the 12th Angel. And if Shinji was asleep in there the whole time and Seele couldn't get him to come out to meet with Kaworu, then their plan was completely dead in the water.

[ElMariachi]

^
Well, EVA-13 was one of the "surviving ADAMs" and about to carry out Instrumentality for SEELE, and Mark.06 is also one of the ADAMs (what else it could be?), so for me it's clear that 14 years ago Mark.06 was supposed to carry out SEELE's Instrumentality, and its unfortunate destruction led to SEELE having to make a plan B, hence building EVA-13 from another of the surviving ADAMs.

Remember that even without the LoC, Fuyutsuki said at the end of 3.0 that SEELE came very close to victory, meaning that SEELE don't need the LoC for their version of Instrumentality, only the LoL. Which logically would mean that only Kaworu needed a LoC for his plans, whatever they were.

[Reichu]

Mark.06's face being fastidiously covered only really makes sense to me if it was Seele's "true Evangelion". It and Lilith were their gods, and one mustn't look upon the face of God. I imagine preview!Eva-08 as originally belonging to a much more condensed version of the story line we ultimately got. Mark.06 would have been disposed of onscreen (possibly without an accompanying Impact...) and Seele's hand forced in collaborating with Gendo to produce a successor Eva. The "anchor" on 08's head isn't terribly subtle, and doesn't make much sense unless the Ikari family had a big thumb in that pie.

[BlueBasilisk]

^That's certainly possible too. The plots Gendo and Seele are playing against each other are vague enough right now that just about anything could have been within the scope of "The Plan." And our primary source of information (Kaworu) being an unreliable narrator only makes things muddier.

On the subject of retcons, if Anno had hypothetically decided to retcon the ending of 2.0 to change Mark.06's introduction, wouldn't it be more like him to recut 2.22 with the relevant scenes altered and put that back out as a director's cut or some such? It never seemed like he had an issue tinkering with the series before when he wanted to make adjustments.

[Gendo'sPapa]

If there's going to be any retconning of Rebuild it will likely happen with new cuts of the film released around/after Final hits theaters.

I would not be surprised in the least if the creative decided to do one final re-edit of the four films so they closer flow together in some of the smaller details. Add a scene in Film 1 that sets up something in Film 4. Adjust Kaworu's dialogue in Film 2 here so it works better when referenced in Film 3 here. Etc etc. Kind of like how the Director's Cuts of Episodes 21-24 more successfully set up The End of Evangelion.

I'm sure they can could come up with a new cute naming series for the franchise. Though I'd be afraid it would be adding another number. 1.111. 2.222. 3.333. 3.333+1.111.

[Neil-T]

Personally, I just can't buy into the idea that production on 3.0 was restarted from scratch. To scrap already produced animation is too extravagant a waste of time and money, surely. Also, Sadamoto's designs for the new characters and for the familiar faces 14 years older are just too good to have been put together in any kind of a rush. Likewise for the detail of the Wunder and the internal mechanics of its bridge.

I'm sure many changes of heart were had over the developmental period, but this would regard the films to come, not the ones already made

I'm interested to know: what are people's views on the concept of an off-screen Third Impact during a time skip? I mean, do you think this was always going to be a centrepiece of Anno's retelling right from the earliest planning stages? Or was the Impact shown in 2.22 originally intended as the definitive Third Impact but then retrospectively renamed Near Third Impact?

And to that end, was the 'preview' of 3.0 therefore simply a hoax to throw viewers off the scent? Or originally a genuine outline of the next film?

In other words, has the intended perception of prior events been 'retconned'?

[Asuka Shikinami Langley]

It really took quite sometime to release 3.33 on blu-ray

I think the reason why the scrapped the theatre production was because they thought the dub wasn't done well enough.

I have the blu-ray but i still need to watch just been busy with everyday things lol