Loop Theories and How They Work

[qu4d]

No... this isn't about probability. I could reply to that later. But that has nothing to do with my question. You now said "move on" - but you didn't respond to my answer at all.

[pwhodges]

you didn't respond to my answer at all.

This one?

Why shouldn't Bagheera finally move on?

Move on from what? He's considered the evidence, in the manner I outlined (in the answer you discounted), and come to a view. He has pointed out weaknesses in other views, and asked for those supporting them to offer more solid evidence. Clearly he doesn't see any evidence forthcoming which might persuade him to change his view, and neither do you - but going on and on about it doesn't actually contribute to resolving that. The two of you disagree (and I've suggested a reason why, also in the answer you discounted), and there's an end of it.

[qu4d]

You outlined it (the reading of the title) and that's fine. But you aren't being a jerk about it. The title can be read in several ways - saying it has only one meaning is arrogant. And this is what he does - claiming that the title explicitely states that "you can not redo". That's just not true.

And regarding the timeloop... I am not keen on it. The only reason is to come up with an answer to the mystery of Kaworu. You think they met as children? That's fine. That's possible and I never argued with that. Never. But you guys do just that - attacking something and demanding evidence when this is impossible. Could you give more evidence for a childhood meeting? Nope.

You had to come up with an event to have an answer to what Karowu refers to. Occam's Razor would say that your answer isn't likely. Or less likely. But that's not what this is about.

Clearly he doesn't see any evidence forthcoming which might persuade him to change his view, and neither do you.

Guess what - I don't try to persuade him. Never did, never will. He has his view, I have mine. I don't tell him what to think.

[Dima]

The fact that some thing is not impossible does not in itself mean that it is likely; this is just basic.

No it doesn't means it is likely but it means it is possible. Simply as that. Both sides are just speculating so we only have to see after FINAL who is was right and who was wrong (if we will see).

Actually, what interests me is why people are so keen for there to be a loop at all. What are they trying to prove? It would just take the story another step further from the reality that it would seem (as a story with a moral) to be an analogue of.

I don't think people are keen for there to be a loop. There is just enough evidence to support a theory or a discussion about a loop theory and since there is not an official statement proving otherwise (despite someone in here creating one from his imagination just to prove his point) we are free to speculate.

As does going on about it.

It is plain that Bagheera takes the words of the title to have the meaning expressed by those words. I have given my interpretation of the parentheses which is consistent with what happens in the film, which maybe he accepts as possible, as he's not popped up to contradict it [shrug].

I think Bagheera can defend his views and write down an answer instead of you defending him, without wanting to offend you m8. Bagheera started a discussion so the best he has to do is finish it. Imagine what will happen if in every thread, there is a discussion going on and somebody comes and flips the whole thread upside down and leaves with no replying back.

[Jäeger]

No it doesn't means it is likely but it means it is possible. Simply as that. Both sides are just speculating so we only have to see after FINAL who is was right and who was wrong (if we will see).

We won't see, you can be pretty sure about that. I wouldn't discard teasing with a ghostly Kaworu, but no more

I don't think people are keen for there to be a loop. There is just enough evidence to support a theory or a discussion about a loop theory and since there is not an official statement proving otherwise (despite someone in here creating one from his imagination just to prove his point) we are free to speculate.

But doesn't mean every theory deserves respect if it has no sense. I can accept a lot of loop theories but direct sequel/"endless eight loop" theory linked with NGE?? No fucking way, because it's not what the movies are showing us. It's not a legitimate theory, it's a lie. And the "If you cannot proof it's false, the it can be true" logic goes beyond manipulation. It could help me make up even a "Chewbacca is Luke's real father" theory.


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[qu4d]

That is true... but that doesn't seem to be the problem here. pwhodges now started talking about persuading people. And it baffles my effing mind, that people even could think that this is what this here is about.

This is not how a discussion and science works. There is a problem and I simply enjoy trying to find a solution for that. I don't give a rats ass whether my T.U.R.D. turns out to be true or false. I couldn't even be right or wrong, because none of this is my belief.

There are several solutions, no matter how stupid anyone thinks they are:
a) Kaworu and Shinji met as children
b) T.U.R.D.
c) Another loop within the NTE universe without any connection to NGE
d) Some kind of reset or whatever
e) Chewbacca is Luke's father

Science is about coming up with theories and trying to find flaws in them - not convincing anybody of somebody's belief. I think d) and e) are stupid. That's it. I said that maybe a few times across several threads and I don't see any point in going on with that. If I had to bet, I probably would go with b). a) could also be correct, but imho there is not really anything that indicates that and way more important: that would be boring. And that's it. Is here anyone really trying to persuade somebody?!

The point of this thread is finding flaws. The see being red as a result of EoE? We know that it is a result of 2nd Impact as told in Eva 2.22 - so that would be a flaw. End of story.

Are there any flaws in my T.U.R.D.? I don't think so. It's possible, no matter how likely or not it is. At least it has more basis that Chewbacca being Luke's father. If you find any - tell me, I'm just interested in ideas and finding some kind of truth.

If somebody has ideas about the coffins on the moon? Create a thread and we can all try to find evidence that supports the idea or find flaws - so in the end, we might get a result to what's up with those things. Not to be right or wrong.

[pwhodges]

Science is about coming up with theories and trying to find flaws in them

There seems to be a lot of not believing in the evidence of flaws going on here, though.

- not convincing anybody of somebody's belief.

You've clearly been to different scientific meetings from me.

Scientific evidence, from experiments, is typically provisional; and convincing people of the strength of that evidence, the probability that it is reproducible and will stand up in the future, is all part of the process.

At least with the films, the evidence is fixed. There is no experiment to be done which will change what we have (except sometimes in the realm of translation). There is only interpretation, and then the question is what does it mean? And in the cases where it can be argued that what it means is something more than what the words say, there is indeed persuasion as part of the process of getting a view across.

[Ah Q]

There is a thing you don't seem to understand : in the manga there is no time loop, there is no reset, there is no travelling back in time. The remains of 3I impact are there, it's the same world and the same time line. What we see are not the original Shinji and Asuka, they are just reincarnations or reborn, if you like.

Actually, I completely acknowledged this continuity in my previous comments. The "relic" MPEs are still there, clearly. There was no time travel. And as I further pointed out, Yui specifically says that Shinji will be "reborn."

So it is a "reset" of sorts, but not one involving time travel. (This is why, frankly, I'm not sure time travel is integral to any loop theory.)

But one important point that you and Bagheera have so far ignored is that Japan once again has seasons at the end of the manga! This is significant given Yui's promise to Shinji that she will one day show him what snow looks like. So there was, at the very least, some form of physical reset that took place post-Instrumentality. Or, millennia have passed and the earth somehow regained its seasons.

But in general, I think you and I are on the same page about what happened in the manga. The pertinent point is that there is no evidence that it was a simple "mindwipe."

Seriously, I love how people tall about quantum Rei and time and space, because the show never has told about that. Does symbolism ring a bell???

Sure, Quantum!Rei could just be symbolism. But we don't have any compelling reason to believe that she's not literal. We simply do not have enough information to discard one theory or the other. I would add, however, that ReIQ's startled reaction to the Rei apparition suggests that she is a literal appearance rather than a mere symbol.

And I can accept a lot of loop theories....but one implying EoE?? You have no proof because there is no way to prove it and just because you cannot the contraRy that doesn't mean that it's a posibility.

Well, it is a possibility. But honestly, I think it's a remote one. The first film's allusions to EoE are about the only evidence for it, and as Bagheera has rightly pointed out, there are in universe explanations for the red ocean. The only thing that intrigues me is the apparent possibility to go from Instrumentality to some sort of rebirth or reset, as in the manga. But I agree that the sequel theory, which posits that NTE and EoE are part of the same continuity, is pretty weak at this point.

That's not to say it shouldn't be explored, though.

What I see it's that a lot of people want NTE to be a direct sequel and they deliberately forget how EoE ended and that a classic time loop (endless eight) is travelling back in time again and again to the same hour and minute, the GROUNDHOG DAY, a real reset. Not a similar but very different scenario, which can be explained with reincarnations but never messing with resets because THERE IS NO POSSIBLE RESET IF IT'S A DIFFERENT SCENARIO. And my god, never heard of a 28 years Groundhog day. NTE would be a pioneer in every industry. What I see it's that many people are not willing to accept the concept of "retelling". And that comes from a guy that thinks that is a concept compatible with the "universe reborn time loop" and "alternate universe" concepts.

You are making a lot of assumptions about looping that, frankly, aren't based on anything other than your own opinion about how these things should and should not work.

But, for what it's worth, it may very well be that NTE is just another "retelling." I think Kaworu provides a number of cues that suggest some form of time loop or alternate universe theory, but at this point, nothing is conclusive.

And I have a question, because somebody has brought the subject. In the manga, Shinji's reincarnation has no parents because they are travelling through space. We agree on that, don't we?

Well, I don't know. The manga is ambiguous. Yui talks of being "reborn," and even floats the idea of Shinji being reborn multiple times. Birth implies parents. But at the same time, Shinji's goodbye to Yui and Gendo implies that they are indeed absent from the final manga. So perhaps Shinji was reborn to other parents? Who knows? It's ambiguous.

I still recommend reading about Xenogears, because it's a heavily EVA influenced videogame. Main character's love interest is a redhead with german surname, gazel ministery (the twelve first humans who are just data and plot in the shadows to make mankind go back to god being one with him again) Main character's personality disorders, etc....

Yep, great game! I think I still have it somewhere.

[qu4d]

At least with the films, the evidence is fixed. There is no experiment to be done which will change what we have (except sometimes in the realm of translation). There is only interpretation, and then the question is what does it mean? And in the cases where it can be argued that what it means is something more than what the words say, there is indeed persuasion as part of the process of getting a view across.

How is explaining something "persuasion"? What would I persuade people of? You understand the concept that I am explaining, I guess. Jäeger understands it. He thinks it could be like that, even though he doesn't like it. But liking something doesn't matter. Jäeger could hate it, I wouldn't mind. I would mind if he'd be a dick about it.

[NemZ]

Qu4d, Bags most likely will not be answering you because I advised him to step away from the thread before he gets himself in trouble.

All of this speculation is likely to be rendered utterly pointless after Final anyway, so what's the use of getting all worked up about it?

[qu4d]

I wasn't getting worked up. I just want peace and respect for other people. This should be a place where everybody can discuss stuff. Interpretations and all of that. Bags didn't show that respect and that's a shame. I'm okay if he doesn't like the idea of a time loop/universe reborn. Why can't he just leave people alone?

And even if all of this is pointless after final - I don't care. I enjoyed the time thinking about stuff. Otherwise the board could be closed anyway.

[pwhodges]

Shinji's goodbye to Yui and Gendo implies that they are indeed absent from the final manga.

Rather explicitly, indeed; in reply to Shinji asking what she will do Yui says: "I'll be here beside you. Now and forever until the end of your life. You will die and be reborn. And no matter how many times you are reborn, silently, I'll be watching you."

[Jäeger]

Actually, I completely acknowledged this continuity in my previous comments. The "relic" MPEs are still there, clearly. There was no time travel. And as I further pointed out, Yui specifically says that Shinji will be "reborn."

So it is a "reset" of sorts, but not one involving time travel. (This is why, frankly, I'm not sure time travel is integral to any loop theory.)

If we're talking about reset, yes, because reset is going back to the exact starting point, the same minute, hour, day and year : the groundhog day. What we see in sadamanga's ending is not time loop, not even a repetition of events : just reincarnations. Still, the most opposite ending to EoE.

But one important point that you and Bagheera have so far ignored is that Japan once again has seasons at the end of the manga! This is significant given Yui's promise to Shinji that she will one day show him what snow looks like. So there was, at the very least, some form of physical reset that took place post-Instrumentality. Or, millennia have passed and the earth somehow regained its seasons.

But in general, I think you and I are on the same page about what happened in the manga. The pertinent point is that there is no evidence that it was a simple "mindwipe."

Of course is not a mindwipe : they are reincarnations. But you have so far ignored one thing : that example cannot be applied to EoE because WE KNOW what happens just after 3I. And it's the opposite of Sadamanga's ending. There is no time and space here, there are no reincarnations : the same Asuka and Shinji in in "real time"

The manga An example for Rebuild In universe time loop??? Maybe or may be not. As I've said before my problem is not with the time loop theory. It's with the desesperate attempt of a minory to link NTE and NGE with a direct sequel/groundhog day theory, which is fucking stupid, not even a possibility.

Well, it is a possibility. But honestly, I think it's a remote one. The first film's allusions to EoE are about the only evidence for it, and as Bagheera has rightly pointed out, there are in universe explanations for the red ocean. The only thing that intrigues me is the apparent possibility to go from Instrumentality to some sort of rebirth or reset, as in the manga. But I agree that the sequel theory, which posits that NTE and EoE are part of the same continuity, is pretty weak at this point.

I told you before. Instrumentality fails and we know what happens after, it has nothing to do with the manga ending. The hell, Asuka and Shinji chose to go back to real world because it's their will. The same world before 3I, and everybody has the same chance as THEMSELVES. Not reincarnations, not resets, no time and space : just people choOsing to live on the wasteland or in the sea of LCL. In Sadamanga souls lose control over they fate, in EoE they main point it's that they get total control over their destiny. In Sadamanga they lose their memories and are reborn in the future. In EoE they have to chose if they prefer human or liquid form. Sorry if I sound harsh, but if I have to explain this I feel like I'm wasting my time. The anime and the manga ending have little in common, and it's how it is.

You are making a lot of assumptions about looping that, frankly, aren't based on anything other than your own opinion about how these things should and should not work.

No, I just showed you how how they work. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_loop[/url].

The same moment, again , again ,and again. It can be a minute, an hour or a whole day, but It's always the same minute , hour or day. it doesn' matter if its the second or 1000th repetiton : in the first second, every repetition starts the exact same way. It's always the 23 rd of september of 1987 at 10:33 AM. It has nothing to do with reincarnations facing similar circumstances. If we've started a debate without this knowledge, side effects are inevitable

Well, I don't know. The manga is ambiguous. Yui talks of being "reborn," and even floats the idea of Shinji being reborn multiple times. Birth implies parents. But at the same time, Shinji's goodbye to Yui and Gendo implies that they are indeed absent from the final manga. So perhaps Shinji was reborn to other parents? Who knows? It's ambiguous.

The manga is not ambiguous : if she escapes Lillith's control in EVA 01, she cannot participate in the reborn party. She just left the planet and I doubt Lillith can control every inch of the universe. Or are we gonna argue about that because the manga/show doesn´t make it explicit??
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[NemZ]

Otherwise the board could be closed anyway.

This would in fact be my preference, but the rest of the staff won't let me.

[qu4d]

Because they are racists! I tell you!

[Dima]

All of this speculation is likely to be rendered utterly pointless after Final anyway.

I wouldn't be so sure about that.....

[Jäeger]

I wouldn't be so sure about that.....

It won't be answered. Anno is just teasing people.

And he has succed.

[Ah Q]

If we're talking about reset, yes, because reset is going back to the exact starting point, the same minute, hour, day and year : the groundhog day. What we see in sadamanga's ending is not time loop, not even a repetition of events : just reincarnations. Still, the most opposite ending to EoE.

You are narrowly defining "reset" in a way that is not compelled by anything in logic or Evangelion. But now we're just quibbling over terminology, which is pointless. We seem to agree: in the manga, there was some sort of rebirth following Instrumentality. It took place on the same earth and in the same continuity (as the "relic" MPEs show), so it was not time travel. Nonetheless, in some respects, the earth seems to have returned to a pre-Second Impact condition (otherwise it could not be winter in Japan). Many of the same people who existed pre-Instrumentality were reborn, but they have lived radically different lives.

Whether we call this a rebirth a reset is really beside the point. I think we agree on the same essential facts.

Of course is not a mindwipe : they are reincarnations.

Right. I was responding to Bagheera, who insisted that it was a mindwipe.

But you have so far ignored one thing : that example cannot be applied to EoE because WE KNOW what happens just after 3I. And it's the opposite of Sadamanga's ending. There is no time and space here, there are no reincarnations : the same Asuka and Shinji in in "real time"

I actually agree with your conclusion, although I disagree that I have ignored it. In fact, I pointed out earlier in this thread that the biggest problem with the sequel theory is that there's no clear way to get from the end of EoE to the beginning of 1.11.

If someone were to ask me, in the abstract, if I thought Anno might try to tie together the various Evangelion continuities under some umbrella theory (through rebirth, looping, alternate universes, or whatever), I would say that that sounds like something Anno might do. But I agree that there is not yet any compelling evidence in NTE for such a far-reaching theory, and the problem you and I identified above -- how to get from EoE to 1.11 -- makes any such theory unlikely.

The manga An example for Rebuild In universe time loop??? Maybe or may be not.

What I find interesting about the manga is that it introduces the idea of the characters going back and living different lives. In the manga, that mechanism is explicitly some form of rebirth. Now we don't know the specifics, or how much time passed between the end of Instrumentality and the beginning of the final manga. It could have been years, or it could have been millennia.

The point is, the characters were reborn (possibly multiple times, per Yui's comments in Stage 95), and this time the events of Evangelion did not repeat themselves. The characters are leading totally different lives.

I am not suggesting that the manga should be read as a pattern for the Rebuilds. As we know, what holds true in Continuity X may not hold true in Continuity Y. I simply find the manga fascinating in that it brings the idea of literal rebirth into the Evangelion canon.

As I've said before my problem is not with the time loop theory. It's with the desesperate attempt of a minory to link NTE and NGE with a direct sequel/groundhog day theory, which is fucking stupid, not even a possibility.

I have consistently acknowledged the problems with the sequel theory. I think the theory is not nearly as compelling as some sort of in-universe NTE looping or alternate universe theory.

However, I am not yet willing to say that a sequel theory is "not even a possibility," much less a "desperate" or "fucking stupid" idea. First off, those are just ad hominems that don't get us anywhere. But more importantly, we're dealing with Anno here. Who knows what the hell that man is thinking. Back in the '90s, I had lots of ideas about how NGE would end, but I never anticipated anything like Episodes 25 and 25, much less EoE.

I am fully expecting that all theories about NTE will be disproved in the next film.

The manga is not ambiguous : if she escapes Lillith's control in EVA 01, she cannot participate in the reborn party. She just left the planet and I doubt Lillith can control every inch of the universe. Or are we gonna argue about that because the manga/show doesn´t make it explicit??

You're misconstruing my earlier comment. I agreed with you that Yui and Gendo are almost certainly absent post-Instrumentality. But you put forward the notion that Shinji did not have parents at the end of the manga. As I said, if Shinji was "reborn," implicitly he was reborn to someone. Since we don't know the specifics of rebirth, it is by all means possible that Shinji was reborn to different parents following Instrumentality. We just don't know.

No, I just showed you how how they work. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_loop.

The same moment, again , again ,and again. It can be a minute, an hour or a whole day, but It's always the same minute , hour or day. it doesn' matter if its the second or 1000th repetiton : in the first second, every repetition starts the exact same way. It's always the 23 rd of september of 1987 at 10:33 AM. It has nothing to do with reincarnations facing similar circumstances. If we've started a debate without this knowledge, side effects are inevitable

So you are suggesting that "time loop" is essentially a term of art in science fiction, which invariably has the same definition and the same function across every book, manga, film, and TV show? Come on man, we know that tropes are far more flexible than that.

In any instance, I confess that I must be missing your point. Even under the definition you have provided above, I could very well see the NTE films including a time loop. The key point is that although time repeatedly gets "reset" to a particular moment, it only starts out the same way. The plot device is only interesting if subsequent events play out differently with each loop.

If your point is that this "time loop" is distinct from what we see in the manga, then there is no argument. As should be obvious by now, I distinguish manga-style rebirth from time-travel-esque looping. They are not the same concept.

Edit: Words and stuff.

[Sorrow]

The fact that some thing is not impossible does not in itself mean that it is likely; this is just basic.

There are a number of things which can, often with a bit of stretching, be taken to support either a loop or a sequel. But there is nothing that makes that interpretation compelling in the face of contrary evidence.

I don't see any particular stretching. There are enough comments by Kaworu that warrant an explanation; pick up on a few other details and people say "maybe it might go this route?" People ask for how that would be appropriate in a message Anno would wish to portray, and Sachi provides a rather nice take. I don't believe anyone is trying to force a square into a circle shaped opening - they're currently trying to determine what shape they're working with.

Actually, what interests me is why people are so keen for there to be a loop at all. What are they trying to prove? It would just take the story another step further from the reality that it would seem (as a story with a moral) to be an analogue of.

What interests me is why people are so keen to say there absolutely is no loop at all. What are they trying to prove? A loop theory would not be taking Evangelion in an even more unbelievable route than it's already taken in the past. Anno is rather good at taking things that have no place or basis in our real lives and telling a personal story with these bizarre pieces. A time loop will not make it any less appropriate than it already is or isn't.

This argument is entirely about the applicability of different items of evidence. There is strong evidence, weak evidence, circumstantial evidence - all sorts. Some people try to judge the importance of each item by weighting it according to its nature and strength to try to find the overall answer with the highest probability of being correct; but others appear take the items they are interested by as being the most important regardless, in what seems an uncritical manner.

But there is another film to go, and you or anyone can not say with any certainty what Anno is going to explore with it. Weak evidence it may be, but there is enough there that should Anno[s]---[/s]heaven forbid[s]---[/s]make a loop of sorts a focus, no one can say "where did that come from?!" That's the point. What evidence people are claiming is leaving enough room that no one ought to be surprised if it becomes a focus.

As far as the forum goes, it's all just words either way - though I know which kind of person I'd rather have write, say, a risk analysis for me!

You mean the sort of person who overlooks minor risks, like the tightness of a single screw holding in a stage light, because it "almost certainly will not make a difference in the future"?

The point is, the loose screw is there - even if it's only one.

Perhaps he can't be bothered; he doesn't have to, you know - this is just a forum.

You, or the person in question, can not hold this position after the one you're defending told someone else to stop being childish for stepping away from the debate, with reasons.

You can't call someone childish for stepping aside with warning and an explanation, even accusing them of making excuses for their lack of ability to debate the issue further, and then simply decide they aren't worth debating with; then move on when more debate instantly comes your way. It's hypocritical and childish.

I'm aware NemZ advised this person to step away, but you tried to defend the above (as no one was told this person was warned to back away) when it wasn't defensible.

[pwhodges]

They way things are in this thread, I'm not surprised at being criticised for defending someone who for whatever reason is not present to defend himself. But I've said my bit, and have no more to say here.