Loop Theories and How They Work

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Thu Nov 13, 2014 4:51 am

I'm having a hard time putting my feelings into words, but I have a visceral gut feeling that there is something to be gained from looping. Maybe I'll think about it some more and contradict myself later.

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Thu Nov 13, 2014 5:01 am

I'm also not arguing that a theory such as that is applicable to NTE or that it would even work as NTE's ending. Rather I'm arguing that simply the concept of that kind of ending in general has some interesting things going for it and shouldn't be immediately dismissed simply because it resets things resulting in the knowledge of events being eradticated from the characters' minds without them realizing it. Whether or not an ending like that works certainly depends more on what the narrative was all about, and by extension what it was that the narrator was trying to accomplish with the rest of that story. If the main reasoning behind this theory is simply to explain how Kaworu knew about Shinji in NTE, then at that point Google, personality disorders, and an extreme obsession complex might be a better explanation for that than a loop theory would be.
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Postby Jäeger » Thu Nov 13, 2014 5:20 am

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:^
You're mixing things: Freaky isn't answering to Qu4d's theory about NTE being in the next universe born after the death of the previous one, but of UnitM and Sachi's who believe in a more "classical" time loop, Endless Eight style.

But even if Qu4d theory was right, what would be the interest? What could the characters learn from know that untold billions of years ago others them from a previous universe existed and that they are acting in ways similar than back then? Is Shinji supposed to fight that to prevent it to happen? He'll try to stop the freaking heat death of the universe? How, will he don a white bunnycat costume and find prepubescent girls to make them become Magical Girls?

What would be the point behind that, a half-assed way to explain how Kaworu know Shinji and is obsessed by him from the moment he awoke?


OK OK, but I supose you agree with me that a classical time loop with NGE and NTE has no sense, because it's not the same starting point : it's a different setting, similar but not the same, a different universe. The hell, even Asuka is a different character. ANd what the fuck, there is no reset after EoE : the future of mankind is left in people's hands.

And I agree with you the time loop theory doesn't add anything, except an excuse for the release of the new movies. But and endless eight loop example has no sense because it's not what is happening. Unless after EoE Shinji and Asuka went to bed and ohh surprise here again, but without memories!!!!...
Which would be even less interesting. Classical time loop only has sense if the same character with knowledge of the time loop and in the EXACT SAME SETTINGS. These are new characters in a similar but very different world. Endless Eight doesn´t work as an example, because it's the groundhog day. A classic time lopp it's not about repeating, not about emulating similar experiences. It's about going back in time again again and again to the exact same moment the story started. It always start from the same point and ends in the exact same point, till the character fine the way to break the course and time advances again. If people try to fin a link between NGE and NTE, that's not the answer because it's not what is happening

Read about Xenogears story and the relationship between Fei and Elly and you'll know what I'm talking about. The main characters are the fourth reincarnation of a couple who always met no matter the time and whose relationship always end with her horrible death. And this time Fei, being a different character (the same way others incarnations were) wants to put enda to that cycle. But, despite recovering the memories of their past seleves, both are different characters in a different age. The look the same, they know about their previous incarnations but they are not the same. Ahhh, and Krelian is Kaworu, of course.
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Postby Sachi » Thu Nov 13, 2014 12:11 pm

@Jäeger: keep in mind that there are versions of the loop theory that are self-contained within the NTE universe, and other versions that also choose to encompass the original series along with it (essentially merging the canons). I am not in support of the latter at all; the former is something I can get behind. But yeah, not everybody is trying to link the two series together.
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Re: My "The Universe Reborn Dogma" (Loop Theory)

Postby Ah Q » Thu Nov 13, 2014 8:10 pm

By way of disclosure, I am a fan of the loop theories. I am also partial to sequel theories, although the biggest unanswered question is how we get from the conclusion of EoE to the beginning of 1.11.

That said, I don't think we have enough information yet to conclusively prove, or disprove, any of these theories.

qu4d wrote:NGE happened. At some point there was the Big Bang, billions of years passed, Shinji was born and at an unknown point in time he dies, just like the universe a few billion years later. As a result of that, the universe is reborn, known to us as NTE.


This is certainly a possibility, although I am not convinced that we need the entire universe to be reborn in order for a loop theory to work. Given Evangelion's many hat tips to quantum mechanics, as well as Quantum!Rei's (and possibly Kaworu's) ability to transcend time and space, the "starting point" for each loop may not need to be the Big Bang. If Quantum!Rei can traverse time and appear to Shinji just before Sachiel's attack, it may be possible to initiate a new loop without going "all the way back," so to speak.

Moreover, there may a degree of physical continuity between each loop (which, in my mind, provides modest support a more linear, sequel-type theory). The Kaworu Coffins on the moon, the blood red sea, and the conclusion of the manga all hint at this possibility.

When Kaworu and Shinji play piano, Kaworu tells Shinji, that he has to do stuff over and over again, until he is satisfied with the result. Without that, nothing will ever change.


This is an important part of 3.33, and I believe it lends direct support to the loop theory. However, I think we need to contemplate whether Shinji is the relevant actor here. We tend to assume that he is, because he is our protagonist and because the above line was directed at him. But as many have pointed out, Shinji apparently has no recollection of earlier loops, and therefore cannot meaningfully learn from each iteration.

So perhaps Shinji isn't the one who needs to get things right. It could be Kaworu himself, or perhaps even Quantum!Rei. These are the only two beings we know of who (apparently) have some continuity of knowledge across loops.

Ever thought about Rei? Assuming Rei got the ability to transcend time and space (Beginning of Episode 01 and End of EoE) - what if the Quantum!Rei from NGE is the one that we see at the beginning of 1.11 and in 3.33, when Rei sees her, while she is in the Reiquarium?


Personally, I think it may very well be the same Quantum!Rei in each apparition.

While we are on the topic of Quantum!Rei, I want to throw out one more idea.

As noted above, quantum mechanics plays a subtle but recurring role in the Evangelion universe. In Episode 23, we see the words "Top," "Bottom," and "Strangeness" -- referring to "flavors" of quarks -- scrawled on the walls of the room where Rei was "born." In Episode 16, Shinji and Unit 01 are absorbed into a Dirac Sea. Shinji defeats Ramiel using a positron rifle in Episode 6. The Angels, the Evas, Adam, Lilith, Rei, and Kaworu are all said to be composed of "particle-wave matter." (If I really wanted to push things, I might say that the death of Ritsuko's cat in Episode 23 is an allusion to Shrodinger's Cat.) And so on.

I wonder if the various loop theories aren't too linear. That is, we tend to assume that one loop happens after the other, sequentially.

Now, NTE and the manga both tend to speak in terms of temporal sequence. Kaworu speaks of seeing Shinji "again." In the manga, the loop shown in the final stage clearly takes place on the same earth at some time after Shinji rejects Instrumentality.

But I wonder whether this is the right way to view the loop theory. Many scientists theorize the existence of multiple universes, each of which might be said to simultaneously exist. Some might be very similar to ours, but others are not. There may even be interaction between these parallel universes.

And so, perhaps the "loops" in Evangelion (whether confined to NTE or not) are in fact separate parallel universes.

Just a thought.

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Re: My "The Universe Reborn Dogma" (Loop Theory)

Postby Bagheera » Thu Nov 13, 2014 8:28 pm

View Original PostAh Q wrote:That said, I don't think we have enough information yet to conclusively prove, or disprove, any of these theories.


I think the fact we have no meaningful evidence to work with is reason enough to dismiss them.

If Quantum!Rei can traverse time and appear to Shinji just before Sachiel's attack, it may be possible to initiate a new loop without going "all the way back," so to speak.


What makes you think we can, or that there's anything particularly "quantum" about that Rei? She could be a manifestation of Lilith in the here and now, using the same power we see displayed in EoE.

Moreover, there may a degree of physical continuity between each loop (which, in my mind, provides modest support a more linear, sequel-type theory). The Kaworu Coffins on the moon, the blood red sea, and the conclusion of the manga all hint at this possibility.


How does any of that hint of anything of the sort? The coffins are bizarre, the red sea isn't even relevant, and the Manga is by definition a different continuity. It isn't evidence for anything (and there's no looping in the manga anyway).

This is an important part of 3.33, and I believe it lends direct support to the loop theory.


Why? "You have to keep practicing to get better" has nothing whatsoever to do with "we are repeating time, are living the same events over and over again with no knowledge of what came before because . . . reasons!"

So perhaps Shinji isn't the one who needs to get things right. It could be Kaworu himself, or perhaps even Quantum!Rei. These are the only two beings we know of who (apparently) have some continuity of knowledge across loops.


Why do you assume either has continuity of knowledge across loops? Kaworu clearly has it in SRW, but beyond that there's no evidence of it in NGE or the new movies. And Rei . . . there's nothing there, man. An apparition means absolutely nothing.

As noted above, quantum mechanics plays a subtle but recurring role in the Evangelion universe. In Episode 23, we see the words "Top," "Bottom," and "Strangeness" -- referring to "flavors" of quarks -- scrawled on the walls of the room where Rei was "born." In Episode 16, Shinji and Unit 01 are absorbed into a Dirac Sea. Shinji defeats Ramiel using a positron rifle in Episode 6. The Angels, the Evas, Adam, Lilith, Rei, and Kaworu are all said to be composed of "particle-wave matter." (If I really wanted to push things, I might say that the death of Ritsuko's cat in Episode 23 is an allusion to Shrodinger's Cat.) And so on.


None of this means anything. The Dirac Sea has nothing to do with time travel, the positron rifle has nothing to do with time travel, and only Shamshel was said to be composed of PWM. This logically extends to the rest of the Angels, but it does not extend to Adam, Lilith, Rei, Kaworu, or the Evas. And Ritz's cat, holy fuck man.

Now, NTE and the manga both tend to speak in terms of temporal sequence. Kaworu speaks of seeing Shinji "again." In the manga, the loop shown in the final stage clearly takes place on the same earth at some time after Shinji rejects Instrumentality.


Neither speak in terms of temporal sequence. Kaworu speaks of meeting Shinji again, but that says nothing about looping (clones, dude). And in the manga it's clear people were mindwiped, since we have direct evidence that no looping is in play.
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Re: My "The Universe Reborn Dogma" (Loop Theory)

Postby Ah Q » Thu Nov 13, 2014 9:21 pm

Bagheera wrote:I think the fact we have no meaningful evidence to work with is reason enough to dismiss them.


OK Bagheera, you are on the record as being one of this forum's most vocal opponents of the loop theories. I get it. I have read your arguments and digested them, and I regret to inform you that I am not persuaded by them, just as you are not persuaded by arguments supporting these theories.

I'll be blunt: I have no desire to engage with you over this topic. It would simply be a repeat of many previous discussions you have had with others, including in this very thread. Repeating your arguments, or stating them with more force, has so far not changed my mind. I, for one, see substantial evidence of some form of looping theory. You dismiss this evidence as not being "meaningful," but I am afraid we will just have to disagree on that.

I will respond to a few of your points, but I have no interest in perpetuating this endless debate. My interest is in exploring the possible form and implications of a loop theory, assuming one exists, rather than debating that very premise.

What makes you think . . . that there's anything particularly "quantum" about that Rei?


As stated, the fact that "Top," "Bottom," and "Strangeness" are written on the walls in her place of "birth," the implication that she is made of particle-wave matter, and the repeated Rei apparitions. (These latter apparitions are of course Rei/Lilith from EoE. The fact that this being can transcend time and appear to Shinji at the beginning of episode 1 suggests something "quantum" about her.)

How does any of that hint of anything of the sort? The coffins are bizarre, the red sea isn't even relevant, and the Manga is by definition a different continuity. It isn't evidence for anything (and there's no looping in the manga anyway).


The coffins are certainly bizarre, but a common interpretation is that each iteration of Kaworu may have arisen from a separate coffin. Certainly the coffin evidence is not by itself conclusive, but it's one piece in the puzzle.

How is the red sea not relevant? The scene at the beginning of 1.11 where the red sea is washing up on the shore is a fairly overt reference to the final scene in EoE. The question in my mind is whether this is intended as a mere allusion, or as something more literal -- i.e., the sea is still red as a result of Instrumentality. Yes, I know there is a possible in-universe explanation for the sea turning red, but I still don't think we can answer this question definitively yet.

In asserting that the manga is "by definition a separate continuity," you are assuming the very proposition you are attempting to prove: that the different continuities are totally independent and discrete. In other words, your reasoning is circular.

In any instance, the manga's conclusion does support a looping or sequel theory. Somehow the world went from Shinji's rejection of Instrumentality to a world in which Shinji, Asuka, and others have apparently been reborn (and yes, Yui actually uses the word "reborn"), but with no recollection of the past. The "crucified" mass production Evas are present, but nobody knows what they are.

Why? "You have to keep practicing to get better" has nothing whatsoever to do with "we are repeating time, are living the same events over and over again with no knowledge of what came before because . . . reasons!"


I actually addressed this point. Shinji clearly doesn't have any continuity of knowledge across loops. But Kaworu does. I am suggesting that Kaworu's line about repetition may not actually be describing Shinji as the relevant actor who must get things right through an iterative "looping" process. But this is just an idea.

An apparition means absolutely nothing.


Well presumably it means something.

None of this means anything. The Dirac Sea has nothing to do with time travel, the positron rifle has nothing to do with time travel, and only Shamshel was said to be composed of PWM. This logically extends to the rest of the Angels, but it does not extend to Adam, Lilith, Rei, Kaworu, or the Evas. And Ritz's cat, holy fuck man.


I was merely demonstrating that quantum mechanics -- not time travel -- is a recurring theme in Evangelion. I can't help but think you are willfully misreading my original post (which only further establishes that hashing these issues out with you is totally pointless).

Neither speak in terms of temporal sequence. Kaworu speaks of meeting Shinji again


"Again" implies temporal sequence.

but that says nothing about looping (clones, dude). And in the manga it's clear people were mindwiped, since we have direct evidence that no looping is in play.


Mindwiped, or reborn? Yui says that Shinji will be "reborn," and in fact refers to Shinji being reborn multiple times. This suggests some form of in-world temporal looping, with some degree of physical continuity across loops (e.g., the "relic" mass production Evas). (Of course, the fact that Japan is again experiencing seasons in the final stage of the manga suggests that the physical continuity is not comprehensive. Somehow we have reverted to a world in which Japan once again experiences seasons.)

What is this "direct evidence" you speak of? In my reading of the manga, I don't see any direct evidence of mindwiping.

This is as far as I will engage with you, Bagheera. I have read your arguments on this forum many times, including in this very thread. The fact that you repeat them so often and with such force does not make them any more persuasive to me.

I have no doubt that you will insist on getting in the last word here, so I will let you. As I said, my purpose in entering this conversation is not to engage with you, but to engage with those who are at least open to the idea of some form of loop or sequel theory.

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Re: My "The Universe Reborn Dogma" (Loop Theory)

Postby Bagheera » Thu Nov 13, 2014 9:44 pm

View Original PostAh Q wrote:As stated, the fact that "Top," "Bottom," and "Strangeness" are written on the walls in her place of "birth," the implication that she is made of particle-wave matter, and the repeated Rei apparitions. (These latter apparitions are of course Rei/Lilith from EoE. The fact that this being can transcend time and appear to Shinji at the beginning of episode 1 suggests something "quantum" about her.)


But that's not a fact, which was what I was getting at by noting that Lilith could do this just as easily in ep 1 as later. We have no reason whatsoever to believe she has transcended time.

How is the red sea not relevant?


Because we're told directly that it's the result off 2I. How does it relate to anything? I mean, the sea in EoE was orange, the color of LCL, not red. Yes, the parallel was obvious, but it was just as obviously different.

Yes, I know there is an in-universe explanation for the sea turning red, but I still don't think we can answer this question definitively yet.


If there's an explicit in-universe explanation how can we not answer the question definitively?

In asserting that the manga is "by definition a separate continuity," you are assuming the very proposition you are attempting to prove: that the different continuities are totally independent and discrete. In other words, your reasoning is circular.


No, it's not. Absent evidence to the contrary we should take the different continuities at their word. We know they're separate. It's up to the sequel theorists to prove otherwise, and not to us to prove what's explicitly stated is so.

In any instance, the manga's conclusion does support a looping or sequel theory. Somehow the world went from Shinji's rejection of Instrumentality to a world in which Shinji, Asuka, and others have apparently been reborn (and yes, Yui actually uses the word "reborn"), but with no recollection of the past. The "crucified" mass production Evas are present, but nobody knows what they are.


And yet that explicitly tells us looping has not occurred. A mindwipe, yes, but not a loop. The MPE wouldn't be there if it was a loop.

I was merely demonstrating that quantum mechanics -- not time travel -- is a recurring theme in Evangelion.


Quantum mechanics and time travel are not particularly related.

"Again" implies temporal sequence.


I expect to meet my mother again at some point. Time travel? Or a plane ticket?

Clones are a thing in Eva. Why not assume Kaworu will meet Shinji in a new clone body rather than a new time loop?

What is this "direct evidence" you speak of? In my reading of the manga, I don't see any direct evidence of mindwiping.


The MPE is fairly explicit on the matter. The physical world has not changed, but the actors' memories have.

I have no doubt that you will insist on getting in the last word here, so I will let you. As I said, my purpose in entering this conversation is not to engage with you, but to engage with those who are at least open to the idea of some form of loop or sequel theory.


Oh, come on, stop being childish. This is the argument of someone who knows he has no leg to stand on, but is covering his bases as best he can.
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Re: My "The Universe Reborn Dogma" (Loop Theory)

Postby Ah Q » Thu Nov 13, 2014 10:23 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Oh, come on, stop being childish. This is the argument of someone who knows he has no leg to stand on, but is covering his bases as best he can.


Seriously?

My stated desire to avoid this debate is a reflection of the fact that I have watched this exact same argument play out between you and other members of this forum multiple times, and I frankly have no reason to indulge you once again. I have a family and a job, and therefore I don't particularly care to spend my limited down time engaging with you over this topic. I joined this thread to engage with others. Sorry.

The fact that you are so rigid about this topic doesn't help. I can't help but feel that you are engaging in bad faith. For example, my original comment about quantum mechanics being a reoccurring theme had nothing to do with time travel. I was suggesting that quantum mechanics opens the door to parallel universes, as opposed to sequential in-universe time looping. But these nuances were apparently lost on you.

Come on man, we aren't debating the existence of God; we're talking about anime. I don't have anything invested in the loop theory being "true" or not. If I had no leg to stand on, then, well, I wouldn't try to stand on it. We're talking about fiction here. Calm down.

I see the various loop theories as interesting, and I see support for them in the NTE films. I don't think we can conclusively rule them out yet, but hopefully we'll be given enough information in 3.0+1.0 to put this argument to bed.

In the meantime, I'm happy to explore these theories. I have read your arguments at length, and while you raise some good points about the limitations of the various loop theories, I am not persuaded that they should be discarded. Sorry, man.

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Re: My "The Universe Reborn Dogma" (Loop Theory)

Postby Sorrow » Thu Nov 13, 2014 10:38 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:But that's not a fact, which was what I was getting at by noting that Lilith could do this just as easily in ep 1 as later. We have no reason whatsoever to believe she has transcended time.
But you can not yet say that absolutely is not the case. It may be fleshed out yet.

Because we're told directly that it's the result off 2I. How does it relate to anything? I mean, the sea in EoE was orange, the color of LCL, not red. Yes, the parallel was obvious, but it was just as obviously different.
Bait and switch? Allow them to be viewed, and work, independently as well as part of a larger whole?

If there's an explicit in-universe explanation how can we not answer the question definitively?
He did specifically say "yet". That is to say, you can not yet say, with any authority, that is absolutely not the route the story is going to take. There are enough ifs and buts to see this as a possibility. From what I can gather, why some people are taking issue with you on this specific topic. You're saying "not a chance" with too much certainty, simply ignoring the genuine possibility.

No, it's not. Absent evidence to the contrary we should take the different continuities at their word. We know they're separate. It's up to the sequel theorists to prove otherwise, and not to us to prove what's explicitly stated is so.
But it is up to you to explain why it's so explicitly wrong, with no room for potentially different takes on what we currently have, if you would like to shut someone up with their guesses of the future. Is it officially stated?

I personally don't think they're connected continuities, but I have no authority, or knowledge of authority, to tell this person he doesn't have a leg to stand by thinking as such. If you do (knowledge of authority), then it would shut everyone up in regards to the manga.

And yet that explicitly tells us looping has not occurred. A mindwipe, yes, but not a loop. The MPE wouldn't be there if it was a loop.
If what Ah Q says about the mentioning of the word reborn is true (I'm not in a position to say), then coupled with the seasons returning it is not implausible that the characters have been reborn (a slight variation on history repeating itself?) at an unspecified time later.

I expect to meet my mother again at some point. Time travel? Or a plane ticket?

Clones are a thing in Eva. Why not assume Kaworu will meet Shinji in a new clone body rather than a new time loop?
Because Shinji is yet to meet, or even be aware of, Kaworu; Kaworu is all too aware of Shinji. If they are yet to meet, and somehow only one of them is aware of a prior meeting, then a time-loop is a possibility where Kaworu has some inside/outside/higher knowledge. It's also possible they met when they were children, and Shinji has no recollection, but that doesn't explain why Kaworu thinks they will meet again. Maybe he knows he can be replaced? Perhaps. But it still doesn't mean the time loop isn't still, currently, on the table or completely out of the question.

The MPE is fairly explicit on the matter. The physical world has not changed, but the actors' memories have.
Seasons having returned would be an example of the physical world being changed.
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Postby pwhodges » Fri Nov 14, 2014 3:10 am

Sigh.

The fact that some thing is not impossible does not in itself mean that it is likely; this is just basic.

There are a number of things which can, often with a bit of stretching, be taken to support either a loop or a sequel. But there is nothing that makes that interpretation compelling in the face of contrary evidence.

Actually, what interests me is why people are so keen for there to be a loop at all. What are they trying to prove? It would just take the story another step further from the reality that it would seem (as a story with a moral) to be an analogue of.
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Postby ElMariachi » Fri Nov 14, 2014 4:00 am

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:Actually, what interests me is why people are so keen for there to be a loop at all. What are they trying to prove? It would just take the story another step further from the reality that it would seem (as a story with a moral) to be an analogue of.

My theory is to have NGE end in a more open happy ending, than EoE's very bittersweet (almost Pyrrhic) one, so NTE would be the characters' second chance at making things right this time instead of having to rebuild the world from the ruins and red seas of EoE.
Needless to say, in the light of Q they might need another continue! :lol:

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Postby Jäeger » Fri Nov 14, 2014 4:16 am

In any instance, the manga's conclusion does support a looping or sequel theory. Somehow the world went from Shinji's rejection of Instrumentality to a world in which Shinji, Asuka, and others have apparently been reborn (and yes, Yui actually uses the word "reborn"), but with no recollection of the past. The "crucified" mass production Evas are present, but nobody knows what they are.


There is a thing you don't seem to understand : in the manga there is no time loop, there is no reset, there is no travelling back in time. The remains of 3I impact are there, it's the same world and the same time line. What we see are not the original Shinji and Asuka, they are just reincarnations or reborn, if you like.

Seriously, I love how people tall about quantum Rei and time and space, because the show never has told about that. Does symbolism ring a bell???

And I can accept a lot of loop theories....but one implying EoE?? You have no proof because there is no way to prove it and just because you cannot the contraRy that doesn't mean that it's a posibility. It would be like saying that Luke fucked Leia and you cannot say it's false because the show never says the opposite. AYou Seem to deliberately forget that the manga ending (AN ALTERNATE CONTINUITY)has nothing to do with EoE, which makes impossible any direct reset/loop : Shinji and Rei lose control over instrumentality after his rejection and HE GOES BACK TO THE REAL WORLD, the same real world of the series, OVER. It's the most opposite ending to Sadamoto's choice. In EoE he goes back to reality, manga it's a runaway. Rei/Lillith loses control over humans souls and after that it's "Do it yourself" for every person. Again, the most opposite choice to blank memories.

What I see it's that a lot of people want NTE to be a direct sequel and they deliberately forget how EoE ended and that a classic time loop (endless eight) is travelling back in time again and again to the same hour and minute, the GROUNDHOG DAY, a real reset. Not a similar but very different scenario, which can be explained with reincarnations but never messing with resets because THERE IS NO POSSIBLE RESET IF IT'S A DIFFERENT SCENARIO. And my god, never heard of a 28 years Groundhog day. NTE would be a pioneer in every industry. What I see it's that many people are not willing to accept the concept of "retelling". And that comes from a guy that thinks that is a concept compatible with the "universe reborn time loop" and "alternate universe" concepts.

And I have a question, because somebody has brought the subject. In the manga, Shinji's reincarnation has no parents because they are travelling through space. We agree on that, don't we? Well, in NTE SHE IS BACK, her soul is not light years away. And everybody knows it was HER choice to travel forever.

I still recommend reading about Xenogears, because it's a heavily EVA influenced videogame. Main character's love interest is a redhead with german surname, gazel ministery (the twelve first humans who are just data and plot in the shadows to make mankind go back to god being one with him again) Main character's personality disorders, etc....

Personally I blame Visual Novels and their anime adaptations!


Are you talking about Fate Stay or Stein's Gate??? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Do american "cool" people know that in Europe only alcoholics and homeless drink wine without food by their side???

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Postby Bagheera » Fri Nov 14, 2014 5:29 am

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:The fact that some thing is not impossible does not in itself mean that it is likely; this is just basic.

There are a number of things which can, often with a bit of stretching, be taken to support either a loop or a sequel. But there is nothing that makes that interpretation compelling in the face of contrary evidence.


Agreed on both counts.

Actually, what interests me is why people are so keen for there to be a loop at all. What are they trying to prove? It would just take the story another step further from the reality that it would seem (as a story with a moral) to be an analogue of.


I'm curious about this as well.
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Postby qu4d » Fri Nov 14, 2014 6:21 am

And I am curious why you are still avoiding some of my questions. Seems childish.

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Postby pwhodges » Fri Nov 14, 2014 6:36 am

View Original Postqu4d wrote:Seems childish.

As does going on about it.

It is plain that Bagheera takes the words of the title to have the meaning expressed by those words. I have given my interpretation of the parentheses which is consistent with what happens in the film, which maybe he accepts as possible, as he's not popped up to contradict it [shrug].
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Postby qu4d » Fri Nov 14, 2014 6:44 am

I didn't ask you. You already gave an answer.

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Postby pwhodges » Fri Nov 14, 2014 6:48 am

Perhaps he can't be bothered; he doesn't have to, you know - this is just a forum.

Move on.
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Postby qu4d » Fri Nov 14, 2014 6:53 am

Erm... but he demands answers by other people. Why should people talk to him anymore? They don't have to, you know? It's a forum. And then they say that they won't - he tells them it's childish. I should move on? Why shouldn't Bagheera finally move on?

Seems like a double standard to me.

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Postby pwhodges » Fri Nov 14, 2014 7:02 am

This argument is entirely about the applicability of different items of evidence. There is strong evidence, weak evidence, circumstantial evidence - all sorts. Some people try to judge the importance of each item by weighting it according to its nature and strength to try to find the overall answer with the highest probability of being correct; but others appear take the items they are interested by as being the most important regardless, in what seems an uncritical manner.

This is why I posed the question of why loop theories seem so appealing, or even important, to some people.

As far as the forum goes, it's all just words either way - though I know which kind of person I'd rather have write, say, a risk analysis for me!
"Being human, having your health; that's what's important." (from: Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi )
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