Does Asuka hate Shinji in Q? [Split]

[wiser3754]

Anyone care to speculate why Asuka says "Stupid Shinji" when she realises that he's piloting EVA-13 before he explains why and going to the "Brat" pseudonym afterwards?

[ElMariachi]

^
Late reply is late, but anyway : Asuka probably says "baka Shinji" when she discovers that he's piloting EVA-13 because she got accustomed to refers to him with that nickname for the past 14 years, and she was so surprised to see him in Lilith's Chamber that without thinking she used his old nickname instead of the new "gaki Shinji" one.

[chee]

If she hated him to the extent that some people seem to think she does, she wouldn't have, you know, saved him.

Does she dislike him for his choices? Sure. Look down on him? Yes. Resent him? Yes. Hate him? No. "Hate" implies more than just dislike, it means total loathing. She at the very least pities him, and her outburst at the end of the film's opening battle seems to show that she still holds him in at least some positive regard.

[Kendrix]

Anyone care to speculate why Asuka says "Stupid Shinji" when she realises that he's piloting EVA-13 before he explains why and going to the "Brat" pseudonym afterwards?

She actually says, "stupid brat", doesn't she?

Or maybe she's just surprised/schocked and still has the old nickname somewhat entrenched in her brain.

[ElMariachi]

^
Nope, she said "Baka Shinji?!" loud and clear :

01:09:05 {アスカ}　　　　バカシンジ？

01:09:05 {Asuka} Stupid Shinji?!

It's clearly a case of the old nickname still in her brain, or maybe she didn't had the "gaki" nickname figured out and decided to call it that from the moment he answered that he's indeed piloting and will change the world doing it!(which from a certain point of you is him telling her that he do whatever he wants, and Fuck you. At least that's probably how Asuka interpreted it)

[Kendrix]

That's the grossest misrepresentation ever.

"I'm gonna show you and everyone else that I'm not the monster you think I am!" (pessimist estimate) =/= "Bitch, make me a sammich!"

[ElMariachi]

^
I shouldn't have used such a strong phrase(that was mainly for humoristic sake), what I mean is that for Asuka, Shinji's line could be interpreted as Shinji telling them that they don't have the right to tell him what he should or should not do, and that if he want to pilot and use his Evangelion's powers, then he will, risks and consequences be damned.

Which of course is false, WILLE had excellent reasons to tell him what to do and not, first because they know WTF is going on with their 14 years of more experience, and second because whether he like it or not, Shinji is an Impact Trigger, and him piloting an Eva is tantamount of playing Russian Roulette with a nuke in the Chamber.

And of course that's not what Shinji meant, he didn't really wanted to defy WILLE's order(and Sakura's pleas) just for the sake of defying them(he wouldn't had tried to convince Asuka to let him go for the spears if that was the case), he genuinely wanted to help them, defeat Gendo, repair the world and yes, on a personal level, to make amends for what he did so people would forgive him and he wouldn't be hated by everyone.

Problem is that you can't defeat people like Gendo and SEELE by going solo, even Space Jesus Kaworu had to learn that the hard way, and Shinji's natural extreme stubbornness that makes him not changing his mind when his mind is set to a course(exacerbated by Gendo ruthlessly destroying his mind) made him only make the situation worse. If Shinji wants to win, he'll have to learn to work alongside other people(meaning WILLE), and more importantly to listen to what they have to say, even if that means having to face their wrath and looks of contempt and disappointment instead of trying to fix everything by himself so that once he comes back everyone will stop hating him, that's not how it works in real life, and that definitively not how it works against manipulative bastards like Gendo.

[Resulting tangent about Gendo went here. All further replies about Gendo go there. - Monk]

[Karex_Usyrion]

Shikinami does not hate the puppy freak, it's just that throughout RE (Rebuild) those women did not long for the touch of others' lips, and thus did not invite their kisses. What this means is that in the tale of the RE universe there's no similar Episode 15, things happened quite differently and that's the story. What would have been plausible in Q upon finding the human wreck would have been Shikinami producing a .45 and delivering a fatal head shot : is it hate or duty? Global liability public enemy #1 recognized for near third impact, escaped via direct attack on the flagship of the fleet, very recently piloting EVA 13 of fourth impact...seems like a trend...hard to ignore he well might be involved in the next impact. It's been 14 years of war against SEELE and NERV, sounds like a WILLE officer in the field of battle would be authorized to finally cap the nonsense.

[ElMariachi]

Shikinami does not hate the puppy freak, it's just that throughout RE (Rebuild) those women did not long for the touch of others' lips, and thus did not invite their kisses. What this means is that in the tale of the RE universe there's no similar Episode 15, things happened quite differently and that's the story.

I quite fail to see how that's related to if Asuka hates Shinji in Q or not.

As for the second point, well sure, WILLE could had killed Shinji the minute he was recovered from EVA-01, or Asuka could have killed him when she found him in EVA-13's entry plug(even without a gun, just a choke-hold or abandoning him would had done the dead seeing his mental state), but the reason she didn't do it was because she knows that he never was on Gendo's or SEELE's side, and wanted to save the world, but was manipulated by the enemy into triggering HIP. Shinji himself said it repetitively to Asuka during their fight in Lilith's Chamber.

She doesn't see him as an enemy, but as a brat constantly being manipulated like a puppet by Gendo who knows exactly how to play his flaws(namely his tendencies to egotism and his extreme stubbornness when things get sour) to make him do exactly what his father wants. Which makes WILLE's task even more complicated.

That what I said in my first post on this thread that she doesn't hate him(she wouldn't had called for him during operation US, nor saved him from certain death by starvation/dehydration at the end of the movie), but she's extremely frustrated by what she sees as a selfish and immature brat unable to work on his flaws and makes everyone's life more difficult as a result.
Or course, Shinji was only around for at the very most a week since after N3I while she had 14 years, and Gendo made sure to obliterate his mental health during his stay at neo-NERV so he would be desperate for a solution to atone for what he did, falling right into the trapped Kaworu noticed, but Asuka isn't perfect, nor omniscient.

[kboyrulez12345]

but the reason she didn't do it was because she knows that he never was on Gendo's or SEELE's side, and wanted to save the world, but was manipulated by the enemy into triggering HIP. Shinji himself said it repetitively to Asuka during their fight in Lilith's Chamber.

I don't understand that though. If Asuka, and Willie for that matter, know that Shinji, why didn't they just tell him why they are holding him up like that?

Actually, now that I think about it more, when Rei came and abducted Shinji, I remember that Ritsuko said something along the lines of, "He still has potential to be an Impact Trigger." I took that as Willie not knowing exactly how Gendo was able to use Shinji as an Impact Trigger.

[ElMariachi]

I don't understand that though. If Asuka, and Willie for that matter, know that Shinji, why didn't they just tell him why they are holding him up like that?

They were, Mark.09 interrupted them in the middle of their explanation before Misato and Ritsuko had the time to go to the most important parts(Gendo is an enemy of mankind working for an organization called SEELE, Rei is a clone...)

Actually, now that I think about it more, when Rei came and abducted Shinji, I remember that Ritsuko said something along the lines of, "He still has potential to be an Impact Trigger." I took that as Willie not knowing exactly how Gendo was able to use Shinji as an Impact Trigger.

For what we can understand, an Impact Trigger is a pilot who has the capacity to make his or her Evangelion reach the pseudo-evolution and later awakening, triggering an Impact in the process.
WILLE had doubts that Shinji still possessed that power(probably due to the 0.000% synch-rate with EVA-01, could be that they even thought that he lost the ability to pilot at all), but the fact that neo-NERV prioritized Shinji's recovery over EVA-01 means that he still has his Impact Trigger capacities(and thus also the capacity to pilot an Eva), since that's the only use they could have for Shinji.

Since, once Mark.09 delivers Shinji to neo-NERV, WILLE will be unable to prevent them to manipulate Shinji into piloting(if not outright force him via brainwashing), that's why Ritsuko urged Misato to detonate the DSS Choker, better safe than sorry(and most of WILLE probably ended very sorry at the end of Q)

[kboyrulez12345]

Oh, I see now. Sorry, I misinterpreted your post there.

[ElMariachi]

^
Yeah, when I said that Asuka know that Shinji wasn't working for Gendo, I was talking about their fight in Lilith's Chamber : Asuka asks Shinji if he's "trying to start Third Impact all over again"(the underlying question being : "Do you work for SEELE, Gendo and their Instrumentality project?"), and Shinji answers that he's not trying to launch another Impact, but to use the two spears to repair the world(i.e. "No, I'm not working for my father, I'm even trying to screw up his plans!"), except that by trying to screw up their plan, Shinji was actually playing right into it...

But at least Asuka knows that Shinji isn't on Gendo's and SEELE's side, which maybe saved his life when Asuka found him later in his entry plug.

[Karex_Usyrion]

I quite fail to see how that's related to if Asuka hates Shinji in Q or not.

Without a similar TV Episode 15 in RE there are no anchor events of affection towards Shinji.
In RE there are instead several events of growing distance until there is no degree of love whatsover, which has everything to do with hate.

Shikinami does not hold enough pieces of the puzzle nor has she been shown to be in pursuit of them so she would not understand how much Shinji is a victim of Gendo's agenda or even a relevant part of what Gendo's agenda is.

Shikinami shows selfish and immature reactions herself for it to be said that she is likely in any mindset from which it has been her well though out reaction to express frustration with a brat. There is a Shikinami frustration but it is, rather, with herself going through what is not the best
of outcomes (my left eye? none of your business...I'm the same? yes, curse of EVA).

Far from any intention of saving Shinji from certain death by starvation/dehydration, Shikinami thought twice to better take him into custody and remove him lest she be responsible if NERV decided to rescue him again. Officers are not formally allowed to choke hold anyone to death; they are allowed to use their weapon of charge.

Which part of 14 years of war don't you get ? That kind of timeframe, how would anyone doubt Shikinami allowing herself not to see Shinji for all effects and purposes as part of the enemy, an important asset to the enemy? Shikinami came through twice at all costs: ignition for the AAA Wunder during a deadly attack and destroying an Adam's vessel during 4th impact, situations with more at stake than euthenizing Shinji would be. It's not due to sentiment, the past, nor due to Shikinami having a basis to consider Shinji is not fighting for HIP to go through that Shikinami spared his life, it has to be for some greater benefit/need to WILLE (possibly him being the only one who can pilot EVA01) that he's now recaptured.

But at least Asuka knows that Shinji isn't on Gendo's and SEELE's side, which maybe saved his life when Asuka found him later in his entry plug.

This is selective memory, it's not the reason Shikinami has spared Shinji's life: later in the same fight Shikinami authorized the use of ATF penetrating ammo against EVA13 with deadly consequence to Shinji had it been a normal EVA.

They were, Mark.09 interrupted them in the middle of their explanation before Misato and Ritsuko had the time to go to the most important parts(Gendo is an enemy of mankind working for an organization called SEELE, Rei is a clone...)

No, they were not. Misato and Ritsuko casually exposing classified intelligence at a crucial point after 14 years of war?? What for? That sounds as if they were the ones being interrogated over at NERV. There were several minutes in which anyone in the interrogation scene could have uttered multiple two word reveals.

They were not going to explain nor reveal anything. Not the intention nor the purpose. Didn't you notice they were all contrived? Misato uptight, silent, crossed arms leaning against the wall - Ritsuko only explaining with need to know and scrambling desperately for round-about-means like asking Touji's little sister to introduce herself?

This thought may equal the delusion of class 2-A being a normal class in a normal school with normal students, normal children.

[Stillborn]

^
So there is someone who sees it like me.

[ElMariachi]

Without a similar TV Episode 15 in RE there are no anchor events of affection towards Shinji.
In RE there are instead several events of growing distance until there is no degree of love whatsover, which has everything to do with hate.

There was one event of affection, that was the role of the "pillow talk" scene, besides Asuka's later talk with Misato(just before the EVA-03 test run) reveals that her conversation with Shinji was the first time in her life that she confided herself to someone else, as well as realize that relying on someone else isn't a weakness, which is a lesson that she kept even 14 years later : the Shinikinami from the beginning of 2.0 would never make such an excellent teamwork with Mari.

Shikinami does not hold enough pieces of the puzzle nor has she been shown to be in pursuit of them so she would not understand how much Shinji is a victim of Gendo's agenda or even a relevant part of what Gendo's agenda is.

Since apparently WILLE knows everything about HIP, spears, Impacts, SEELE, Impact Triggers and whatnot, I really doubt that they don't know Shinji's vital importance to Gendo's plans 14 years ago, as well as his relevance to Gendo's plan after the time skip : Shinji is an Impact Trigger, neo-NERV abducted him, it's clear that they will try to make him pilot so he awakes an Evangelion and starts another Impact(which is what happened).
And Asuka also knows that Shinji was manipulated by Gendo : Gengo wants the ends of the world, Shinji claims that he wants to repair the world, besides he doesn't attack Asuka at all during their fight, so it's clear that Shinji thinks that he's doing WILLE a favor by pulling out those spears.

Shikinami shows selfish and immature reactions herself for it to be said that she is likely in any mindset from which it has been her well though out reaction to express frustration with a brat. There is a Shikinami frustration but it is, rather, with herself going through what is not the best
of outcomes (my left eye? none of your business...I'm the same? yes, curse of EVA).

Asuka's actual level of maturity due to the Curse of Eva has been a subject of fiery debates int he forum : she does shows that she grew-up from 2.0(her teamwork with Mari), but at the same time shows what looks like immature and impulsive behaviors(the megaton punch against the glass panel, her "none of your business" comment while it's clear that what happens to her eye is a consequence of Bardiel), besides she's pissed off during the interrogation, we can rule out that she's just still the kind of person who blow-up violently when frustrated and angered(Shinji can't have the exclusivity!)
And even at the end of the movie : sure she manhandles him, push him with her foot and pull his hair, but that's still fairly mild, especially if she's supposed to really hate : she would rather destroy his face with punches of kicks(and we know that she's able to do it!)
That manhandling is more akin to someone frustrated by a child's bad behavior and spanking him for it rather than someone hating someone else to the point that she wish he would be death, I doubt Asuka would had such restrain, especially after we saw her tantrum in the interrogation room earlier in the movie.

Far from any intention of saving Shinji from certain death by starvation/dehydration, Shikinami thought twice to better take him into custody and remove him lest she be responsible if NERV decided to rescue him again. Officers are not formally allowed to choke hold anyone to death; they are allowed to use their weapon of charge.

She planned to leave him because he refused to answer to her, nor he even got to help after his entry plug landed(although Mari explicitly asked Shinji to go help Asuka), she stopped after a few steps because simply leaving him here would mean his death : Shinji made it clear that he was not working for Gendo, but that he was manipulated by him, meaning that Gendo probably didn't counted on using him anymore(an Impact Trigger's main purpose is to awake Evangelions, once it's done they're not really needed anymore), besides I highly doubt that she didn't executed Shinji because officers are only formally authorized to use their weapon of charge : first Eva pilots don't have side weapons, and second if it was really imperative to kill Shinji, I doubt anyone in WILLE would bitch to Asuka that she choked him/broke his neck, strangulated him/left him to die alone instead of using an inexistent pistol.

Which part of 14 years of war don't you get ? That kind of timeframe, how would anyone doubt Shikinami allowing herself not to see Shinji for all effects and purposes as part of the enemy, an important asset to the enemy? Shikinami came through twice at all costs: ignition for the AAA Wunder during a deadly attack and destroying an Adam's vessel during 4th impact, situations with more at stake than euthenizing Shinji would be. It's not due to sentiment, the past, nor due to Shikinami having a basis to consider Shinji is not fighting for HIP to go through that Shikinami spared his life, it has to be for some greater benefit/need to WILLE (possibly him being the only one who can pilot EVA01) that he's now recaptured.

You're making WILLE worse that they are really : they're not only acting only through the lens of what's beneficial for WILLE, they aren't Gendo. Sure they are able to put the need of the many above one single individual when the situation calls for it(Asuka shoving the Wunder igniter), but they are also able to have human feelings and act upon said feelings and morale, that was the whole point of Misato(Wunder's CO, Miss "prioritize the objective over human life") not being able to detonate the DSS Choker to show us that they are not soulless people with a machine-like mind(unlike Gendo). Hell the mere fact that they took the risk of keeping him on custody instead of putting a bullet between his eyes the second he was reconstituted inside Unit 01's entry plug is an humane act.
WILLE are the good guys, the ones fighting for mankind, I really doubt that Misato would be as admired by her soldiers if she was a Gendo bis.

And Shinji can't pilot EVA-01 anymore, Ritsuko explicitly said that his synch-rate is now at 0.000% : even if by some crazy event he ended piloting EVA-01, it wouldn't activate, besides they absolutely don't want him anywhere near EVA-01, or any Eva anymore, so the fact that he can't pilot Unit 01(which he can't) didn't entered in account on why Asuka took him with her.

This is selective memory, it's not the reason Shikinami has spared Shinji's life: later in the same fight Shikinami authorized the use of ATF penetrating ammo against EVA13 with deadly consequence to Shinji had it been a normal EVA.

I don't know what moment you're talking about, but I'm talking about the end of the movie, the moment were Asuka authorized the use of anti-ATF ammo by Mari was before. And the reason she authorized it was because Shinji was literally seconds away from pulling out the spears, she had to stop him at any cost, even if it's by means potentially lethal to Shinji, that was already the case before the time skip when NERV used 14 years old people in the front line against the Angels, or when Shinji should have tried something to stop Bardiel and save Asuka, even if it carried the risk to harm her, there were simply no other options.(and Shinji failed to see that, leading to the Dummy System taking over with the gory consequences we know)
At the end of the movie, when Asuka found Shinji in his crashed entry plug, there wasn't any immediate life or death situation involving the sacrifice of someone. Besides you should notice that Asuka waited for the very last moment, when it was clear that she couldn't stop Shinji, before authorizing Mari to use these ammo.

No, they were not. Misato and Ritsuko casually exposing classified intelligence at a crucial point after 14 years of war?? What for? That sounds as if they were the ones being interrogated over at NERV. There were several minutes in which anyone in the interrogation scene could have uttered multiple two word reveals.

They were not going to explain nor reveal anything. Not the intention nor the purpose. Didn't you notice they were all contrived? Misato uptight, silent, crossed arms leaning against the wall - Ritsuko only explaining with need to know and scrambling desperately for round-about-means like asking Touji's little sister to introduce herself?

This thought may equal the delusion of class 2-A being a normal class in a normal school with normal students, normal children.

They were totally explaining to him everything, but there is a shit ton of things to cover before even going to the part where they explain to him for what he's being punished for. Besides they thought that neo-NERV didn't had any interesting in Shinji, and thus that they had the time to explain everything at a tranquil pace.
That's why they began with the less hard explanations, notice that it's actually Shinji who leads most of the briefing : after Ritsuko's little presentation with schematics, he asked what exactly do the DSS Choker, and they answered(it kills you if you awakes an Evangelion), then he asked why the fuck did they put a bomb around his neck, and yes Ritsuko sidetracked the conversation toward the time skip with the help of Sakura, now the question is why did she do that : just to be a prick on Shinji, or maybe because once he learns that he'll be so shocked that he won't listen to anything else(learning that you're essentially a war criminal who had a part into a mass devastation event is pretty shocking!), and thus divert his attention so they could talk about the most critical subject at the very end.
Anyway from the time skip reveal, the briefing gets interrupted by Asuka's barging in and smashing the glass wall, and Shinji change his train of question on what happened to Rei, which Misato answers : she "doesn't exist anymore". The problem is that before she had the time to explain what she meant by that(i.e. that Rei is absorbed inside EVA-01, and thus doesn't exist in this plane of existence anymore, but clones of her exists) Mark.09 attacked, which led to combat station and the interruption of the briefing since more urgent matters appeared, the time to deal with Mark.09 and later resume the briefing. Except that WILLE didn't know that Mark.09's objective was Shinji himself, which is why once it's fist got through the hull and Rei Q called Shinji to come with her, Misato was seen frantically trying to convince him that it's a trap and that he should stay with them, she even say that WILLE will protect him, not something you say to a prisoner you hate.

What's the point of keeping someone alive to punish him, yet not telling him why he's been punished?! I know that WILLE were passive-aggressive dicks toward Shinji, but that's going outright into cruelty.

And it was only Misato who was contrived, Ritsuko was fairly at ease in her info-dump : remember that Shinji being reconstituted by EVA-01 was a complete surprise, the iron rule was that once a pilot entered the Great Beyond Depth and was absorbed inside the Eva's core, it's game over : no turning back. So Misato suddenly has to deal with a ghost of her past without any warning or preparation, and worst, one that she tried to help get through his problems to make him a better person, that trusted her, and now she must considers him a war criminal, harsh.
That's why she opted for giving him the cold shoulder, but when the moment of truth came when Shinji escaped with Rei Q, when she had to chose between her duty(kill the Impact Trigger) and her heart(spare Shinji's life), she couldn't kill him.

[Redtophat]

She doesn't hate him, that's why she didn't let him starve to death in strawberry fields.

[Jimbob]

Yeah you guys really gotta get off the "Wille are hardcore sociopath soliders because they were mean to Shinji for a few minutes" thing.

[Stillborn]

One doesn't need to hate other to make his/her life miserable. Contempt is enough.

[Redtophat]

One doesn't need to hate other to make his/her life miserable. Contempt is enough.

I don't even know where you're going with this.