Do we need to know about the timeskip?

[ElMariachi]

Well, we go back to the same problem and the root of this topic's question : we don't enough of what WILLE know and think of the events 14 years prior to make more than assumptions and theories.

That's why some events of the time skip, namely what happened between N3I and the 12th Angel attack, need to be explained. WILLE's reaction to said events could (especially how their opinion of Shinji changed and what they came to think of him) be either shown to us in the slash-back, or explained via some dialogs.

[Nuclear Lunchbox]

So, from what I'm hearing, we have three basic options.

• Predjudices fly through Nerv following N3I, and Shinji is assumed the pariah of fucking humanity. 3I only serves to heighten everybody's hate towards him.
  
  
• There are shreds of doubt as to whether or not Shinji caused N3I on purpose, but 3I was so muddled that it is reasonable to assume Shinji did it.
  
  
• Nobody drew any conclusions immediately (rationality in the movieverse? UNBELIEVABLE) but evidence was misinterpreted and Shinji was once again deemed a pariah.

Jorno, you and El are really breathing new life into this thread. I'm loving where it's going.

[ElMariachi]

So in short, we have three levels of prejudices leading to how Shinji's fault is perceived : blind and irrational hatred were everything that happens is deemed his faul; the second where no one had any clue of what the hell happened but they needed a responsible to blame, and coincidentally Shinji is the one who triggered the previous near Impact and is dead, so they picked him to blame; and the third proposition is just a tragic misunderstanding.

Eh, all three propositions are plausible for the moment.

[Nuclear Lunchbox]

It just says as to how much we really don't know that we can logically consider three possibilities that have such drastic differences in the events and thought patterns that would require them to grow.

[ElMariachi]

Well, being so much in the dark was the only way that the clusterfuck of poor communication that was Q could work!

[Nuclear Lunchbox]

I guess we're in the dark about characters being in the dark.

[Ray]

However you slice it, Shinji is more than likely doomed. He literally has the world against him.

[xyz346]

However you slice it, Shinji is more than likely doomed. He literally has the world against him.

Completely disregarding that the preview for 4.0 states that Shinji will find hope?

And in any case, it's not like there's any conclusive evidence to suggest that everyone is against him, considering that the only source who claims this is possibly an unreliable narrator.

[Ray]

Remember the next time preview for 3.0 in 2.0? How that turned out to be a big fat piece of trollbait? I genuinely hope for a happy ending. But I don't see how one can come about aside from a Dieu ex Machina.

I'd say Misato and The Crew of the Wunders treatment of him is evidence enough. But again, holding out my final judgement until 4.0

poor kid. . .All this guilt on his soul and he can't even legally drink yet.

[Nuclear Lunchbox]

Hey, we got eyepatch Asuka.

[xyz346]

Oh I most certainly do remember. And? Just because it happened once doesn't mean it will happen again.

Misato and the others certainly treated him coldly. But when I saw the film, I didn't see any of the disgust that many reviewers seem to depict WILLE as having. And of course, there's the fact that Misato doesn't kill Shinji when she has the chance...or that she actually promises to keep him safe (reinforced later on when we see she really was telling the truth about Rei)...or that she even whispers his name.

What matters is how Shinji progresses and responds now with what he knows. Does he simply wallow in despair, like some of the people on this board seem to think is the only way out? Or does he try to set things right, while taking into consideration the feelings of the people he cares about?

[Nuclear Lunchbox]

Here's a good thread on that subject.

[url]http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/14332/Why-didnt-Wille-just-kill-Shinji/[/url]

[Ray]

In a world where one cannot be forgiven, where the people you care about barely consider you a human being anymore, where you will always be reminded by everyone that it was your fault for someone they loved dying, where you will never be able to open up and be 100% honest with anyone out of fear of them rejecting you for your past, is there any alternative other than despair and bitterness?

Say what you will about if Misato still has feelings for him, the DSS Choker was way out of line! The Misato before the time skip would never have done something like that!

Asukas opinion of him appears to be disgust incarnate if you ask me. The rest of the crew are likely just keeping their emotions back for the sake of protocol. Asuka refers to him as a "brat". See doesn't see him as an equal or even a human anymore. She sees him as the kid who screwed humanity over for a woman.

I hope something we learn about the time skip gives us some hope, because I'm preparing for anything!

[xyz346]

Well, that's IF Shinji cannot be forgiven. Unless you can provide evidence that someone explicitly said "Shinji, I'll never ever forgive you! You're evil incarnate!", it's impossible to prove that it's hopeless.

Misato IS different from how she was when we last saw her 14 years ago. If 3.0 took place a few months after 4.0, then it might be more reasonable to think of this behavior as being outlandish, but Misato has had to deal with all sorts of things over the 14 years.

While Asuka is most certainly angry at him, factoring in the events of the Bardiel-incident and Shinji's actions in 3.33, she still asked for his help at the beginning and she still saves him at the end. There's always the possibility that they can mend fences in 4.0.

Unless you can show explicitly beyond a reasonable doubt that it is impossible for Shinji to be forgiven, there's always the probability that Shinji can earn redemption.

And back on topic...honestly, I think that it will be impossible to answer every question about the time skip. What really matters is information relevant to what Shinji's duty must be, whatever it is.

[ElMariachi]

@ xyz346 : Thank God at last another member who tries to be positive! I was beginning to think that it was an endangered species of members!

Although when you said that you didn't see any of the disgust WILLE seems to have against Shinji, well we do see them making bad faces when Shinji appeared in the Command Bridge, but it's impossible to pinpoint what exactly those expressions meant : disgust, hate, contempt, annoyance or even maybe fear.
The more expressive being Midori(we even see her frown and make a "tsk" when Shinji asked to pilot EVA-01 to help Asuka), while the rest of the crew simply coldly looked at him from the corner of the eye.
That scenes make it clear that Shinji has a bad reputation, but not exactly what kind of reputation : a childish brat that had nothing to do piloting an Eva or even being in the Wunder and almost killed them all 14 years ago in his immaturity, a monster no better than his father that was really rady to destroy the whole planet just to be reunited with his loved one, a petty and selfish asshole only thinking about himself and dismissing everyone else's feelings?

That ambiguity was probably intended to confuse Shinji (and the audience) as much as possible and incite him to ditch WILLE at first opportunity(said opportunity being Mark.09) and will have to be cleared in FINAL so Shinji knows what he have to make up for (on top of what he did in 3.0 of course) and how much effort he'll have to make for it.
And for that a flash-back about what happened between N3I and the 12th Angel attack, as well as the people who would later be a part of WILLE's reaction to it is necessary, or at least someone explaining to Shinji (and us) what was their reaction.


---

In a world where one cannot be forgiven, where the people you care about barely consider you a human being anymore, where you will always be reminded by everyone that it was your fault for someone they loved dying, where you will never be able to open up and be 100% honest with anyone out of fear of them rejecting you for your past, is there any alternative other than despair and bitterness?

Where the hell in the movie did you saw that!? We don't even know if the destruction of the world is his fault, or even if the world was destroyed to begin with, or what WILLE deems him responsible for, and the only source of information about that, Kaworu, is very unreliable!

And so WILLE were very cold and callous, well that's how military deal with any potential threat until it's clear that the supposed threat isn't one. Misato had a much more humane approach in her relationship with her subordinate, but 14 years of war against a merciless death cult and their ruthless madman of a right man forced her to take a more classical military doctrine.
That's sad, but as Asuka said in the interrogation room, that's how things are around here now.
That doesn't mean that they're a bunch of heartless monsters or are completely unable to show and feel kindness (Sakura is the living proof that they can), but sadly Shinji is a potential threat that came back from a state of absorption from which it was deemed impossible to come back, and absorbed withing a world-ending "god" no-less! On top of that, he was condemned for a serious fault 14 years ago and had to be sanctioned for it.

We don't know how the situation would had evolved had neo-NERV really never been interested on Shinji, maybe he would had spent some time in the brig, or brought to work for WILLE as some sort of "community service" until the war is over, get to know more the Wunder crew(and vice-versa) and improve his reputation little by little, showing them that he's a nice guy who happened to have the misfortune to be the son of Gendo Ikari and thus his most convenient tool to further his plans.
But alas, Mark.09 appeared and Shinji made his case worst with his later actions. Which doesn't mean that a reconciliation and general forgiveness is impossible, but probably much more difficult than in he scenario just aboce.

Speaking of Asuka, her behavior is a pretty typical Asuka-ish one, in "very angry" settling. So she manhandle him and calls him brat, and figure what : technically she's right, Shinji is a utterly clueless 14 years old kid manipulated like a puppet and who completely lost his marbles in front of the spears and almost triggered the end of the world because he refused to listen to others.
As for the manhandling, it's Asuka we're talking about, the girl whose first act upon seeing Shinji was to criticize the fact that he wasn't ready to counter Clockiel's attack and tripped him to check his environment awareness, who kicked him in the teeth for accidentally seeing her naked even though it was her fault, who hit a guy asking her out and barked more than she talked with Mari thorough 3.0. Asuka is someone who plays rough, that's part of who she is.

Say what you will about if Misato still has feelings for him, the DSS Choker was way out of line! The Misato before the time skip would never have done something like that!

The Misato before the time skip didn't had to deal with possible Angels in human form with the power to hack all of their electronics and kill everyone in her ship.
Misato needed a way to make sure that if "BM-03" wasn't Shinji but something akin to Kaworu and with hostile intents, she could destroy him without having to throw all of her forces at him and tear apart their ship in the fight.

I don't think that Misato even believed that she would had to ever use the detonator or threaten Shinji with it, if he was really Shinji : he hates piloting the Eva and wouldn't get into one unless convinced by people he trusts and neo-NERV is only interested in EVA-01. The DSS Choker is just a symbol of a punishment doubling as a fail-safe for the only scenario that Misato thought she could face : that "Shinji" is actually an angelic entity disguised as Shinji and biding his time to attack them, and even if he manages to kill Misato before she can detonate the DSS Choker, it'll do it automatically anyway once he begins to awake the Eva.

Taking that very important point into account, the only others alternatives were to either killing him before he awakes "to be on the sure side" or to imprison him completely restrained head to toe in a reinforced cell with lots of Angel-Sealing Pillars and guards pointing guns at his face. As hard a pill it's to shallow, the DSS Choker was actually the lesser of evils.

[Sachi]

Remember the next time preview for 3.0 in 2.0? How that turned out to be a big fat piece of trollbait?

No, not really. I remember a Next Time Preview for an episode that got skipped. Were we trolled? Yes. Was everything in the NTP for 3.0 invalid? I don't think so. Everything we see in the preview still could have potentially occurred during the skip, but 3.0 tells a story from a very narrow perspective and we have to wait until Final to see the larger picture of the post-3I (and now post N4I) conditions of the world.

[xyz346]

@ElMariachi: Thank you! In my opinion, there's no point to being completely negative about Q. It's not like being negative will somehow make 4.0 have a happier ending, right?

To clarify on what my original post meant...I didn't think that Shinji was hated to the extremes that many of the reviews of 3.33 depicted him as having. Before I watched the film, I read up several reviews. Many reviews jumped on the hate-train when talking about WILLE (particularly Misato and Asuka). I actually expected Shinji to be treated MUCH worse than he actually was! But when I actually watched it...I didn't see that. Was Shinji treated coldly? Yes. But I didn't think it was absolute hate.

[ElMariachi]

^
Exactly!
I admit that Shinji's treatment by WILLE was very cold, that they passive-aggressive dickishness was uncalled for, and their handling of the briefing could had been better (I still maintain that the reveal about the DSS Choker function came too early and that they should had started with the time skip and the fact NERV is an enemy of mankind, but since they believed that they all their time to explain everything, I can't totally blame them on that one), and you know what? Their behavior bite them back in the ass when it made Shinji mistrust them enough to be convinced by "Rei" to follow her to NERV, which later ended with a near-insane Shinji pulling out the spears and launching Fourth Impact in a desperate attempt to be forgiven.

But even then, most of the containment process was handled with pragmatism and professionalism, cold yes but professional nonetheless : Shinji surprisingly returned from being absorbed inside a godly abomination for 14 years, a state it's assumed impossible to come back from, and they now know that angelic beings with Lilin appearances are something possible, so they couldn't take the risk of an Angel roaming in the Wunder.

Finally, for guys that apparently consider him as the 21st century's Hitler, they showed some niceties : except the moment he arrived in the Command Bridge he wasn't cuffed from head to toe but free of his movements, had a Comprehension Briefing specially prepared for him to be explained what the hell is happening, had the fleet's two highest ranking officers personally giving said briefing and ready to answer any of his questions, gave him back his personal belongings (his SDAT, his having been ruined during his dive inside Zeruel's core) and even specially assigned him a very sympathetic medical officer!
I really doubt that a Hitler would had a tenth of that.

To conclude : was WILLE cold and harsh? Yes. Were they maybe too harsh? Probably. Was the passive-aggressiveness uncalled for? Certainly. But they were never cruel to him. The closest thing of a cruelty I could think of was when Misato told him that from now on he'll do nothing with an icy glare (that could be interpreted as contempt), but that's all.

Asuka's intervention in the interrogation room was pretty much Asuka being Asuka, and the fact Sakura too was freaking out during her outburst is a subtle sign that her behavior isn't supposed to be acceptable, although we sadly don't know enough about her character development and relationship with other characters during the time skip to explain why Misato and Ritsuko didn't reacted at all, but Mari's teasing about Asuka's reasons to go to see Shinji could imply that her outburst, while genuinely born from pent-up anger and grief, was also partly a facade to hide the true reasons that pushed her to go to see him, that maybe deep down she wanted to see him because she was actually glad that Shinji was alive... and because she had some pen-up anger and grief to vent-off, it's Asuka we're talking about!

[Ray]

Sorry if I came off as negative. Its just. . . extremely hard to be optimistic about Final given the setup from 3.0 . It really friggin' depressed me, and as a person who hates being depressed I just can't keep my feelings in.

It's not so much that being negative will make 4.0 a happier ending, its just that CAN it be a happy ending without it being a Dieu Ex Machina, or feeling like a copout? In other words, can it avoid being a bad film from a storytelling POV?

Example: I don't like Macbeth's ending, with the main character having turned into a tyrant, being abandoned by his friends and family, and being decapitated by one of his former friends. But the ending of Macbeth fits the story, because its a tragedy about one mans fall from grace. It wouldn't make sense for Macbeth to be forgiven and the play to end happily for him, it would be considered a bad copout of an ending if that were the case.

I don't necessarily disagree with downer endings as long as they make sense in the context of the work. But if Anno really is planning on a happy ending, I hope he has an extremely good plan. Because If he doesn't we're in a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. A downer ending we already got with EOE that most of us don't want to see again, or a rather unfitting happy ending that wont fit in with the setup in the rest of the films.

[Warren Peace]

How could things possibly turn out well for Luke at the end of Empire? After Two Towers, how could things possibly turn out well for Frodo? He's not getting that Ring even close to Mount Doom, obviously...