Loop Theories and How They Work

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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Postby qu4d » Wed Nov 12, 2014 12:01 pm

:asuka_thumbsup:

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Postby Bagheera » Wed Nov 12, 2014 12:28 pm

View Original PostSachi wrote:I think escaping the loop is the lesson to be learned. Say that NTE is a self-contained loop, and say that the iteration we're seeing is the final loop (as in, the loop is broken by the end). The regressive choice is to choose the loop, forgetting everything and repeating the same mistakes again, which would presumably be what Shinji had done in the past. ("Yeah, kid, go ahead and try again, but the past is just going to repeat itself"). The correct and productive choice for Shinji when offered the possibility of a loop is to acknowledge that repeating everything isn't going to do him any good, and that he should push forward into the future and live on carrying his experiences, rather than simply pressing the reset button. Is that not a viable lesson to be told with loop theory?


Why would Anno bother with that when he can just revisit Instrumentality instead? He establishes the exact same lesson without needless complications.
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Postby qu4d » Wed Nov 12, 2014 12:37 pm

Please answer me!

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Postby Sachi » Wed Nov 12, 2014 12:37 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Why would Anno bother with that when he can just revisit Instrumentality instead? He establishes the exact same lesson without needless complications.

... Why not? :uhh: And who's to say Instrumentality is not a part of the process? It sort of had that implied potential even in the original canon. We'll just have to wait and see.

I'm no major proponent of loop theory by any means, but I do think there is potential to be had out of the concept within the Evaverse. It would be an interesting path to explore, and I wouldn't mind seeing it if it happened, but at the same time I don't really care that much. I just want to enjoy Final for what it is, whatever it has to offer.
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Postby Bagheera » Wed Nov 12, 2014 12:51 pm

View Original PostSachi wrote:... Why not? :uhh: And who's to say Instrumentality is not a part of the process? It sort of had that implied potential even in the original canon. We'll just have to wait and see.

I'm no major proponent of loop theory by any means, but I do think there is potential to be had out of the concept within the Evaverse. It would be an interesting path to explore, and I wouldn't mind seeing it if it happened, but at the same time I don't really care that much. I just want to enjoy Final for what it is, whatever it has to offer.


Well, I can get behind that. If Anno things he can get something out of it somehow, so be it. I just haven't seen any indication he's going that route, but who knows?

qu4d: I already explained my reasoning. I don't really have anything to add beyond that.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
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Postby qu4d » Wed Nov 12, 2014 12:54 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:qu4d: I already explained my reasoning. I don't really have anything to add beyond that.


Nooooo... I'd just like to know what you mean by that. I am not sure how you read that movie title.

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Postby pwhodges » Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:10 pm

You ask about the interpretation of the parentheses, I presume? My take is that you may think you can do what the words outside the parentheses say, but in fact the "not" is required to correct your misconception.

You can (not) redo = you think you can redo, but in fact you cannot.
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Postby qu4d » Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:19 pm

Yes, that is what I am talking about... because I don't see how this can be an argument for or against something.

My take is that you may think you can do what the words outside the parentheses say, but in fact the "not" is required to correct your misconception. You can (not) redo = you think you can redo, but in fact you cannot.


This is your take and that's fine. My problem is that Bagheera (at least it seems to me that way) sees his interpretation as a fact. "You can (not) redo" is hardly explicit. Like all those titles it can be read in different ways.

It can have a double meaning. Like... Kaworu tells Shinji in 3.0 that he can't redo what he has done in 2.0 - turning back time 14 years again is not possible.

But redoing everything (via a loop) could be possible. "You can redo" and "You can not redo" can both be correct titles - it just depends how you apply those titles to different parts of the story.

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Postby pwhodges » Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:36 pm

I can see that possibility - though I would feel more comfortable with an interpretation that could be applied uniformly across the titles. Not saying that couldn't be wrong, though.

In any case, this doubt is why I tried to consider how a loop or retry would play in terms of the message. Again, I'm not comfortable with it on the basis of the evidence we already have. But (one day!) we shall see...
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:39 pm

View Original PostJäeger wrote:It would be the same failure the manga ending did : what is the point of Shinji's hapinness if he is a different character??? He has learnt ANYTHING.

View Original Postpwhodges wrote:Of course, learning how to fix and avoid problems is good. But perhaps it is arguable whether that knowledge is really necessary once the fix has been executed?

Yes, I'm stirring a bit here, I admit. :devil:

I haven’t read the ending to the manga yet, so I’ll judge how that concept is dealt in that ending when it gets an official States release.

But as for the concept of an amnesia/loop/went-back-in-time-and-fixed-everything ending in it of itself, I do think there can be something special gleamed when taking in a piece of media that suggests that you, the audience members, are the only ones who know what really happened in the story, and that no one else does. It’s like a secret that you and the narrator share that not even the characters within the narrative are aware of. Just that concept alone has interested me for a while now, and I believe that it can make the audience feel very special of handled properly. This isn’t to say that I agree with every ending that takes on this form. Rather, I’m only stating that there can be an argument to it being used properly in a piece of narrative fiction.

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My "The Universe Reborn Dogma" (Loop Theory)

Postby qu4d » Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:57 pm

[Merged in, cuz it's a loop theory. - Monk]
[center]The Universe Reborn Dogma (aka T.U.R.D. - get it?)[/center]

The concept:
NGE and NTE are connected, but not in the way of a standard sequel - more on another (meta) layer.

How does it work:
A few years ago, there was a special event. Let's call it The Big Bang, the birth of the universe. And since that point the universe expands and expands, but we don't know what will happen as a result of that. Speculation runs wild, maybe there will be a Big Rip or a Big Crunch. There are quite a few possibilities about the ultimate fate -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_fate_of_the_universe At some point, the universe might die - but our understanding of being born and dying might be to limited, because we don't know what came before and what will come after. Even if we find out, that answer might not help, because this just leads to another question. Remember when 3.0+1.0 was announced with the additional kanji? It says something like "without origin", "no beginning" or "nonexistent origin". This just might be the answer to the question. The universe has no origin, no beginning - it just is. Like a cycle. It has no end point. The beginning equals the end. The death of the universe might just be its birth.

What this means for Evangelion:
NGE happened. At some point there was the Big Bang, billions of years passed, Shinji was born and at an unknown point in time he dies, just like the universe a few billion years later. As a result of that, the universe is reborn, known to us as NTE. Kaworu (he might not be the only one) is aware of this cycle and the universe of NGE. In 1.11 he awakes and knows: "The third again... you never change, do you?". He remembers and he has one goal: doing it right this time (end of 2.22). In 3.33, he learns that he failed and accepts that. Right before he dies, he tells Shinji, that they will meet again. If the universe is reborn, this might turn out to be true and they will see each other again.

When Kaworu and Shinji play piano, Kaworu tells Shinji, that he has to do stuff over and over again, until he is satisfied with the result. Without that, nothing will ever change.

"But that's impossible, isn't it?!"
Well... that depends how you see things. Assuming that reincarnation might be a thing. Take for example the Dalai Lama. Some people think he is the reincarnation of somebody, who died earlier. How would you answer the question, whether he is the same? Is it "him" or not? The answer might be: yes he is, and no he isn't. Both answers are correct at the same time. Think of Schrödinger's cat. That cat in the box with poison. It is dead and alive at the same time. Schrödinger's cat is (not) alive.

So when talking about... anything from NGE and NTE. Is Shinji from NGE the same Shinji from NTE or not? Simple answer: Both. Shinji is (not) the same. Shinji very likely died at some point after EoE. That's just how life goes. Everybody dies. But he might be reincarnated as Shinji in NTE.

Random thought:
Ever thought about Rei? Assuming Rei got the ability to transcend time and space (Beginning of Episode 01 and End of EoE) - what if the Quantum!Rei from NGE is the one that we see at the beginning of 1.11 and in 3.33, when Rei sees her, while she is in the Reiquarium?

[quotes, images and further stuff might be added later]

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Postby ElMariachi » Wed Nov 12, 2014 3:48 pm

View Original PostSachi wrote:I think escaping the loop is the lesson to be learned. Say that NTE is a self-contained loop, and say that the iteration we're seeing is the final loop (as in, the loop is broken by the end). The regressive choice is to choose the loop, forgetting everything and repeating the same mistakes again, which would presumably be what Shinji had done in the past. ("Yeah, kid, go ahead and try again, but the past is just going to repeat itself"). The correct and productive choice for Shinji when offered the possibility of a loop is to acknowledge that repeating everything isn't going to do him any good, and that he should push forward into the future and live on carrying his experiences, rather than simply pressing the reset button. Is that not a viable lesson to be told with loop theory?

3.0 wrote:00:45:17 {Shinji} Well, how do I make music that sounds even better?
00:45:21 {Kaworu} Practice and more practice.
00:55:32 {Kaworu} Do the same thing over and over.
00:55:34 {Kaworu} Keep going until you're happy with it.
00:55:38 {Kaworu} That's the only way.

There's kind of a contradiction here.
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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Wed Nov 12, 2014 3:51 pm

It could even be Anno going all meta and commenting on Evangelion.

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Postby Sachi » Wed Nov 12, 2014 4:17 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:There's kind of a contradiction here.

No, there's not, and I'm sure that you know that there's not. Kaworu is demonstrating to Shinji a fundamental part of growth and well-being through practice, repetition and effort. This is a valuable lesson when it comes to developing a skill or learning something new. It can also be an important habit-forming tool for those trying to overcome their own depression.

The loop theory doesn't involve retaining information with each successive cycle (instead it involves a literal regression) and therefore isn't an equivalent comparison; one involves building atop past experiences in order to grow, and the other is repeating past experiences and getting the same result.

Kaworu's lesson is actually rather more supportive of breaking out of the loop than it is maintaining the loop. I don't know where you're seeing the contradiction.
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Postby AuraTwilight » Wed Nov 12, 2014 4:34 pm

View Original Postqu4d wrote:The Universe Reborn Dogma(snip)

Even if the universes aren't otherwise connected, I always did like the idea that Rei and Kaworu became cosmic entities of some sort after End of Evangelion. Kaworu sure as hell is aware of all universes in Super Robot Wars and most of the spin-off mangas.
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Postby ElMariachi » Wed Nov 12, 2014 5:20 pm

View Original PostSachi wrote:The loop theory doesn't involve retaining information with each successive cycle (instead it involves a literal regression) and therefore isn't an equivalent comparison; one involves building atop past experiences in order to grow, and the other is repeating past experiences and getting the same result.

But again, how is anyone supposed to realize the errors from the past if they can't remember their past experience? Then they are bound to just repeat the same errors and get back to square one.
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Postby Sachi » Wed Nov 12, 2014 5:33 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:But again, how is anyone supposed to realize the errors from the past if they can't remember their past experience? Then they are bound to just repeat the same errors and get back to square one.

Which is exactly why choosing to loop would be the bad end. Choosing to break out of the loop would be the good end.
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Postby pwhodges » Wed Nov 12, 2014 5:40 pm

As I said: Endless Eight shows a loop that works (though only after 15,532 iterations). Even though Kyon is aware of it, he fails to break out until he does something different; but since he doesn't remember any previous loop he has no clue as to what might be worth trying to change. Presumably his memory of that final iteration continues, so at least he knows the right thing now, even though he may no longer remember what the wrong thing was. So how memory is handled is crucial to whether the loop can actually be said to provide any learning experience at all.
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Postby Jäeger » Thu Nov 13, 2014 3:53 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:I haven’t read the ending to the manga yet, so I’ll judge how that concept is dealt in that ending when it gets an official States release.

But as for the concept of an amnesia/loop/went-back-in-time-and-fixed-everything ending in it of itself, I do think there can be something special gleamed when taking in a piece of media that suggests that you, the audience members, are the only ones who know what really happened in the story, and that no one else does. It’s like a secret that you and the narrator share that not even the characters within the narrative are aware of. Just that concept alone has interested me for a while now, and I believe that it can make the audience feel very special of handled properly. This isn’t to say that I agree with every ending that takes on this form. Rather, I’m only stating that there can be an argument to it being used properly in a piece of narrative fiction.


But still the audicence knows he is a different character. If the narrator wants to tell us about learning from mistakes....what's the point in erasing the memories and reborn a la Sadamanga?? It brings me memories about ALien Resurrection : no matter how she looks, no matter what she does, SHE IS NOT RIPLEY.

EoE did great : you cannot escape from reality.

And remember : its not the same a loop theory the way qu4d explained (which I could accept) than talking about a a reset after EoE, because it's just stupid and sensless : it's not the same world, not the same settings and background. A real reset goes back to the exact start point. And of course EoE ends how it ends, not the same way Sadamanga did. In the manga Rei takes control over nstrumentality and makes the human souls reborn in the samw world, without memories from theire past selves. Quite the opposite in EoE.

As I said: Endless Eight shows a loop that works (though only after 15,532 iterations). Even though Kyon is aware of it, he fails to break out until he does something different; but since he doesn't remember any previous loop he has no clue as to what might be worth trying to change. Presumably his memory of that final iteration continues, so at least he knows the right thing now, even though he may no longer remember what the wrong thing was. So how memory is handled is crucial to whether the loop can actually be said to provide any learning experience at all.


Not the same : it's a reset , quite the oposite to the loop theory qu4d explained. He starts from the same moment every time, same background, same characters, it's the same day and hour everytime. It's not a time loop, it's the groundhog day. An easy example : Endeless eight it's like erasing W7 from your computer and installing itagain. NTE's loop theory would be buying a new computer with W8. The look very similar, but there are a lot of subtle changes that make them a different experience and it has nothing to do with whatever the customer does.

They are not reincarnations in a similar but different setting the way we're talking about NTE. You could have memories from that incarnation, but you are not the same character. Those who played Xenogears know what I'm talking about, because it's the best example by far.


And I stick to AU, because wouln't be it's first time in EVA.
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Postby ElMariachi » Thu Nov 13, 2014 4:48 am

^
You're mixing things: Freaky isn't answering to Qu4d's theory about NTE being in the next universe born after the death of the previous one, but to UnitM and Sachi's, who believe in a more "classical" time loop, Endless Eight style.

But even if Qu4d theory was right, what would be the interest? What could the characters learn from knowing that untold billions of years ago others them from a previous universe existed and that they are acting in ways similar than back then? Is Shinji supposed to fight that to prevent it to happen? He'll try to stop the freaking heat death of the universe? How, will he don a white bunnycat costume and find prepubescent girls to make them become Magical Girls?

What would be the point behind that, a half-assed way to explain how Kaworu know Shinji and is obsessed by him from the moment he awoke?
Last edited by ElMariachi on Fri Nov 14, 2014 3:48 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
EoTV is a therapist, EoE is a drill instructor. -- Chuckman
Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger


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