What defines an Eva in Q?

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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Postby ElMariachi » Wed Oct 15, 2014 2:23 pm

^
Again, the resident soul rule don't seem to apply to the NTE Evas, the only confirmed person trapped inside an Eva are Yui and Rei II inside EVA-01.
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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Wed Oct 15, 2014 4:35 pm

Although, there was a debate a while back that the souls in the Mk.04 units were the people who died in the explosion of Eva-04 back in 2.22. I'll post the old threads when I find them.

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Postby unitM » Sat Oct 18, 2014 10:37 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:^
Again, the resident soul rule don't seem to apply to the NTE Evas, the only confirmed person trapped inside an Eva are Yui and Rei II inside EVA-01.
I don't think that's a fair conclusion. I think it's a lot more safe to say that the resident soul rule applies to NTE with some exceptions. Yui basically confirms it for Unit 01, and 02 is clearly seen being reconfigured before Mari pilots it. That scene suggests to us that cores do need to be reconfigured according to the pilot's needs, for some reason. The 02 evidence certainly doesn't confirm the theory but it does provide evidence that fits snuggly in.

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Postby Reichu » Sat Oct 18, 2014 10:52 pm

I miss the days when Evas were called Evas because they were made from something called Adam.

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Postby unitM » Sat Oct 18, 2014 10:57 pm

Back in NGE, all Evas were Adam-material, with the exception of 01, right?

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Postby El Squibbonator » Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:27 pm

Right.
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Postby Mbryo » Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:59 pm

Evangelion Mark 04 does qualify as an eva in a sense. They're angellic in nature, can deploy an AT Field, and they're (possibly) controlled by Lilim.
What's curious is that from Wille's perspective, Mark 09 does not seem to qualify as a proper evangelion unit. While Kaworu refers to it as an evangelion, Wille individuals insist on calling it an 'Adam's Vessel', and they never refer to it as an evangelion. We can also see that Wille and Seele has conflicting views on the definition of an evangelion, when Shinji talks with Misato before his escape. When the battleships attack Mark 09, Shinji asks Misato why they are attacking an evangelion. Misato replies that they are destroying Nerv's Evas, which means that Nerv's Evas are something different from the normal Evas that Wille uses.

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Postby ElMariachi » Sun Oct 19, 2014 12:54 pm

View Original PostunitM wrote:I don't think that's a fair conclusion. I think it's a lot more safe to say that the resident soul rule applies to NTE with some exceptions. Yui basically confirms it for Unit 01, and 02 is clearly seen being reconfigured before Mari pilots it. That scene suggests to us that cores do need to be reconfigured according to the pilot's needs, for some reason. The 02 evidence certainly doesn't confirm the theory but it does provide evidence that fits snuggly in.

No, the resident soul rule in NGE was that a pilot could only synchronize with an Eva whose core has a soul related to the pilot: Rei could pilot 00 (because part of her soul was in it) and 01 (since she's a clone of Yui), but can't pilot EVA-02, 03 or whichever else, same for Shinji, who can pilot 01, but not any other, and same for Asuka and 02 and Toji and 03.
Kaworu is an exception in that he can control any ADAM-based Eva due to him having ADAM's soul.

But in NTE any pilot can go pilot any EVA: Asuka is seen piloting 02 and 03, Mari changes twice of Eva (05, the 02, then 08), even Shinji is seen piloting 01 and then 13, even when Kaworu's synchronization with 13 is cut.
The only exception is EVA-01, more than probably because of Yui being the control system picky about who can pilot her.
But all the other times, the core seems to be only a big bio-computer holding the pilot's data to synchronize with it, and can be reconfigured at will to accommodate for another pilot. Maybe the fact that in NTE the Eva cores are removable is to symbolize that.
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Postby unitM » Mon Oct 20, 2014 11:44 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:No, the resident soul rule in NGE was that a pilot could only synchronize with an Eva whose core has a soul related to the pilot: Rei could pilot 00 (because part of her soul was in it) and 01 (since she's a clone of Yui), but can't pilot EVA-02, 03 or whichever else, same for Shinji, who can pilot 01, but not any other, and same for Asuka and 02 and Toji and 03.
Kaworu is an exception in that he can control any ADAM-based Eva due to him having ADAM's soul.

But in NTE any pilot can go pilot any EVA: Asuka is seen piloting 02 and 03, Mari changes twice of Eva (05, the 02, then 08), even Shinji is seen piloting 01 and then 13, even when Kaworu's synchronization with 13 is cut.
The only exception is EVA-01, more than probably because of Yui being the control system picky about who can pilot her.
But all the other times, the core seems to be only a big bio-computer holding the pilot's data to synchronize with it, and can be reconfigured at will to accommodate for another pilot. Maybe the fact that in NTE the Eva cores are removable is to symbolize that.
I'm pretty sure any evidence behind Unit 00 having a soul is shakey at best.

The resident soul theory is a little more specific than you make it out to be. Shinji piloted 01 because his mom was in it, not because just any soul that he was somehow connected to was. That's what the sync ratio is. That's also why, several times in NGE, the unit operates with it's own will to protect it's pilot. You know, because the pilot is the child.

Confirmation of what I'm talking about can also be seen in the case of Asuka in EoE, where her sync ratio is off the charts, and she, unsurprisingly, is talking about her mom the entire time. Half her mom is in 02, and upon realizing this, she experiences true control of the Eva.

Toji, like 00, was never really confirmed to have his mommy in the unit. It's just kinda assumed because that's the rule. It's not really stated though.

Really? Any pilot can pilot any Eva? Because I haven't seen Asuka in 01 yet. I haven't seen Rei in 02 either. The only time I've seen weird things happen with the Eva units is when there were exceptions to the rule of the resident soul theory.

Asuka is seen piloting 02 and 03

03 was infected unit. I wouldn't even bother considering it as part of the rule. Any exceptions or Eva units that are out of the ordinary really should be left out, since we don't have all the details on them. We don't even know if Asuka "piloted" 03 either. Ritsuko states that her sync ratio is reversing or something while she was in it. If she wasn't synced with the unit, was Asuka really piloting it?

Which leaves us with 02. And we know 02 is Asuka's unit.

Mari changes twice of Eva (05, the 02, then 08)

05 doesn't count. Again, it was a provisional unit. The details behind it are a mystery. You can't seriously use that as valid evidence.

02: Core explicitly reconfigured.

08: No comment. Though you are right - it is her 3rd unit - again, we don't know enough about it to judge. She does seem a lot more committed to 08 though.

Shinji is seen piloting 01 and then 13

01 is Shinji's mom and 13 gives us a lot of hints that Yui is involved somewhere. Firstly, the colour scheme of 13 and 01 are incredibly similar. Secondly, 13 allows Shinji to pilot it. If we're following resident soul theory, that wouldn't happen without mummy(or some other special figure not revealed to us). Thirdly, there are explicit images of Yui's involvement with 13(Yui's Lilith head, Yui's folded arms, the angel core that expands into the shape of a giant Yui/Rei head). Ruling Yui out of unit 13 in spite of the blatant evidence of her involvement might be a bit headstrong. If her soul is any way in 13, it explains how Shinji is able to move it, therefore not separating from the resident soul theory.

Basically, the theory still stands as it should, and it only doesn't in instances where we aren't provided enough explanation. A provisional unit that obviously serves some sort of background purpose that is alluded to but not explained in one ounce of detail shouldn't be used to say that the entire parent-child Evangelion-pilot(respectively) relationship should be thrown out.

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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Mon Oct 20, 2014 11:55 pm

It doesn't seem quite right to take Units 05 and 08 and disregard them in figuring all this out just because we don't know anything about them. If anything, it should be enough to make us take a step back and think to ourselves before throwing ourselves at conclusions when we've just admitted that there are big things that we don't know. Universe rules aren't rules if we see them broken multiple times.

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Postby ElMariachi » Tue Oct 21, 2014 8:44 am

@ unitM: in NGE, an Eva needs a soul inside the core to function, that's one of the few core rules that we are 100% sure about, no soul inside the Eva = non-functioning Eva, you basically have a giant piece of meat and armor.

From here for a human pilot to synch with an Eva, his mother's soul has to be inside the core of said Eva. (no confirmation if it works with fathers or sibling)

That's why by logic, Toji's mom should be inside EVA-03, especially since it was noted in the series that all the members of class 2-A, a class of potential Eva pilots, are orphans from their mother.

Really? Any pilot can pilot any Eva? Because I haven't seen Asuka in 01 yet. I haven't seen Rei in 02 either. The only time I've seen weird things happen with the Eva units is when there were exceptions to the rule of the resident soul theory.

The fact we didn't see Rei piloting EVA-02 in NTE doesn't mean that she can't do it, Mari could pilot it just fine after all.
EVA-01 is the only exception to the rule because Yui is its control system and picky about who can pilot her.


03 was infected unit. I wouldn't even bother considering it as part of the rule.

Ritsuko and her staff didn't know that, yet were totally confident that Asuka could pilot EVA-03 just fine, the fact Bardiel hijacked it has nothing to do with it.

05 doesn't count. Again, it was a provisional unit. The details behind it are a mystery. You can't seriously use that as valid evidence.

It had an organic head and torso, and could raise an AT Field, so it had a core, and was an Eva. The provisional part was because it lacked its limbs, nothing more.

02: Core explicitly reconfigured.

And you just debunked your own theory that the resident soul rule is still valid in NTE.


As for Yui being inside EVA-13, sorry but that's very shaky at best: seriously because its head and paint job is similar? Mark.09 was almost a carbon copy of EVA-00, yet 00 never was an ADAM's Vessel. As for Lilith's head and 12th Angel turning into the same head, the script explicitly explains that it's Rei's head, not Yui's.
Finally how the hell could had Yui's soul be extracted from EVA-01 without anyone noticing, and put into EVA-13 without SEELE protesting, and more importantly while Yui don't want to get out of EVA-01 and Fuyutsuki states that she's still inside EVA-01!
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Postby unitM » Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:10 pm

A soul needs to be in a unit in order for it to function, yeah. But in order for the pilot to synchronize with the unit, it has to be connected with that soul, in some way. That is the essence of the word synchronization. If there is a "break," there is no synchronization, and people share their strongest ties with their parents(or substitute parental figures).

By logic, I agree, Toji's mom should be in 03. But from the events that transpired, we know that 03 isn't exactly an ordinary Eva activation. We don't even know the sync ratio on it, let alone whether Toji was in control of the Eva. In the same way, we can see this with Asuka in NTE. In fact, we see the sync signals reverse just as Asuka gets hit by the angel. So what I'm trying to spotlight is that both cases are not ordinary and we don't even know whether the movement of 03 is in response to the pilot's own sync or if it's entirely orchestrated by an angel. Thus, the parental resident soul theory is not out the window. These are isolated and strange cases to begin with. If your evidence for a soul in a unit is AT fields, neither had them.

Mari piloted it fine after reconfiguration - again, another explanation which presents a strange case.

Eva 01 is not an exception to a rule either. When Gendou rallies a wounded Rei into 01, it's suggested somewhere in the background that reconfiguration is necessary. (If I remember)

Ritsuko: Note taken, but again, we have no idea whether the Eva was actually being piloted by someone. Plus, there was a lot of buildup around the Bardiel incident. At one point, we literally see Bardiel being airdropped into a mountainous region that has an ominous blue-purple glow. I wouldn't be surprised if Ritsuko simply did not know.

While your points on 05 are valid, you are forgetting one key point, which was furthered by Kaji: 05 might have been blown up on purpose, according to some plan. That immediately suggests that there are things going on behind the scenes that we don't know about. You can't chalk up 05 being provisional simply to it's arms and legs; provisional, by definition, is something to be used, and it's alluded to that 05 serves a function not revealed to us.

I don't see how reconfiguring a core(changing a unit's soul to suit that of the pilot) debunks the residence of a soul in an Eva. You're certainly throwing off my own line of reasoning. A core being reconfigured could very well be a soul being swapped out for another, which fits well into the theory.

The colour scheme is important dude. An Eva can literally be painted any colours. This goes for 00 too. Yet in both cases, they were painted the colours of the original Eva units, and, unsurprisingly, they are also piloted by the same people who piloted the original ones.

Rei/Yui who cares dude. They're the same soul. Semantics should be pushed aside here.

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Postby pwhodges » Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:36 pm

View Original PostunitM wrote:Rei/Yui who cares dude. They're the same soul.

Eh? Where did that come from?
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Postby ElMariachi » Wed Oct 22, 2014 3:32 am

@unitM: You're grasping at straws here, to the point it's not even funny anymore.

For for the NGE part, Touji and EVA-03: Ritsuko knew about the resident soul rule, class 2-A was created with only people who could potentially become pilots as its members, meaning that NERV have a compatible soul for each and everyone of them. Touji said that he lost his mother. So her soul must have been placed inside EVA-03's core to make him pilot it, that's simple logic! Why would Rits pour Touji in an Eva that he couldn't pilot since she didn't installed a compatible soul inside it, that's completely stupid!


Now for the NTE part: EVA-05 blew-up, if there was a soul inside its core, it disappeared alongside the 3rd Angel and all of Bethany Base in that fuckhuge explosion.
As for Asuka and EVA-03, same thing that with Touji in NGE: why would Ritsuko put Asuka in an Eva she know she won't be able to pilot due to some resident soul rule? If they made her test it, then it means that they knew that she could pilot it!
Mari being able to pilot EVA-02 with just a simple reconfiguration of the core (and not a soul swap or something, just a simple change in data) seals the deal: the resident soul rule doesn't apply in NTE.
And that's reinforced even further when Mari turns out with yet another Eva in Q!

View Original PostunitM wrote:The colour scheme is important dude. An Eva can literally be painted any colours. This goes for 00 too. Yet in both cases, they were painted the colours of the original Eva units, and, unsurprisingly, they are also piloted by the same people who piloted the original ones.

Well yeah, Mark.09 was at EVA-00's color and pilot by an Ayanami Type, that was made on purpose to trick Shinji into believing that it was Unit 00 and "his" Rei that came to rescue him, painting it green or putting Kaworu as the pilot would had defeated the purpose.

And again Gendo deciding to paint EVA-13 purple and put a horn on it doesn't hint at all about Yui being inside it, it could be simply to put Shinji more at ease with an Eva that looks a little like the one he was piloting before, or maybe Anno decided to do it to make the Shinji vs Asuka fight more impacting by paralleling Shinji fighting an Unit 02 controlled by Kaworu in NGE.

View Original PostunitM wrote:Rei/Yui who cares dude. They're the same soul. Semantics should be pushed aside here.

Now you're just being ridiculous.
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Postby Zoop » Wed Oct 22, 2014 8:25 am

Additionally, the resident souls are never mentioned in NTE. Just because it was true in NGE does not mean it's true in NTE (as with a lot of things that have changed).

There is one part of Q that could have confirmed resident soul theory, and it was Fuyutski's infodump. He told Shinji his mom is in Eva-01. But he did not use the word Soul at all! Instead he uses a vague and ambigious term like a Control System.

If there was a point to confirm souls in eva's, this was it, but he explicitly calls it something different.

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Postby unitM » Wed Oct 22, 2014 10:57 am

I don't mind grasping for straws man. This board is for the most part a speculation one. In situations like this, where we really don't have an end in mind but are just looking at possibilities, there's nothing wrong with taking the wrong path, knowing it might lead somewhere more bountiful.

I understand the class from 2-A thing, and I agree with what you're saying - there certainly is something to be said about all students from that class. However, you're jumping to an unsubstantiated conclusion if you're saying that Toji's mum is in 03. There is no hard evidence for that. Don't get me wrong, I'm with you there, I think that Toji's mum probably is in 03. But the fact is, there is no supreme proof for it.

Simple logic is this:
1 + 1 = 2

Jumping to a conclusion is this:
1 + 1 = 2, therefore 3 must exist

Just because something might be doesn't mean it is. It's a common mistake people, myself included, make.

Ritsuko is not the highest commander in NERV and SEELE either. Why would Ritsuko drop Touji or Asuka into an Eva? Maybe she was simply told to. There are plenty of times in the series where a decision is made against Ritsuko's opinion. Ritsuko for sure knows than we think she does but that doesn't give her clearance to make intense decisions above NERV, SEELE, IPEA, etc.

The only thing I was pointing out about 05 was something you clearly overlooked. You attributed the provisional part of the unit to simply having a different patch of arms and legs. That really doesn't seem like the case; Kaji points out on-screen that 05's destruction might have been a set up. This follows the definition of provisional and doesn't even remotely attribute it to 05 having some artificial limbs. That's why I was saying I think we should separate 05 from the rule, simply because there's not only some information being hidden from us about it, but that information is also directly alluded to by someone more knowledgeable than us(Kaji).

If there was a soul in 05, it blew up. Yes, I won't challenge that. The explosion was so large it wiped out the angel pillars, so there's no doubt that the core was taken out too. However, consider this:

Unit 05 was labeled a provisional unit. It had the emblem of provisional unit tattooed all over it. When Mari starts up the unit, we see and hear prov. unit all over the place. Essentially, it was labeled prov. far ahead of time, not just when Mari put it into motion.

Now, with this in mind, that 05 was designated provisional far before it's activation, do you really think that whoever was responsible for 05 had no idea that it would blow up? And if whatever organization knew it was going to blow up, do you not think they also were aware that the soul was going to go boom too?

Let's take a look at the value of a soul for a second. A soul itself, in the series, is actually pretty worthless. Everyone has one, and if we expand our definition to AT fields, every organism has an ATF. To have an ATF, you need a soul, so it's not a big leap to say all organisms have souls.

However, the value of a soul is hiked up dramatically when you take into account contact experiments. Contact experiments aren't the easiest thing to muster up(see: NGE Asuka). Putting a human soul into a giant robot for another to pilot is some pretty intense stuff. Ritsuko even says they won't let anything happen to Asuka because she's a special being. This is a value judgment on her part to show us the value of Asuka(and an Eva's) soul.

Now, with all that in mind... do you really think whatever organizations involved in the activation and detonation of 05 would let it go to waste so easily? An Eva unit doesn't just have value in the sense that it's a rare thing but it certainly has monetary value as well. Some organizations undoubtedly have a vested interest in the production of units, including the implant of a soul into it.

This is why I feel 05 is a different case than the rest of the "normal" Evas. No organization in their right mind would let an Eva explode the way it did. But it happened that way regardless. And on top of that, the unit was designated as provisional to begin with, even going so far as to be equipped with a stronger emergency escape system that Mari uses. If 05 was a planned explosion, and a functioning Eva unit is very valuable to begin with, don't you think someone, somewhere would have a way of preserving whatever soul was inside - similar to the way Fuyutsuki explains Rei to Shinji in Q - in order to protect one's interest in it? People and organizations have a responsibility to protect their own interests.

To answer your question with Asuka and 03, I will bring up the possibility that Ritsuko was getting her orders from above. The choice wasn't entirely hers to say who goes into and comes out of an Eva.

We don't know any core config. details dude. We know that cores are swapped out, sure, but we don't know what reconfiguration even means. We shouldn't pass judgment on something just because it doesn't stand out to us. Plus, and as other users have suggested, what if Mari is related to the soul in 02? Suddenly, resident soul theory fits again.

Okay, so Mark.09 was painted Eva's 00 colour to trick Shinji. I can back that. But how do you explain Mark.09 entering Level EEE with Shinji then? Shinji, at that point, really did not give a fuck about Rei. If anything, he was in a semi-repulsed state, after what Fuyutsuki told him.

@Zoop Resident souls are mentioned in NTE here (Fuyutsuki: Yui is 01's control system)
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Postby Reichu » Wed Oct 22, 2014 12:57 pm

*looks at thread title*

*wonders what the hell is going on*

*misses her Admin Voice

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Postby Viethra » Wed Oct 22, 2014 12:58 pm

View Original PostRosenakahara wrote:gendo needed both Rei and Shinji to activate N3I judging by his dialogue so she must have something very important in her :P


N3I Shinji+Zeruel+Unit 01+Rei

4I Shinji+12th+Eva 13+Kaworu

You need a lilin, an angel , an Adam's vessel, and a SOL clone?

I find the term "Adam's Vessel" odd because to me vessel denotes the body for a soul. The overwhelming implication is that it's the armor sealing an Adams body. The other thing that bothers me is how Kaworu is heavily implied to be an Adams soul bound to a human clone, but there's only one of him. 1 soul for 4 bodies? Either that is a case or Kaworu has 3 siblings. Also, an eva that is Adam(s)'s body is quite a leap from the classic Adam/Lilith clone concept. It seems so wrong for Unit 01 to be a white giant considering how she's thought to be a Lilith offspring. Are we going too far by assuming Adams vessels contain Adams?

Maybe they are the vessels of Adams DNA or S2 engines or something. S2 engine are available to Unit 01, a stated Adams vessel, and the MP Evas, which have trans-formative features (wings, lances) and can operate decapitated, and Mark 09, a stated Adams Vessel, can grow a backpack and operate without a head. (These 3 also use the dummy system, or host Rei Q, a false Rei, much like that system. Unit 01 runs dummy before achieving S2/Adams Vessel though)
And to all the children...

Congratulations!

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Postby Zoop » Thu Oct 23, 2014 5:18 am

View Original PostunitM wrote:@Zoop Resident souls are mentioned in NTE here (Fuyutsuki: Yui is 01's control system)
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There are no souls mentioned. They decided to explicitly call it something else: a Control System. So it's not the same as a soul, or they would have called it that. Not once is an eva's soul mentioned in NTE.
We only have NGE as an example for this theory to hold any ground.

The change from 1 adam, to adams (4 right?), the adam's vessels, having more than 1 impact occuring etc etc. I don't think souls (other than the pilots) have anything to do with Eva's in this continuation. At least, there is not a single shred of evidence for it (as usual, Eva-01 seems to be the exception, it does hold someone, but this time as a control system, not a soul, but what about ReiII? ah well, different topic I guess).

So to bring it back to topic, what does define an Eva? Maybe we should make a comparison what defined an Eva in NGE, and which of those things no longer define an eva. I'll try to make a start:

NGE:
Holds a resident soul
Is cloned from the body of Adam (with the exception of Eva01)
Is made from PWM like an angel is.

NTE:
Is not confirmed to hold a soul
Is not confirmed to be cloned from Adam
PWM no longer seems to exist.


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