Loop Theories and How They Work

[qu4d]

But that thread could be closed after everyone has made their contribution - to have the thread as a point of reference. For like... well... when somebody says: "I think, Anno uses a timeloop. Read the explanation of the mechanics behind it with quotes and assumed hints in this thread."

And yeah... I don't know how many different theories/concepts are out there. But there needs so be some disambiguation between those, because of threads like this one. I think NGE and NTE might be connected, but I would argue with the idea of a "sequel". You know what I mean? People get confused.

[Jäeger]

But that thread could be closed after everyone has made their contribution - to have the thread as a point of reference. For like... well... when somebody says: "I think, Anno uses a timeloop. Read the explanation of the mechanics behind it with quotes and assumed hints in this thread."

And yeah... I don't know how many different theories/concepts are out there. But there needs so be some disambiguation between those, because of threads like this one. I think NGE and NTE might be connected, but I would argue with the idea of a "sequel". You know what I mean? People get confused.

I understand what you mean, It has sense, and your arguments are fine. The time loop theory has it's point and I don't think it affects NGE continuity, except for Kaworu being a witness. Still, I bet for alternate continuity/universe, an aspect that was present in the original series.

But the people that talk about a direct sequel from EoE?? The biggest BS I've ever heard and I'll never waste a second of my life hearing their BS, because it's just based en callbacks and references which have been debunked one by one. It's like saying that Star Wars and Star Trek take place in the same universe because Millenium Falcon makes a cameo in JJ Abrams reboot.

[Nuclear Lunchbox]

But that thread could be closed after everyone has made their contribution - to have the thread as a point of reference. For like... well... when somebody says: "I think, Anno uses a timeloop. Read the explanation of the mechanics behind it with quotes and assumed hints in this thread."

Then somebody can just go and make one. The mods don't have to sticky something for it to take off, I find. Bagheera made a splendid post about how Impacts occurred over here, so I would recommend you look through it if you want to see a good example of explaining a theory.

[unitM]

Like what? Apart from Kaworu's lines (which are annoyingly vague and cryptic) I'm not seeing anything at all, either in the movies or the supplementary materials. If there is something, point it out!

To start, let's be real with something: while some of Kaworu's lines were vague, many of them were not. When Kaworu states that he recognizes the Third again, there is nothing cryptic about that. He recognizes Shinji from a previous setting. The way he uses his words - "the Third again" and "this time I'll make you happy" heavily suggests that Kaworu is from another time and place, and not just another one of Shinji's childhood friends. After all, in NGE, Kaworu spent a considerable amount of intimate time with Shinji. It's not a terrible jump to say that Kaworu's reference to Shinji's happiness from a past time is in fact NGE Shinji's happiness.

The DSS being amended into the SDSS is another potential example of a reference to a loop theory. In NGE, we had the DSS, a parchment that depicted the correct way to end the world, based on the life forms that arrived on Earth before mankind. In NTE, we have the SDSS, as well as a number of additional rules and contracts that Lilin need to complete with Lilith. Instrumentality appeared to be rejected in EOE, so the idea of there being unfulfilled obligations with Lilith is plausible, since Lilith was one of the stars of instrumentality.

A loop theory certainly seemed a little less credible before 3. The talks of infinite provided stabler grounds for a loop theory to flourish in, since what was brought up essentially drew a strong connection between infinite and instrumentality. If we're talking about the suggestion of looping, 3 is full of references to that.

Yeah, but which past Shinji? NGE? NTE? How is the notion he knew Shinji as a kid any more outlandish than a loop theory? How is the notion that it's just a joke on the part of Khara referring to Kaworu's established knowledge of other AUs any more outlandish? Why is a sequel/loop the better solution?

The past Shinji that Kaworu would be referring to would be EoE Shinji. The reasoning is simple: EoE Shinji did not accept instrumentality, and at the end of the movie, just before the final beach scene, we see Shinji returning to a more realistic setting with the script of something like "I still don't know where my happiness." In EoE, Kaworu played a very big role in dampening Shinji's ego. About the same time we see him pop up from the waist of GNR, we see Shinji go from fucked to "oh it's Kaworu."

But how does any of that suggest looping? I admit, with all the craziness in Q looping wouldn't be beyond the pale, but there's a difference between saying "this is theoretically possible" and "this is what the movies suggest." So, at this point, are we articulating something the movies suggest is happening, or are we carving out space for something we want to happen? It seems to me that what we're seeing is the latter.

With all the mentions of infinite in Q, I think it's more suggested than a theoretical possibility we're all jumping to.

WTF??? I can understand that Kaworu's words could suggest a time loop theory or ANYTHING, starting from an AU. It could be an explanation, but it's not something the movie suggest. But the failures of infinity??? How can they suggest anything?? First time I've heard something like that, because IMO it has no sense. Why?? Seriously : Where do you find connections? They have nothing to do with time and space.

After Abrahams Star Trek reboot I know connection two separate continuities it's possible, and I could accept the loop theory because calling "sequel" events that take millions of years in the future, starring reincarnations, it's very....openminded. But using the presence of NGE in the OFFICIAL EVANGELION WEBSITE after Khara gets the copyright as an argument for the "sequel/time loop theory" it's the shittiest argument ever. And I've heard a lot of shitty theories. Sorry if I sound harsh, but if people who support the time loop theory want to be taken seriously, at least don't fight logic.

Firstly, logic is not something you fight against. Fighting is actually the antithesis of logic. Logic is just a foundation to explain things.

The Failures of Infinity have a lot to do with time and space, and it's great that you brought those two Euclidean terms up, because it relates a lot to what I'm about to say. The Failures of Infinity are stated to be the way they are because they simply failed to achieve infinity. What infinity is is up for grabs. However, from previous instances of instrumentality, we can gather two important points:

• Instrumentality is the dissolution of all AT fields. All organisms have one, and by removing them, all organisms become one. The AT field is what separates souls and builds up organisms into solid matter.
  
• Because instrumentality removes the limits to one's heart(in the way mentioned above), when Shinji experienced instrumentality both times, he realized that he was able to manipulate his point of view altogether. This was possible because if every mind is one, this gives room for infinite alternate realities.

We also know that on the break of instrumentality, everyone regains their one perspective. This was the trigger for Shinji to break instrumentality in EoE. However, if instrumentality is not broken, then the collection of souls would, assumingly, operate in a pattern of infinite perspectives. There are no barriers between people and walls serve as a way of dictating resource management. Without walls, there is no difference between people or souls. Without private property, in it's most basic and primitive sense, there would be a state of infinite presence.

So you see, instrumentality and infinity have a lot of close relations. Instrumentality was broken in EoE because Shinji did not want to accept infinity as a state of life. He found that existing in a lifeless(if we define life by progress) blissful state was worse than living with pain and all those other bad feelings, so he rejected it. Initially though, he was willing to become one with the infinite void. This is why he was such a great catalyst for instrumentality.

What's unique about the Failures of Infinity, though, is not that they exist, but their stature. They're all inactive but frozen in a position of movement. The implication here is that at one point they were mobile. The conclusion I am drawn towards is that these units all had a goal of reaching instrumentality but were unable to. There are crazy amounts of Eva-sized skulls littering Lilith's lair too, suggesting that this is a process that has been going on for awhile.

Failures of Infinity don't conclude that NTE is a sequel but it certainly tells us that many creatures aside from Shinji were all craving "infinity." They weren't able to make it, in the same sense that Shinji wasn't able to complete it in EoE, so their heads were lopped off. [/list]

[Bagheera]

To start, let's be real with something: while some of Kaworu's lines were vague, many of them were not. When Kaworu states that he recognizes the Third again, there is nothing cryptic about that. He recognizes Shinji from a previous setting. The way he uses his words - "the Third again" and "this time I'll make you happy" heavily suggests that Kaworu is from another time and place, and not just another one of Shinji's childhood friends.

If we're "being real" I don't see how it suggests that at all. I can't see any specificity to it whatsoever, and certainly nothing to suggest a time loop is in play. It suggests Kaworu has seen Shinji before. That's all. it suggests nothing at all re: the specifics of the matter.

After all, in NGE, Kaworu spent a considerable amount of intimate time with Shinji. It's not a terrible jump to say that Kaworu's reference to Shinji's happiness from a past time is in fact NGE Shinji's happiness.

And I disagree, particularly since Shinji got what he (said he) wanted in EoE.

The DSS being amended into the SDSS is another potential example of a reference to a loop theory. In NGE, we had the DSS, a parchment that depicted the correct way to end the world, based on the life forms that arrived on Earth before mankind. In NTE, we have the SDSS, as well as a number of additional rules and contracts that Lilin need to complete with Lilith. Instrumentality appeared to be rejected in EOE, so the idea of there being unfulfilled obligations with Lilith is plausible, since Lilith was one of the stars of instrumentality.

Erm. No, you have that wrong. In real life we have the DSS (the Dead Sea Scrolls; yes, they are a real thing). In NGE we have the SDSS, and these are reused in the NTE. In NGE the SDSS are a manual describing how the Seeds of Life work. We don't know what they are in the NTE, but again, I'm not seeing anything suggesting looping is going on. Seele had their contract with Lilith, Gendo amended it. How does that tie back to the original series? How does it even suggest a loop?

A loop theory certainly seemed a little less credible before 3. The talks of infinite provided stabler grounds for a loop theory to flourish in, since what was brought up essentially drew a strong connection between infinite and instrumentality. If we're talking about the suggestion of looping, 3 is full of references to that.

Like what?

The past Shinji that Kaworu would be referring to would be EoE Shinji. The reasoning is simple: EoE Shinji did not accept instrumentality, and at the end of the movie, just before the final beach scene, we see Shinji returning to a more realistic setting with the script of something like "I still don't know where my happiness." In EoE, Kaworu played a very big role in dampening Shinji's ego. About the same time we see him pop up from the waist of GNR, we see Shinji go from fucked to "oh it's Kaworu."

Not seeing how that's relevant, honestly.

With all the mentions of infinite in Q, I think it's more suggested than a theoretical possibility we're all jumping to.

What does infinite have to do with anything? Time loops and infinite are separate things, and AFAICT are not really related in any meaningful sense.

[pwhodges]

I'm more interested to hear whether any of these theories of sequel or timeloop bring anything to the table in terms of enhancing or enabling lessons to be learned from the films as a whole. Obviously they don't reflect back to the series + EoE as that was completed long before the films were conceived. But how are whatever life lessons that will be given by the films likely to be improved by such story-telling?

[Nuclear Lunchbox]

Any lessons to be gleaned from looping probably won't become apparent until Shin comes out and gives us some sort of conclusion, in which case we can search for lessons that would come from our characters looping around to said ending.

[Jäeger]

To start, let's be real with something: (snip)

You have written a lot, but you haven't answer anything. You have made up your theory, but has nothing to do with what the movie shows and tells us. You have dumped a lot of info we already knew, just that. No explanation anywhere.

What Shinji wished in EoE was infinity?? Where does came from?? And what has to do infinity with time loop???

[pwhodges]

we can search for lessons that would come from our characters looping around to said ending.

I don't see anything in real life that looping would be an appropriate analogy for, though. Hence my scepticism that it will be used in this context.

[Sachi]

I don't see anything in real life that looping would be an appropriate analogy for, though. Hence my scepticism that it will be used in this context.

Depression, getting caught in an endless cycle, repeating the same mistakes, and never progressing. Rebuild's established trend of You Are (Not) Alone, You Can (Not) Redo, etc also fits well with the theme of the depression and overcoming it. Final may offer Shinji a real chance at breaking free from the vicious cycle of depression and allow him to finally move forward.

[pwhodges]

OK, I can see a possibility there...

[ElMariachi]

The problem with that interpretation is that unlike with depression, with a time loop Shinji and the rest of the cast (bar Kaworu maybe) don't remember their previous loops, so how is Shinji supposed to draw lessons from his pasts errors and bouts of depression if he can't remember them?

That will bound him to make the same mistakes over and over again, until an external force (here EVA-01 acting in ways unprecedented) derails completely the "script", which again won't be Shinji taking action at all, and again can't be really used as a metaphor of people helping him to break out of his spiral of depression ad self-hatred, since in real life depressive people have the memories of their past errors to work on it and get better.

[pwhodges]

Yes, you're right; there would need to be at least a hint of knowledge of the loop to lead towards its resolution - as Kyon has in Endless Eight.

[Jäeger]

It would be the same failure the manga ending did : what is the point of Shinji's hapinness if he is a different character??? He has learnt ANYTHING.

[Rosenakahara]

It would be the same failure the manga ending did : what is the point of Shinji's hapinness if he is a different character??? He has learnt ANYTHING.

TRUTH

[Jäeger]

Yes, you're right; there would need to be at least a hint of knowledge of the loop to lead towards its resolution - as Kyon has in Endless Eight.

That would me bringing back memories of former incarnations, included what happened after EoE....and we'll never see that. If there is a time loop, only the viewer will know if Shinji has leaarnt anything. ANd still a different character.

[pwhodges]

Of course, learning how to fix and avoid problems is good. But perhaps it is arguable whether that knowledge is really necessary once the fix has been executed?

Yes, I'm stirring a bit here, I admit.

[Bagheera]

Depression, getting caught in an endless cycle, repeating the same mistakes, and never progressing. Rebuild's established trend of You Are (Not) Alone, You Can (Not) Redo, etc also fits well with the theme of the depression and overcoming it. Final may offer Shinji a real chance at breaking free from the vicious cycle of depression and allow him to finally move forward.

The main problem I have with this approach is that it's fairly explicitly a redo. It's literally starting over and going through the same series of events again, and that's what a redo is. And yet, we're told very explicitly You Can (Not) Redo."

Also, what El said.

[qu4d]

And yet, we're told very explicitly You Can (Not) Redo."

What are you trying to say with that?

[Sachi]

The main problem I have with this approach is that it's fairly explicitly a redo. It's literally starting over and going through the same series of events again, and that's what a redo is. And yet, we're told very explicitly You Can (Not) Redo."

I think escaping the loop is the lesson to be learned. Say that NTE is a self-contained loop, and say that the iteration we're seeing is the final loop (as in, the loop is broken by the end). The regressive choice is to choose the loop, forgetting everything and repeating the same mistakes again, which would presumably be what Shinji had done in the past. ("Yeah, kid, go ahead and try again, but the past is just going to repeat itself"). The correct and productive choice for Shinji when offered the possibility of a loop is to acknowledge that repeating everything isn't going to do him any good, and that he should push forward into the future and live on carrying his experiences, rather than simply pressing the reset button. Is that not a viable lesson to be told with loop theory?