Your Brain will kill you: Pulling the Spears and Realism

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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ElMariachi
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Postby ElMariachi » Wed Dec 25, 2013 5:21 pm

^
Well... I admit that it's the first time I saw "sex" as an argument about Shinji's actions! :bigeyes:
I don't think that Shinji wanted to make a great feat showing off his virility, but simply that he wanted to gain the forgiveness of the only people who ever showed him love and caring(Misato and Asuka), and that it obsessed him to the point of complete delusion.

And even if most his decisions and choices in life are ultimately out of his power due to manipulation in the shadows from his father(where he lived until arriving in Tokyo-3, becoming an Eva pilot, staying or resigning, getting close to Rei(although there is a part of genuine caring between them)), there is still one moment where Shinji was completely free of deciding and thus totally responsible of his choices and acts, and that was when Asuka ended out of battery and Kaworu's controls were cut : here Shinji was the only master aboard, the decision to move and pull out the spears, surrender or trying to think of a third option was his alone... and he decided to go against Asuka's and Kaworu's pleas and bet on the spears, with the consequences we know...

Sure Shinji has character flaws that naturally stirred him toward that path of actions, and Gendo is implied to have broke his son's sanity to maximize the chances that he desperately cling to the hope of repairing everything with the spears, but those are at best attenuating circumstances : Shinji let again his emotions override his judgment and ended being Gendo's perfect puppet, and if he wants to be truly free of the risk of being further manipulated and become someone who won't need to be constantly on a thigh leash because he's a potential danger for everyone he cares for and himself, he'll need to learn to correct that flaw, or else he'll remain a "brat" for the rest of his life.
Last edited by ElMariachi on Thu Dec 26, 2013 7:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Reichu » Wed Dec 25, 2013 9:58 pm

View Original PostunitM wrote:To drop a bit of an evolutionary perspective on Shinji's poor decision-making, before I begin, you must accept that sex is the reason that people do anything. This may seem like an oversimplification of human behavior but it is not.

May as well go one step further, and attribute everything about the characters' behavior to the chemical interactions of the atoms composing their bodies and everything else.
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Postby ElMariachi » Thu Dec 26, 2013 9:39 am

^
Here we have the true culprit behind the end of the world : Chemistry!
I knew that Chemistry was evil, Breaking Bad already warned us about it! :fistshake:
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Postby unitM » Sat Dec 28, 2013 2:48 pm

I'm attributing his actions to sexuality because Anno toys with sexuality a lot in the series and because, right before he commits to a great feat, he throws a girl, whom he expressed close intimate relations with, off a hill. We can attribute his actions to chemical reactions but unless Anno points us in that direction, imo that's a cop out.

Reproduction is often an unconscious drive. Our bodies, in accordance with theories of evolution, are vehicles for our genes to get passed on. Our genes, moreso than our bodies or our minds, are often in control of our actions and behaviors. However, I think this theory isn't used by Anno much. Anno falls back onto Freud a lot, particularly thanatos and eros(the drive for death and love, respectively) and the example of Shinji pushing Asuka off a hill was a push towards thanatos(the end, and rebirth, of the world) and also, to a lesser extent, eros(Shinji's drive for love, which he could find very little of in the present but longed for in the past).

Still, I think an evolutionary perspective is worth considering. Asuka even comments on how Shinji hit a girl when he threw her off, which I find a throwback to such a perspective.

Those arguing that Shinji was free to make his decisions are not right. Shinji's actions were underneath heavy manipulation. He was not free to choose any possible course of action. He was rushed into an Eva with the promise of returning to a better time by someone he looks up to. That is impulsive behavior and impulsiveness is very different from being rational. When he enters the Terminal Dogma with Kaworu, he even gives us insight into his own head, saying something along the lines of "we're already here, let's pull out the spears."

The formula for manipulation in this case is very simple, as it's repeated with Rei Q. Shinji is confused and shaken upon waking from his sleep. Nothing is the same. His past friends(see: people he identified with) reject him almost immediately, to the point where he's in shackles and left empty on the 14 years he missed. Suddenly, Rei, someone he feels affectionate towards, busts through the wall and tells Shinji that she's here to save him. The formula is simple, to the point where it's even used by professionals in the modern day: you make an individual dis-identify with people that they care for or people that they identify with and then you introduce someone else who will "show the way" to the first person, who at that point is lost and confused.

1. Shinji wakes up -> Everyone, including Shinji's friends, hates Shinji -> Shinji escapes with someone he identifies with(Rei)

2. Shinji is put through heavy social withdrawal and isolation at Nerv's base, Rei Q isn't the Rei Shinji remembers, Fuyu reveals Shinji's extremely sensitive past to him, Shinji's father is still a dick, Kaworu reveals that Shinji is responsible for unexplainable yet presumably-terrible acts against humanity -> Shinji is promised a way to save the world by Kaworu, one of the only sources of socialization he was offered since his stay at Nerv base and someone he looks up to

Shinji was free to choose only if you fail to notice the lingering cloud above him. I'm not even going into his childhood either, which adds a lot more into Shinji's freedom of choice. Shinji was not free to choose. He was impulsively forced into an Evangelion, with further locked out his other pilot when he was making a bad decision. His bad decision, to Shinji, looked like a good decision, because like a cornered animal, he didn't know where to turn. Everything about his past was destroyed, if not provided a lot of pain for Shinji to approach. Suddenly, a responsible gentleman who is about the same age as Shinji shows up and tells Shinji that they can fix things together. Hmm, tough one guys.

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Postby ElMariachi » Sat Dec 28, 2013 5:06 pm

View Original PostunitM wrote:I'm attributing his actions to sexuality because Anno toys with sexuality a lot in the series and because, right before he commits to a great feat, he throws a girl, whom he expressed close intimate relations with, off a hill. We can attribute his actions to chemical reactions but unless Anno points us in that direction, imo that's a cop out.

It's more simple than that : Shinji hit Asuka because she spent the last 5 minutes trying to impale him with a giant naginata, and he needed to put distance between them so he could go grab the spears. Before that he was trying repetitively to avoid having to fight and harm Asuka, not really an act of great feat fueled by sexuality.


View Original PostunitM wrote:Still, I think an evolutionary perspective is worth considering. Asuka even comments on how Shinji hit a girl when he threw her off, which I find a throwback to such a perspective.

That line seemed more like comical than anything else for me, I mean she tried to skewer him with a a building-sized naginata for the past 5 minutes and she complains when he lands one blow? That's really hypocrite! :lol:


View Original PostunitM wrote: Those arguing that Shinji was free to make his decisions are not right. Shinji's actions were underneath heavy manipulation. He was not free to choose any possible course of action. Snip

Oh don't worry, I'm wholly conscious that Shinji was completely manipulated and that most of his choices were already made for him since probably Yui's disappearance, if not even earlier(the subversions being when he resigned after Bardiel and when he decided to come back to save Rei, and even then that was all benefiting Gendo's plans), and that Gendo maximized his chance of Shinji making the wrong decision(pulling out the spears) by isolating him(with only having Kaworu's company) and crushing his sanity, and by playing with Shinji's personal flaws(tendency to narrow-mindedness and extreme stubbornness when pushed too much), but that doesn't change the fact that these are only attenuating circumstances, because at the moment he decided to ignore everyone and still go for the spears not only was he the only one piloting EVA-13, and so the complete master of the situation, but also unlike all the other times, he knows about Gendo's treacherous nature, of how he's conspiring to destroy the world and manipulated him to further his plans, and thus should know that when Kaworu, the person who has gone as far as to take off his bomb collar and put it on himself to prove him that he's not like Gendo and could be trusted, tells him that they should stop because he has a bad feeling and then outright begs him to stop, he should have listened to him.

But he let his emotions and his old flaws control him and was acted as Gendo's perfect little puppet, and that's his responsibility.

But the attenuating circumstances I cited before is also what makes me think that Misato will show some understanding and leniency to Shinji in FINAL and acknowledge the shitty circumstances he was put into... while not absolving him of his responsibility.
And I think that even Asuka showed some understanding of Shinji's situation in the end of the movie, which is why she took upon herself to save him and drag him with her in her journey to find a place to be rescued.
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Postby unitM » Sat Dec 28, 2013 5:30 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:It's more simple than that : Shinji hit Asuka because she spent the last 5 minutes trying to impale him with a giant naginata, and he needed to put distance between them so he could go grab the spears. Before that he was trying repetitively to avoid having to fight and harm Asuka, not really an act of great feat fueled by sexuality.

I'm not suggesting my theory is correct. I am simply offering an alternative perspective to what people have been saying. Ultimately, imo, it comes down to Shinji being very stressed out, but I still think Shinji shoving Asuka off a cliff is important, and in more ways than "this b!%$# is about to kill me!"

Don't put the horse in front of the cart though. Shinji's great act that was fueled by sexuality was the perceived event of pulling of the spears. Shinji shoving Asuka off a hill was a testosterone-filled act of aggression. One accepted principle of human sexuality right now is that the world revolves around sexuality and people do things to pass on their genes. Great feats of strength were, in the past, accompanied by great sex. Anno even leaves in a bit of the scene of Shinji pulling out the spears to show how much drive he put into removing them. It is a possibility that Shinji unconsciously made the above association. To go a little further, Shinji's longing to return to the past, to somewhere where people liked him, where his reproductive chances were perceived to be higher
, is important to consider.

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:Oh don't worry, I'm wholly conscious that Shinji was completely manipulated and that most of his choices were already made for him since probably Yui's disappearance, if not even earlier(the subversions being when he resigned after Bardiel and when he decided to come back to save Rei, and even then that was all benefiting Gendo's plans), and that Gendo maximized his chance of Shinji making the wrong decision(pulling out the spears) by isolating him(with only having Kaworu's company) and crushing his sanity, and by playing with Shinji's personal flaws(tendency to narrow-mindedness and extreme stubbornness when pushed too much), but that doesn't change the fact that these are only attenuating circumstances, because at the moment he decided to ignore everyone and still go for the spears not only was he the only one piloting EVA-13, and so the complete master of the situation,

Only if we take things at face value. If we can admit there were tremendous influences acting on Shinji's choices, we can admit that Shinji was not a free boy.

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:but also unlike all the other times, he knows about Gendo's treacherous nature,

Shinji knows this but I'm not sure if he's accepted it. He still pleads for his father's attention at times and he isn't exactly hostile to sleeping in his father's base.
View Original PostElMariachi wrote: of how he's conspiring to destroy the world and manipulated him to further his plans,

Leading back to what I already said: if your uncle tells you that your mom is a prostitute in a serious way, you aren't exactly going to suddenly become hostile towards you. It takes some time to accept. And Shinji was forced in the robot shortly after learning this, with a number of other equally tormenting things on his mind.

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:and thus should know that when Kaworu, the person who has gone as far as to take off his bomb collar and put it on himself to prove him that he's not like Gendo and could be trusted, tells him that they should stop because he has a bad feeling and then outright begs him to stop, he should have listened to him.
Agreed. Shinji was not acting rationally though.

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:But he let his emotions and his old flaws control him and was acted as Gendo's perfect little puppet, and that's his responsibility.

Agreed, but there is a special word you used there: responsibility. Shinji isn't even a man. He barely had any parents in his childhood. That's why I feel that Shinji should be given more way when it comes to when he did something wrong, especially responsibilities, which come when people grow older... which Shinji really hasn't. But you are right, and I can't justify away his responsibilities.

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:But the attenuating circumstances I cited before is also what makes me think that Misato will show some understanding and leniency to Shinji in FINAL and acknowledge the shitty circumstances he was put into... while not absolving him of his responsibility.
And I think that even Asuka showed some understanding of Shinji's situation in the end of the movie, which is why she took upon herself to save him and drag him with her in her journey to find a place to be rescued.

Misato owes it to Shinji to tell him what's going on. She knows Shinji's nature, just as his father does. She also knows what his father wants: Shinji. Why on earth she wouldn't treat the child like a prince is outside of my understanding.

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Postby Kendrix » Sat Dec 28, 2013 5:41 pm

It's more simple than that : Shinji hit Asuka because she spent the last 5 minutes trying to impale him with a giant naginata, and he needed to put distance between them so he could go grab the spears. Before that he was trying repetitively to avoid having to fight and harm Asuka, not really an act of great feat fueled by sexuality.


Yeah. They're in mechas. Fighting to prevent the end of the world.
Gender doesn't enter into it.

Or, if you want, there's a point of stress where reproductive functions are shut off because you wouldn't be able to procreate and look after it to begin with - for a starving person, eating will feel better than an orgasm.
It's apparently scientifically demonstrated - don't ask me where they got the starving people for the study. Everyone involved should be in self-preservation mode.

---

Gendo, and knowing that he's treacherous, doesn't really have anything to do with it.

At no point after seeing what was done to the city does Shinji put a morsel of trust in Gendo.
Having a bit of emotional attachment left is being human.
They're explicitly out to doublecross him.

That doesn't mean they have all that knowledge Gendo has, or that all Gendo has in place is suddenly not there anymore. Are you saying Gendo only managed to trick them so far because they didn't know he wasn't to be trusted?
Well, SEELE has suspected him from day one, and he was still a serious threat to them!
And Shinji doesn't have a tenth of the ressources/time/knowledge SEELE has.
Also, Gendo & Fuyu know he's been to the surface. They even predicted his reaction.

It's more than when you're panicked, you get into a bit of an one-track mode and just don't consider alternatives, like, "Maybe this is a trick, maybe that is a trick, maybe we#re supposed to think it's a trick but it's not really..." or "So it might not work. What if it doesn't work, we'll still have weapons..."

"What else could happen" just doesn't enter into his mind. It should, in an ideal world, but he's not behind a desk. He's got pursuers recharging their EVAs.

Also, again, he was told that taking these spears would stop Gendo's plan. Kaworu was obviously just simplyfing here. but as it seems to be, leaving them in bad, and comming to get them another time seems unlikely.

"Apocalypse risk" is a box Shinji ticked when he climbed into EVA 13 to begin with, that's why he refused at first. He doesn't understand anything about the mechanics, or why it happens; he just knows that he+ EVA is dangerous.
Ironically, that's probably of why he was in favor of ending it fast...

And ReiQ is there as Gendo's watchdog, as far as Shinji knows.... Too much openly defiant moves, and they might have to fight her as well.

---

I don't think it's correct to say that Shinji had NO other chances/freedom over his choices at all.
We're not fucking monkeys.

There have always been humans who did unexpected, extraordinary things - whenever we hear that X causes Y in Z% of the cases, there's always the 100-Z percent still worthy of their human badge. If he couldn't do anything, he would be lost... and, you know, a lot of the tragedies does come from lost opportunities.

It's just that Shinji is in this stage where he CAN do something that has an effect, but can't yet do it perfectly.
Practice and rehearsal, as Kaworu says. Shinji just happens to have the fate of the planet involved in his "youth escapades", and that's bloody unfair, but that's how it's always been.

Could there have been a better way? Sure. Theoretically yes.

Does Shinji's failure to see this possibility fall under the margin of normal human error that doesn't require bad intentions, neglect or stupidity to happen to any of us?

That's what I'm arguing.
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Postby ElMariachi » Sat Dec 28, 2013 8:09 pm

View Original PostunitM wrote:To go a little further, Shinji's longing to return to the past, to somewhere where people liked him, where his reproductive chances were perceived to be higher
, is important to consider.

I think that Shinji's desire were more innocent than that : he don't want to be hated by the only people who showed some care for him, and wanted their forgiveness.


View Original PostunitM wrote:Only if we take things at face value. If we can admit there were tremendous influences acting on Shinji's choices, we can admit that Shinji was not a free boy.

Yes, but influences doesn't mean mind control : Shinji could still have chosen another path, but clang to his initial hope of a magic fix of everything and it backfired horribly on him and Kaworu.
It's like pulling the trigger of a weapon : even if you were heavily influenced into pressing it by someone else's manipulation, you are still the one who pulled the trigger, who made the decision to pull it, no one was physically forcing your hand to pull it, and here no Dummy System forced his Eva to pull out the spears while Kaworu was warning him to abandon now because those wasn't the spears they came for and that he had a bad feeling about all of this and then literally begged him to stop.


View Original PostunitM wrote:Shinji knows this but I'm not sure if he's accepted it. He still pleads for his father's attention at times and he isn't exactly hostile to sleeping in his father's base.

Leading back to what I already said: if your uncle tells you that your mom is a prostitute in a serious way, you aren't exactly going to suddenly become hostile towards you. It takes some time to accept. And Shinji was forced in the robot shortly after learning this, with a number of other equally tormenting things on his mind.

Shinji already disowned his father and stopped yearning for his attention after the Bardiel incident, and only wanted to ask him questions in Q because he landed in an utterly insane situation and Gendo was the only person of authority he knows that could give him information.
But when Kaworu told Shinji about HIP and Gendo's involvement on it Shinji never even talked about him anymore. For Shinji at this point it was clear that Gendo was an enemy and that he shouldn't expect anything positive coming from him.

And he slept inside his father's base not by choice, but because he didn't had any other choice : he was in a fortress floating kilometers above ground in the middle of a giant toxic wasteland, and as far as he knows, the other people outside are an organization which wants to lock him up at best, and outright execute him at worst!


View Original PostunitM wrote:Agreed, but there is a special word you used there: responsibility. Shinji isn't even a man. He barely had any parents in his childhood. That's why I feel that Shinji should be given more way when it comes to when he did something wrong, especially responsibilities, which come when people grow older... which Shinji really hasn't. But you are right, and I can't justify away his responsibilities.

Misato owes it to Shinji to tell him what's going on. She knows Shinji's nature, just as his father does. She also knows what his father wants: Shinji. Why on earth she wouldn't treat the child like a prince is outside of my understanding.

But remember that we're in a different world now, that operates under different rules than before the time skip, as Asuka puts it at the beginning of the movie : "All this fuss over just one person. In this world, we don't have the luxury of worrying about such things.", this world is much harsher than the previous one, and people are probably expected to take responsibility for their actions.
Besides, whether he likes it or not, Shinji stopped being a normal boy when he agreed to become an Evangelion pilot. From there on it's expected of him to think before acting and act more rationally because he's at the commands of the most powerful war machine ever created by mankind, or at least to try to act more rationally instead of letting his emotions override him.

So even if the fact he's a minor and was completely manipulated and broken will certainly be taken into account by Misato in FINAL(or else she truly wouldn't be better than Gendo), that won't in any way exempt Shinji from responsibility, beside part of the consequences already fell on him, as his reckless actions directly led to Kaworu's death, and that's blood directly in Shinji's hands that he'll have to live with for the rest of his life.

As for why Misato doesn't treat Shinji like a prince is because he's now a potential threat to entire mankind if he gets in an Eva, and was convicted for serious crimes(mass extinction of the biosphere according to Kaworu) and is now essentially a war criminal. Misato simply can't treat him as a prince or even a surrogate son anymore, and personally I even wonder if she wants to do it.


---


View Original PostKendrix wrote:Gendo, and knowing that he's treacherous, doesn't really have anything to do with it.

That doesn't mean they have all that knowledge Gendo has, or that all Gendo has in place is suddenly not there anymore. Are you saying Gendo only managed to trick them so far because they didn't know he wasn't to be trusted?
Well, SEELE has suspected him from day one, and he was still a serious threat to them!
And Shinji doesn't have a tenth of the ressources/time/knowledge SEELE has.
Also, Gendo & Fuyu know he's been to the surface. They even predicted his reaction.

By knowing that he's treacherous, Shinji knows that he has already be manipulated into unwittingly doing horrible things before(N3I), and since he still knows very little about what's happening, that he should listen to the people who actually know WTF is happening and showed him that they care for him, people like Kaworu.


View Original PostKendrix wrote:It's more than when you're panicked, you get into a bit of an one-track mode and just don't consider alternatives, like, "Maybe this is a trick, maybe that is a trick, maybe we#re supposed to think it's a trick but it's not really..." or "So it might not work. What if it doesn't work, we'll still have weapons..."

That was narrow-mindedness from his part, which was exactly what Gendo counted on and Shinji delivered. And that was also probably what Asuka was referring to when she said that he only thought about himself, ie that he refused to consider other people's warnings and stay locked into his belief that if he takes the spears everything will be okay, and if it don't work at least he'll get new weapons, without even considering that there must be a reason why even Kaworu begged him to stop.


View Original PostKendrix wrote:"What else could happen" just doesn't enter into his mind. It should, in an ideal world, but he's not behind a desk. He's got pursuers recharging their EVAs.

Yes, and that's something he'll need to correct in FINAL, or he'll forever stay a brat that Gendo can manipulate at his leisure and that WILLE must keep on a tight leash to prevent him for unwittingly harming others and himself.


View Original PostKendrix wrote:Also, again, he was told that taking these spears would stop Gendo's plan. Kaworu was obviously just simplyfing here. but as it seems to be, leaving them in bad, and comming to get them another time seems unlikely.

Kaworu oversimplified, and it was an error from his part(or maybe deliberate...), but Shinji could at least had asked him why they couldn't at least take the spears and use them as weapons.


View Original PostKendrix wrote:"Apocalypse risk" is a box Shinji ticked when he climbed into EVA 13 to begin with, that's why he refused at first. He doesn't understand anything about the mechanics, or why it happens; he just knows that he+ EVA is dangerous.
Ironically, that's probably of why he was in favor of ending it fast...

And since he knows that he doesn't understand anything about the mechanics of Impacts, or why it happens, and that he and an Eva is dangerous, he should have listened to people who do understand about these mechanics, which Kaworu obviously did.


View Original PostKendrix wrote:And ReiQ is there as Gendo's watchdog, as far as Shinji knows.... Too much openly defiant moves, and they might have to fight her as well.

Rei Q was being kept pinned down by Mari's suppressing fire, which also made her unable to shoot Eva-13 or Mark.09 would had charged the still recharging EVA-02 and reduced it to pieces. Shinji did had a window to get back to the trolley and activate it to go back into neo-NERV HQ, beat information out of Gendo's and devise another plan in the safety of the fortress.


View Original PostKendrix wrote:It's just that Shinji is in this stage where he CAN do something that has an effect, but can't yet do it perfectly.
Practice and rehearsal, as Kaworu says. Shinji just happens to have the fate of the planet involved in his "youth escapades", and that's bloody unfair, but that's how it's always been.

Could there have been a better way? Sure. Theoretically yes.

Does Shinji's failure to see this possibility fall under the margin of normal human error that doesn't require bad intentions, neglect or stupidity to happen to any of us?

That's what I'm arguing.

The fact his "youth escapades" have the fate of the planet involved should have incited him to be more prudent in his actions and at least to try to act more calmly and listen to other people's advices instead of going all stubborn and thinking that his way is the best.
That's called being mature, and learning to do it is an integral part of Shinji's journey toward adulthood that he'll have to undertake in FINAL if he doesn't want to get stuck forever at the state of apocalypse-bringing pawn.


Now don't get me wrong : I acknowledge that Shinji was in the absolute shittiest situation possible and that everything was conspiring so he would make the wrong decision(Gendo even broke him mentally to maximize his chances), and therefor his actions in Lilith's Chamber are understandable... but not excusable : he fucked-up, and now he needs to acknowledge it(although I think he already did) and learn from his errors to not repeat them again and work to make up for it : WILLE did ended with one Eva damaged, the other nearly completely destroyed and the Wunder heavily damaged in their cleaning up behind the mess caused by his stunt with the spears.
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Postby Kendrix » Sun Dec 29, 2013 4:32 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:Rei Q was being kept pinned down by Mari's suppressing fire, which also made her unable to shoot Eva-13 or Mark.09 would had charged the still recharging EVA-02 and reduced it to pieces. Shinji did had a window to get back to the trolley and activate it to go back into neo-NERV HQ, beat information out of Gendo's and devise another plan in the safety of the fortress.


Sorry, but no. He didn't have much in terms of visible alternatives, least as all such romantic power fantasy-ish ones like "go smash Gendo's toys."
He tried somerthing like that once before; Gendo just increased the LCL pressure and the whole thing remained a non-event.

Also, that's still his father, even if he's not to be trusted. Could Shinji really threaten to off him just like that? Perhaps, but I don't think he wants to find out.

Mari and Asuka were coming after him, ReiQ was, if not a potential enemy, then certainly no ally, and there's no way out other than an an abyss of dozens of kilometers that he didn't even climb down on his own. Mari had long-distance weapons, and Shinji had no clue they wouldn't work on unit 13.

The only alternatives are killing or incapacitating everyone present or surrendering. Mari and Asuka probably would have taken them alive, (Asuka does just that at the end of the movie), but does Shinji know that? As far as he knows, he narrowly escaped being blown up when he left the Wunder, and he did the exact thing they threatened to kill him for: Get into an EVA. Also, he may be willing to risk getting himself blown up, but what about Kaworu?

At the point he climbed into the EVa, or at very least when he openly threw Asuka away, he took a gamble with no refunds...

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:The fact his "youth escapades" have the fate of the planet involved should have incited him to be more prudent in his actions and at least to try to act more calmly


In theory, yes. But in reality, the sheer stakes would only create more pressure and panic, and being more aware of them would make it worse, not better.

If Anno's feeling merciful, Shinji may certainly have something to learn from the whole debacle, but you can't expect him to have known that before such an experience.
He's very, very new to being (or trying to be) an active player on the chess board of indstrumentality plans, or heck, taking active roles (and dealing with the fallout of things gong wrong) in general.
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Postby KingXanaduu » Sun Dec 29, 2013 5:54 pm

View Original PostKendrix wrote:
In theory, yes. But in reality, the sheer stakes would only create more pressure and panic, and being more aware of them would make it worse, not better.

If Anno's feeling merciful, Shinji may certainly have something to learn from the whole debacle, but you can't expect him to have known that before such an experience.
He's very, very new to being (or trying to be) an active player on the chess board of indstrumentality plans, or heck, taking active roles (and dealing with the fallout of things gong wrong) in general.


Unfortunately, it's the end of the world for Shinji, and EVERY decision he's going to make that involves the FATE of the world, then he needs to understand EVERY risk and pressure involved, and whether he's capable of making the right choice that benefits EVERYONE, and not just himself. This "self-rightous" need to exalt himself of his own sins is what he caused, that HE should be the one to fix it, is what got him into this mess in the first place.

And as much as I would like to see Shinji of all people to get out of this debacle and have his relationships mended, there is a saying that describes Shinji's situation perfectly:

"Help out, or get out."

It's like having a Nursing Assistant trying to do a Doctor's work. A CNA is not equipped with the training nor the experience to diagnose and treat a patient, so if they try their hand in it, they only will make the situation worse then it already was before, and everyone will have to pay the price.

And that's exactly what's happening with Shinji. He is not equipped mentally or experienced enough now to help out in any way without making things worse. He's missed out 14 years of warfare, and the world has changed to meet that standard now. People have hardened, grown more efficient at their job, and have accepted the harsh reality of the world now, where people DIE everyday, and you have to move on and keep fighting.

Shinji is a blast from the past who's mentality is not equipped anymore to handle this world, and Wille (especially Misato) knows this, and thus is a burden to their efforts unless he's contained. That's what Misato was saying when she said, "You won't do anything anymore." His welfare is the last thing on their minds, because they have more pressing issues, Like the fate of the world, at stake. One boy's issues don't rank very high on the priority list of Wille, no matter how heart-breaking it is for us Shinji fans. :sniffle:

Hence, "Help out or get out". Because Shinji is out of date and inexperienced, the BEST "Help" he can do now for Wille is to accept that he's not equipped to make the TOUGH decisions of the world and stay out of everyone's way while they clean up the mess that HE caused because of his selfish desires. If they WANT his help, they will ask and prepare him for it, but until then, if he has to stay the rest of the next movie isolated in a cell while everyone else cleans up his failures.....well....that's tough beans for Shinji.

Harsh, yes, but it's the truth. And I personally don't agree with it, but I have to acknowledge such concepts, cause in the real world, you have to make harsh and memorable choices and decisions. :sniffle:
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Postby Stillborn » Sun Dec 29, 2013 6:21 pm

Therefore like every obsolete concept or organism Shinji should disappear as in natural evolution process. Either he should be killed or rot in cell or go for self exile to die somewhere remote at the end of the movie.
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Postby Kendrix » Sun Dec 29, 2013 6:31 pm

That's grossly unfair/missed the fundamental problem of the series' entire situation.

He was willing to "get out" back in 1.11. He repeated multiple times that he wasn't cut out for it and that he didn't have the confidence that he could do this right/safely carry the weight of the word.


He's not some wannabe with a hero complex who forced himself into the limelight for his vanglorious ambitions with no regard for wether he'll just be standing in the way.
Nothing could be further from the truth - this kid's got no delusions about his capabilities.
He didn't take either of these purple monsters out of more capable hands.
His first reaction was to want to stay far away from them, especially unit thirteen, in case you missed the part where it took a lot of persuation from Kaworu to even get him out of the room.
There couldn't be a grosser distortion.

To say that he was shanghaied into it is... correct to a degree, but depends on what perspective you're seeing it from.
At very least, he's someone who couldn't stand the consequences of what happens if he doesn't intervene.

The EVA 13 deal was no exception. There's a way to fix this chaos, but "it becomes possible with you."
Something that Mari and Asuka don't know about and (as far as Shinji can tell, won't hear him out about), in other words, a chance that it lost if he doesn't use it.
A chance that (if it had ever actually existed) may have been all remaining hope for all of humanity - that is, something not to be given up lightly.

The problem with Shinji isn't that he doesn't know he's ill-equipped to do shit.
It's that he doesn't have the option of bowing out in any way that would not make everything worse (see Bardiel), or, at very least didn't have it anywhere in the first two movies.

If anything, he still lacks the understanding that not everything works in all situations and there's no fixed pattern that can help him out of any given tough spot, but that basically boils down to being a teenager/is hard to learn without actual trial and error.

He knows he's imperfect and decided to still try to do his best, regardless of what unpredictable nasty surprises said imperfection may bring with itself, even after it already bit him in the butt once.

That's not without admirable qualities.

See "EVA is a story of moving forward, if only a little bit."/"Eva is a story where the protagonist witnesses the horrors with his own eyes but still has the will to go on."


But if you hire a monkey to do your jobs, you lost the right to complain about everything being filled with Bananas - Misato and Kaji aknowledge that right in the bar scene, but it's only human/not surprising that years of combat and loss and compromising your morals would press all the reasonable-ness out of her - Again, it's easy to be a saint in paradise.

He's doing the best he can, fully aware that it's far from the ideal, because he's made the erxperience, finally gotten the message that not doing anything doesn't made anything better, that, if he intervenes, he can at least say that he tried his best, as far as regrets go.

Don't say there isn't a little bit of admirtable quality in that, no matter how tragic/misdirected.

Compare/contrast relevant speeches by ep 19!Kaji and EoE!Misato.
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Postby pwhodges » Sun Dec 29, 2013 6:31 pm

View Original PostStillborn wrote:Therefore like every obsolete concept or organism Shinji should disappear as in natural evolution process.

When xanderkh said "out of date", he only referred to his skipping fourteen years of info. If children were otherwise considered obsolete on account of ignorance and made to disappear, humanity would die out in short order without any fancy stuff.
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Postby KingXanaduu » Sun Dec 29, 2013 6:56 pm

View Original PostStillborn wrote:Therefore like every obsolete concept or organism Shinji should disappear as in natural evolution process. Either he should be killed or rot in cell or go for self exile to die somewhere remote at the end of the movie.


Would you stop twisting my words Stillborn? :irked: I did not mean that he is COMPLETELY useless that he should die off. Shinji can help out if he has the WILL to offer it, and the mentality to consider everyone else instead of his selfish needs. If he genuinely wants to help out without compromising everyone else while doing so, Wille should be happy to oblige, if they require him. That does not mean that he has any other use at all and that he should die in his cell. No. Wille will give him something to do, but it will be small and away from Eva. So stop making everything into a fatalist point of view. :irked:

@Kendrix: And I would be completely inclined to agree with you Kendrix. Shinji is very capable of acts of selflessness, compassion, and love, and those indeed are very admirable traits, one that I've grown to see as potential for Shinji. ^_^

The problem with Shinji is that those traits can easily become overridden with Shinji's streak of obstinance and selfishness, especially when everyone around him is telling him to stop and yet he STILL doesn't listen. And yes, he's trying his best, we all can attest for that. But when your "best" is going to screw everyone else over, it's time to reevaluate what your "best" is to everyone else.
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Sephiroth: "Do you miss the Light?"
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Sephiroth: "Too close to the brightness, and you may get scorched."
Golbz:.............
Golbez: Your loss can strengthen you.

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Postby ElMariachi » Sun Dec 29, 2013 9:43 pm

View Original PostKendrix wrote:Sorry, but no. He didn't have much in terms of visible alternatives, least as all such romantic power fantasy-ish ones like "go smash Gendo's toys."
He tried somerthing like that once before; Gendo just increased the LCL pressure and the whole thing remained a non-event.

Also, that's still his father, even if he's not to be trusted. Could Shinji really threaten to off him just like that? Perhaps, but I don't think he wants to find out.

Snip

Kaworu told him that they should "go back", that means that he knows a way to go back, he's still implied to be the best pilot in existence, and with him and Shinji synchronizing, I really doubt that Mari, Asuka or Rei Q could ahve done anything to stop them, especially since EVA-13 was made to be unstoppable.

And Shinji can very go and harm his father, even off him, he already tried to do it 14 years ago after Bardiel, remember?

Shinji's extreme difficulty into trusting someone was his downfall.(although I admit that he had reason to be less trustful in Q)


View Original PostKendrix wrote:At the point he climbed into the EVa, or at very least when he openly threw Asuka away, he took a gamble with no refunds...

And again, when Kaworu told him that they'd better stop because he had a very bad feeling, he should had at least stopped one minute to ear his reasons, Kaworu has gone as far as putting a death collar to prove to Shinji that he can trust him.


View Original PostKendrix wrote:In theory, yes. But in reality, the sheer stakes would only create more pressure and panic, and being more aware of them would make it worse, not better.

If Anno's feeling merciful, Shinji may certainly have something to learn from the whole debacle, but you can't expect him to have known that before such an experience.
He's very, very new to being (or trying to be) an active player on the chess board of indstrumentality plans, or heck, taking active roles (and dealing with the fallout of things gong wrong) in general.

Yes, Shinji has still a lot of things to learn... and that's fine! That was the whole reason of the spears fiasco's existence! The hero tries new things, fails, learn from his failure and get back on the saddle this time more knowledgeable! That's how many narrative and even real life works!
The main difference here is that the stake are extremely high from the get go, which means that on top of learning his lesson(to keep his mind still and listen to people around him) he must learn to be more prudent and see the bigger picture.

---

View Original Postxanderkh wrote:Shinji can help out if he has the WILL to offer it, and the mentality to consider everyone else instead of his selfish needs. If he genuinely wants to help out without compromising everyone else while doing so, Wille should be happy to oblige, if they require him. That does not mean that he has any other use at all and that he should die in his cell. No. Wille will give him something to do, but it will be small and away from Eva.

The problem I have with that is that that would really comes off as getting out easily for Shinji : he creates an unspeakable mess that WILLE has to clean after through sweat and blood and Shinji gets to simply do community service/clean the Wunder's toilets/organize files in Misato's desk?
Also why say in a ominous tone that from now on he'll do nothing, suggesting that Shinji is in for a lifetime in prison, if what Misato meant was that he's out of any fighting role? A "from now on, you're help is unrequited/you won't fight ever again" would have been far less ambiguous. And Sakura made it clear that the DSS Choker was here to stay, so WILLE did planned to keep a close eye on him, so no release in a Lilin settlement where he'll find a new life.
But still, I just can't see FINAL as Shinji staying back and accept that he's not cut from the job and happily taking a new small job while the guys at WILLE risks their neck against Gendo's army of killer robots. After his massive screw-ups, he'll have to take part on the fight at some point, or the movie will fail at redeeming Shinji in the audience's eyes and probably also in-universe.

Unless what Misato implied with her line was just referring to combat role and FINAL is divided in two parts in which Shinji did undertook this small job away from Eva and after a time skip is offered a second chance to fight by WILLE's side.(meaning that she changed her mind or that outside circumstances forced her hand)


View Original Postxanderkh wrote:@Kendrix: And I would be completely inclined to agree with you Kendrix. Shinji is very capable of acts of selflessness, compassion, and love, and those indeed are very admirable traits, one that I've grown to see as potential for Shinji. ^_^

The problem with Shinji is that those traits can easily become overridden with Shinji's streak of obstinance and selfishness, especially when everyone around him is telling him to stop and yet he STILL doesn't listen. And yes, he's trying his best, we all can attest for that. But when your "best" is going to screw everyone else over, it's time to reevaluate what your "best" is to everyone else.

I don't think that Shinji has "selfish needs" as you put them, or rather not as important as you made them : I just can't see a guy willing to pilot a giant cyborg he never saw before to fight giant abominations just so an injured girl won't have to do it, or to be impaled and flayed alive in a fight to the death he most powerful Angel to save Rei, or asking to do the thing he hate the more in the world(piloting the Eva) so he could go and help Asuka even though he's utterly confused by the situation around him as "selfish".

Of course, he does have self-serving reasons for his actions(getting his father's approval and later protect the people he cares for in 1.0 and 2.0, as well as the very beginning of 3.0, being forgiven by everyone in the rest of 3.0), but who haven't in this movie? No for me his problem isn't "selfish needs", but that even in his selflessness he's too stubborn to accepts that the path he chose to take is the wrong one and listen to what other people have to say : that was already the case when he refused to fight against Bardiel(didn't wanted to harm Asuka : selfless reason) but didn't wanted to accept the HQ reasoning that fighting was the only option to win("stubbornness")

To come back to the saying "Help out, or get out." you used in an earlier post, I think that what would better describe Shinji is a variation of it : "Know When to Fold 'Em."
You can try to help, it's a good thing when you seem to be able to do it(after all when he piloted EVA-13 he didn't really had a choice since Gendo and Fuyu would had found a way to force him to pilot had he refused Kaworu's proposition, and both seemed to really be able to turn the table with the two spears) but when it becomes clear that the situation changed in such a way that you can't help anymore because you don't have enough information(the spears aren't the ones they came for), it's time to Fold and trust people around you who do have information to guide you to make the right choice, here these persons were Kaworu and on a lesser extend Asuka.
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Postby atarashiieva » Mon Dec 30, 2013 4:12 pm

I think another problem here is that Shinji just didn't want to be in that world anymore.

His desperation to reach the spears and somehow restore the world to its current state can be viewed as another form of running away. He is scared of everything there, as is problably the worst nightmare he could dream, but actually real:

- The city is destroyed and an insane red landscape replaced it
- His friends (Touji, Kensuke, Hikari) were missing
- He didn't actually save Rei, and a clone is constantly remembering him of that fact
- His mother was the control system of EVA-01, and Rei was actually a result of Yui's remnants
- The other people who remain now hate him and treat him as useless (Misato, Asuka, other Wille members)

With the spears, he strongly believed (really wanted to) that all the previous facts would dissapear, so he would be back into the world and people he knew, thus his confort zone. That's the reason for his behaviour in Lilith's Chamber:

01:08:36 We should hurry and pull the Spears out.
01:08:38 It's the only reason I'm piloting this Eva.


01:12:47 You're the one who said we need the Spears.
01:12:50 That's why I got into this Eva!


01:13:02 For Kaworu-kun,
01:13:05 for everyone, I will get the Spears!
01:13:07 Only then will the world go back to how it should be.
01:13:11 That way, even Misato-san would...


You can see here he doesn't want to pilot EVA-13, but it's the tool he has to use to try this "fix", even if has few chances of working. He's so desperate and selfish in this scene that obviously didn't thought of the possible bad consequences of his decision.

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Postby Giji Shinka » Mon Dec 30, 2013 4:37 pm

^Plus, he's 14 years old, and many young people like Shinji tend to be less thoughtful about many things (and less smarter)..... :tongue:

If we combine all things you said and the fact he's a teenager=Max chaos
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Postby ElMariachi » Mon Dec 30, 2013 5:33 pm

^
Plus add to that all the external factors we talked about : lack of information, sleep deprivation, his mind having been broken twice in the past two days(implied to be his father's doing), Asuka being unwilling to talk, Kaworu lost in his thoughts and not helping Shinji to get out of the critical situation he was in, and the situation was pretty much bound to end in a disaster!(although there could have been a chance that Shinji got against the odd and made the right decision)
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Postby KingXanaduu » Tue Dec 31, 2013 1:29 am

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:^
Plus add to that all the external factors we talked about : lack of information, sleep deprivation, his mind having been broken twice in the past two days(implied to be his father's doing), Asuka being unwilling to talk, Kaworu losing himself in his though and not helping Shinji to get out of the critical situation he was in, and the situation was pretty much bound to end in a disaster!(although there could have been a chance that Shinji got against the odd and made the right decision)


We all could debate endlessly over and over whether or not Shinji could have made a better choice, but as you made perfectly clear ElMariachi, there were a lot of factors that were against Shinji at the time, and I doubt Gendo would've simple let Shinji go if he surrendered.

In the aftermath of this kind of situation, you think you can to better in this situation when you look back on it afterwards, but this kind of thing happens so fast and paced (especially with everyone screaming at you), you just act on instinct and hope that you're doing the right thing. When you look back over it, and keep mulling over and over that you could've done better, all you're doing is just beating yourself up. What's done, is done. The best thing you can do is learn from the past, and hope to move forward the best you can....
"You're na�ve, Cecil. Even knowing betrayal and despair, you would depend on the whims of others?" - Golbez
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Sephiroth: "Do you miss the Light?"
Golbez: "Hmph...I merely have duties to fulfill."
Sephiroth: "Too close to the brightness, and you may get scorched."
Golbz:.............
Golbez: Your loss can strengthen you.

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Postby Giji Shinka » Tue Dec 31, 2013 8:25 am

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:^
Plus add to that all the external factors we talked about : lack of information, sleep deprivation, his mind having been broken twice in the past two days(implied to be his father's doing), Asuka being unwilling to talk, Kaworu lost in his thoughts and not helping Shinji to get out of the critical situation he was in, and the situation was pretty much bound to end in a disaster!(although there could have been a chance that Shinji got against the odd and made the right decision)

Yeah.
Also, off topic: The moment Shinji pulled the spears he probably had the biggest orgasm-like feeling, ever.

Man, after seeing the stuff Shinji has gone through makes me really appreciate the great life I have now....
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