The Moral of Rebuild

[Gob Hobblin]

The way you lay out that decision, TMBounty_Hunter, actually made me see that dual dichotomy of her choice. On the one hand, it was a kind thing to do: on the other, it was running from a situation she wasn't prepared to deal with. Hardly immature, but not exactly adult, either.

[Bagheera]

This "very adult decision" is meaningless in the context of this thread because it is a win-win both for Asuka and everyone around her. Shinji was never, ever presented with such a glorious opportunity.

That's a fair point, but it's not like she was petulant about it. She saw the writing on the wall and acted accordingly, and while it might not have been all that remarkable it was nonetheless thoroughly rational. It was not the act of a child.

Gob: Yes, that's true. That's why I introduced both possibilities. We've called it a regression in the past, but it's hard to deny that there's something selfless about it. It's ultimately a complex decision, as is typical of people.

If Rei's maturity is so staggering then why is Shinji's immaturity so objectionable? Especially given his significantly lesser pilot training.

Because he's yet to demonstrate any? Yeah, that. Rei's been thinking long-term for the duration, and Shinji hasn't. It really is just that simple.

[Gob Hobblin]

That's a very rare trait for someone that age to possess. It's one of the reasons why I consider Rei to be a skewed factor when examining the behavior of Shinji and Asuka. She simply doesn't behave like other children, and why she does is subject to a whole range of conjecture of its own.

And it is a selfless act, I agree, even if there was an element of running in it. It is an act very specific to Shikinami, and not one Soryu would do in the same situation, and indicative of the difference in character.

I can't say that Shinji hasn't demonstrated an ability for seeing in the long term: it's just that when he's presented with the end run goal, he's either given the wrong information by accident or deceived into what the results could be. As a result, when he tries to do right, it backfires.

[Bagheera]

And it is a selfless act, I agree, even if there was an element of running in it. It is an act very specific to Shikinami, and not one Soryu would do in the same situation, and indicative of the difference in character.

I'm not sure I agree. IMO Soryu would have committed the same act, but in her case it would have very much been about running away. She wouldn't help someone else get her guy, no way, but running away to Eva is right up her alley. So same act, but different reasons.

I can't say that Shinji hasn't demonstrated an ability for seeing in the long term: it's just that when he's presented with the end run goal, he's either given the wrong information by accident or deceived into what the results could be. As a result, when he tries to do right, it backfires.

Note I said he hasn't demonstrated maturity, not an ability to think long-term. Although, now that I think about it, he hasn't demonstrated much in the way of the latter, either.

[Gob Hobblin]

I'm not sure I agree. IMO Soryu would have committed the same act, but in her case it would have very much been about running away. She wouldn't help someone else get her guy, no way, but running away to Eva is right up her alley. So same act, but different reasons.

Hmm...you make a strong point. I don't think I can disagree with that.

Nor do I disagree with the assessment of Shinji showing maturity: that was one of the points I was hitting on before. He is immature, and he is being forced to mature in one of the worst ways possible. He's going to produce a very flawed model for what he should and should not do.

[Bagheera]

Hmm...you make a strong point. I don't think I can disagree with that.

Nor do I disagree with the assessment of Shinji showing maturity: that was one of the points I was hitting on before. He is immature, and he is being forced to mature in one of the worst ways possible. He's going to produce a very flawed model for what he should and should not do.

At this point I think we are in complete agreement. The only question remaining is whether or not Anno is aware of this basic fact, and the extent to which he has factored it into the story at hand.

[TMBounty_Hunter]

EDIT: God damnit I spent so long rewriting this the conversation is already over.

Rei's been thinking long-term for the duration, and Shinji hasn't.

But why is that objectionable?

Why do you expect that out of him when he has never demonstrated that ability before? He hasn't even really lived. After being abandoned by Gendo he merely existed day to day, going to school, staying with his sensei or whoever. Even after he found a somewhat proper home at Misato's where he knows he can come in smiling saying Tadaima and knows he'll here Okaerinasai and see a smile in return. He finally found people to care about but he can still only live day to day because that is the limit of his abilities. But for a kid his age that is perfectly appropriate.

You are well aware of what a broken kid he is so why do you keep holding him to some significantly higher standard (while knowing there has been absolutely no narrative developmet in that general direction) and express disdain when he fails to meet it?


The problem is not with Shinji. He is an average kid, living and acting like one.

The problem lies in the fact that the adults put him in a world ending-machine without telling him.
The actually tell him it's a world-saving machine. All that is needed out of him are some synchro tests and occasional mentally and physically scarring battle against monsters out to destroy the world.

Other than that he is free to be a regular kid, go to school, make friends and do all the things regular kids do. That is the new life set up for him and he's perfectly content with that. Why wouldn't he be?

The one and only time he's ever told to try and use his brain is when Misato scolds him after Shamshel. Even that is an insufficient (not to mention an inappropriate) way to encourage him to try and be a more mature and forward-thinking person. After that it's back to day-to-day life.

His conditioning as a pilot is just sufficient enough to win against the angels.
His conditioning as a person is deliberately insufficient so that he can be manipulated.
The end goal of that manipulation is beyond the knowledge of those around Shinji in a position to positively influence him in a way to prevent that.
Even without knowledge of the Impacts and Instrumentality there could have been some encouragement for him to grow but that never happened.
By the time of Q Shinji's immaturity becomes an extremely important factor.
Gendo is aware of it and manipulates it perfectly.
Wille had to have been aware of it but handled it poorly.



EDIT 2:

The only question remaining is whether or not Anno is aware of this basic fact, and the extent to which he has factored it into the story at hand.

Ugh, the entirety of Q is based on this basic fact...


EDIT 3: went to shower before bed and realized what a ranty mess this is but fuck it, leaving the original up as a reminder not to rant and slam the submit button.

More consice point:
-Shinji is immature but that should be expected of him given the narrative developments throughout the films.
-It is unreasonable to hold him to higher standards exactly because of the above.
-While he is immature he is not entirely selfish and absolutely not in any way malicious. In the end he has a good heart and demonstrates it many time.
-The common arguement that he doesn't see he doesn't exist in a vacuum and should be considerate towards people also works the other way around because the others around him should have ensured his proper emotional and mental development.

[Chuckman]

It can't be overstated how much control Gendo has over him, even if it's by accident. It's awfully convenient that Gendo seemed to be manipulating Rei and Shinji to bond to the point that he was willing to lower himself to an awkward tea party with them, and when this bothersome other girl shows up and starts crawling into bed with him and asking Rei pointed questions about their relationship, she winds up in the Eva that gets taken over by the angel. This puts her in a perfect position to remove her from the game and make sure that Shinji will be in a state more likely to freak out if Rei is put in danger (which is basically inevitable at that point) and he gets to skip the lame lunch date.

[Chroma]

I think the problem here is that we have 2 camps ("Shinji is just a kid, lay off" and "Shinji needs to get his shit together and stop being selfish"), but most things aren't black and white, this topic included. Shinji is no normal 14 year old - he has a god-on-a-leash, terribly crazy parents, mental instability, and the literal world in his hands with his responsibility. But he's also no soldier. He's had no training, no experience, and so much power in his hands that it's unthinkable. Sometimes being obedient worked (Ramiel, angel-falling-from-the-sky-whose-name-escapes me), it was the wrong decision other times (Shamshel, Sachiel). There's no "route" that would've had total obedience or total disobedience be correct the entire time.

On one hand, Bagheera has a point: Shinji's main "strategy" in most of his battles is to listen to his authority and act in their wishes, and this (usually) works out in the end. And the times he doesn't (minus Shamshel), terribly shitty things happen to the world and the people he cares about. This is not debatable; Shinji is not really in a position to choose his own decisions when A) He's basically in the dark with just about everything and B) He's really not the most normal kid, both in his mentality (martyr, suicidal, willing to die for others, and yet selfish in a blind, teenage way) and his situation (giant robot, genocidal Lovecraftian horrors, horrible family).

On the other hand, I agree more with Gob in this case. He (I believe) posted something a few pages back that made a lot of sense: Shinji is one of the few people in the movie who truly knows the power, raw and god-like, of an EVA. I'd say it's truly only him, the other pilots, and Gendo. So, in a situation like the Bardiel fight, it's expected (imo) that he'd shut down mentally and stop fighting altogether. Not only would he refuse to hurt his friend (screw the "greater good", Shinji's character is clear over just about every facet of this franchise that those he cares about he values well above himself and the world), possibly killing them with the insane power of the EVA's, but even if he did know the world is in danger due to seeing Lilith, would that really be crossing his mind at the time? He's a teenage boy who's being faced with the huge possiblity of killing his friend, or dying himself - or hell, even both. There would be no good outcome for either decision, and so he shut down. And then witnessing the instinctual savagery of the DummySystem first hand had to fuck him up. His father abandons him to start it, his friend is being destroyed in a similar machine by the god-like entity he's in, and all he can do is sit in horror. There's no way he's going to make a good decision because there isn't one. Save the world? That'd require the unthinkable. Shinji isn't Jesus, despite the parallels - he's human, short-sighted, a bit selfish, and breaking down.

As for his decision to pull the spears in Q? This one's a bit harder to defend. Kawuro, the one person he trusts, is telling him not to and yet he continues on? This can only be justified with the simple fact that Shinji, like his father, has a one-track mind. He got this idea that pulling the spears would solve everything, and even Kawuro isn't going to take that desperate, misguided hope away. This was Shinji's chance at fixing all of the things he accidentally caused in Ha. This was his comeback, his fix. Only...it didn't work. The authority figures he'd been listening to were wrong, misguiding, flawed. And he, as usual, paid the price.

But back to Ha and Rei's saving - this was the first time in the movie since the Bardiel incident he was given a decision, and he took the one he thought would work, and would make him happy. Selfish? Yes, but it's not like Misato wasn't cheering him on and telling him to continue. Plus, his arm had been shot off and if it wasn't for the burst of power from his awakening, he'd been in Mari's situation pretty quickly.

Between Ha and Q he had to make a bunch of decisions, but whether he listened or didn't, or just stayed catatonic, they were almost always wrong. He just has really, really poor decision making skills.

[pwhodges]

If he is so horrible person, why Misato didn't blasted of his head when he escaped from Wunder?

It's absurd to leave such a simple question unanswered anyway: It's no more complicated than that neither Shinji nor Misato is a crudely drawn one-dimensional character, so such a response would have been too simplistic.

This would actually be good to remember at other points in this argument as well - the argument has been more polarised than the actual characters, and was in danger of making everybody wrong to some extent, simply by being too ready to discount the possibility of other people's views being part of the answer alongside the alternatives (though that's improved in the last few posts). [edited once I caught up]

[Kendrix]

Even if I'm very far from thinking Shinji is a horrible person, Misato didn't do that because she thought he should live.
She did it because she just couldn't do the other thing; It's emotional thing without great deliberations behind it.

The kid was the closest she had to a son. A mother's feelings don't just go away completely, even if the kid became a complete jackass. Not saying that Shinji is one, just saying that Misato sparing him is well within the margins of the crazy things that motherhood does to your brain. Misato underestimated that, having become so hardened that you wouldn't expect her to have such emotions left inside of her.


Either way, any "virtue of obendience" thing is rendered bullshit by the fact that both Kaji and Mari are considered good guys.
Mari is antiautoritanism in person, and she gets to save the world. Admittedly, doing what Asuka told her to, but it's clear that she knows a lot more than anyone else.
Saakamoto has confirmed her fort good-intentioned (if it wasn't apparent before) and loyal to wille; Her playing the game from this distant perspective is a lifestyle choice.

The think with Mari is, she's informed terribly well, with Shinji isn't. That's sort of changing, however, he deliberately inquired for WTF happened and became something of an active player on the map (albeit probably in a way that would have been impossible without Kaworu's support - but that's only human)
He's still not quite there, as Seele still got him to play by their strings, but the keyword here is probably information.

Yeah. People have to be told/taught stuff before they can know it. It's a bad thing we'll probably never get a talk between Yui and Barrette woman about different approaches to conspiracy parenting.

There's a lot of nice play with it, throughout the movie, too, the reactions of the various NERV personell to being in the know, and what knowledge did to them (Maya was broken by the dissapointment; Misato got herself an organization, and Asuka is just plain out for their asses.)

Someone else who doesn't have information is ReiQ. Seele and Gendo are not telling each other everything.

The biggest subversion, of course, is Kaworu, the go-to guy for in-universe mechanics being clueless... and shocked of his mind because of it.
I don't think he witheld or failed to express the full scope of what he knew would happen - most likely, he honestly didn't know what would happen, and "vaguely bad feeling, consider retreat" was genuinely the best thing he could come up with. Not even he knew what would happen, he just suspected it to be sort of bad.
You know, even if they had retreated and looked for a cassius spear, they'd still need at least one of the longinus ones... so why not grab them as well if you don't know bad bad stuff is being kept sealed by them?

There were a lot of crazy factors in play without which 4I may or may not have happened.

The party who seemed to know that removing spears = impact (Asuka and Mari) were notably the ones who knew about the sealed angel.

[Stillborn]

My point is, Bagheera earlier accused Shinji of not making mature decision of fighting Bardiel, and possibly sacrificing Asuka, to save everyone, because he didn't wanted the blood on his hands. And called him selfish for that reason.

But in Q, Misato, who is clearly a soldier, with MUCH more experience, and who no longer even likes Shinji, and knows perfectly what threat he is to the world, refused to kill him. Why? Because she didn't want his blood on her hands? Because she believed on some level he don't deserve it? Isn't that selfish taking good of the world into account?

Why would a mentally fraigle kid, scared of loneliness like Shinji should believe that sacrificing Eva with his friend inside is the correct choice, if even trained soldier like Misato, couldn't make similiar choice? And that should be easier for her.

[Kendrix]

Ah, that's what you mean. I get it. You're brilliant! In a way, that is EXACTLY the Bardiel decision, complete with chance of spontaneous planetary combustion.

And that was after years of probably barely remembering what Shinji looked like and thinking of him as "That thing that ruined everything."

In the case of Shinji and Asuka, he'd just become friends with her after a long and rocky journey, and the reason she was in the doomed EVA to begin with was because she was doing him a major favor - even more, she was there in Rei's stead, whose EVA they weren't gonna grant any repair money for.

Sure, Gendo may have called in some favors with the Europeans to pull a freeze on EVA 02 and thus make sure he gets to keep zerogoki since he still needs it, but Shinji doesn't know that.


Sure, fightin Bardiel probably wouldn't have as high a lethality chance as a freaking bomb, but again, Shinji fights almost entirely on caveman instinct, he has nothing else to fall back on, and Bardiel is a strong enemy that he probably can't defeat unless he fights it for real; At very least, he doesn't have the confidence that he's far enough above this thing's level to attack it with precision/kid gloves, he's got no experience at that.

Made even worse by core present on entryplug.

Sure the ideal course of action would be "fight bardiel, Asuka's gonna die anyway, either by Dummy plug or third impact", what he'd do if he was, like, VERY exceptional. If he'd already learned the message before the actual lesson so to speak; That's the first major ethical dilemma he's been in, and he's just a random kid. Note that either continuity has him get that the very next occassion. Anime Shinji IS willing to squash Kaworu, and Rebuild Shinji ultimately engages Asuka in serious battle for what he thinks is a chance to fix the planet. In both cases, actually going through with it all but destroys him.

You just can't expect him to get everything right the first time.

Also, train experiment.
Common psychological experiment.

Scenario one: You have an out of control rail. One with one person on it, one with five. What rail do you send the train to?

Here, most ppl rationally chose to sacrifice the one person.

Scenario two: Just one rail, five people on it. You have the option of pushing a random corpulent person in front of the train to stop it.
Still the same 1 against 5 odds, but this time you'd have to override your basic emotional barrier of "I don't kill people"
Even when it was a still fairly distanced paper scenario and not real life, most ppl says they wouldn't be able to push the guy.

Keep in mind that Shinji never had to kill an actual human before, just gooey monsters that barely look real. And this is the kind of guy who already beats himself up over collateral damage (Note how 2.0 repatedly reimphasized his complex about the whole Sakura thing? )

[Bagheera]

My point is, Bagheera earlier accused Shinji of not making mature decision of fighting Bardiel, and possibly sacrificing Asuka, to save everyone, because he didn't wanted the blood on his hands. And called him selfish for that reason.

Because then everyone dies, see? That is kinda selfish.

But in Q, Misato, who is clearly a soldier, with MUCH more experience, and who no longer even likes Shinji, and knows perfectly what threat he is to the world, refused to kill him. Why? Because she didn't want his blood on her hands? Because she believed on some level he don't deserve it? Isn't that selfish taking good of the world into account?

No, because she has no particular reason to think her lack of action will certainly lead to the world's destruction. He might heed their warnings and not do something stupid. His mere existence is not enough to wreck the world. That potential for other outcomes was not present in the Bardiel fight; the only choices there were fight or throw the world away (including the person in the entry plug, if she was even still alive).

Why would a mentally fraigle kid, scared of loneliness like Shinji should believe that sacrificing Eva with his friend inside is the correct choice, if even trained soldier like Misato, couldn't make similiar choice? And that should be easier for her.

Because fighting doesn't mean sacrificing her (which is confirmed by the fact she lives even after the Dummy System goes apeshit on Bardiel) and failing to fight does. This isn't about making sacrifices for the greater good, it's about taking the only action that can even possibly lead to a good outcome for anyone since failing to do so means EVERYBODY DIES.

[Kendrix]

No, because she has no particular reason to think her lack of action will certainly lead to the world's destruction.

If she didn't, she would be attempting to shoot his head off. Ritsuko's words are pretty obvious.

Besides, the point is that Shinji didn't, like, PICK "I don't personally off Asuka and everybody dies" - It was a freezing up with panic thing, he could not bring himself to do it. (Just like Misato just COULD not kill him, despite of what her logic told her. At this point, it was a long time since she had to compromise her ethics; She thought she had long since made peace with sacrificing humans, she doesn't bat an eyelash for those poor ppl doing repairs/work where she sent EVA 02. But Shinji wasn't just any human to her... )

That's perhaps painfully naive, and nothing that will get you far on a battlefield, but very far from "selfish asshole only thinks about his own butt".

He's never been in anything LIKE that situation before.

Last time he was in an all out new situation without prior warning?
All he could do against Sachiel was shiver in fear.

Any definition that would classify Shinji as "selfish" would do so with 90% of humanity - just LOOK out there. He's certainly no Ghandi or Mother Theresa, but he's shown quite a few commendable features; It's just that even mostly nice ppl have limits, and what spills out when you break a human being is seldom all pretty, but that would be the case with all of us;
14 year olds are liable to get all angsty or slightly bratty with far less provocation and justification, you know?

[Gob Hobblin]

Further, the concept of EVERYBODY DIES is an abstract thought within a human's logical framework, but 'MY BEST FRIEND MIGHT DIE' is not. So, while there may have been that knowledge that his actions could lead to Armageddon (which I still doubt Shinji was aware of, in most of the situations he was in), he was also warring with the very obvious fact that someone he knew about, he CARED about, was in front of him about to die.

It is possible for him to pick the welfare of the individual over the welfare of the planet and still not be selfish (this isn't to say it's the RIGHT choice, because it's a lot more complicated than that), simply because having someone say 'Everyone will die if you don't do this,' is not a concrete, solid thing: even though he KNEW it could happen, there was nothing to back it or raise its' importance in his mind. It wasn't 'real.' The power of an Eva was, and unleashing it on someone that was important to him becomes unthinkable. One dire outcome becomes more 'real' than the other, so he stops.

I also keep thinking of the earlier thread where it was discussed that Shinji, more or less, does what people above him tell him to do, where in this case he does not. They say ‘Kill this thing,’ and he says ‘No,’ and simply submits. He wasn’t satisfied with the solutions they had given him, but if they had told him a way to fight the Eva and save the Pilot, would he still have simply lied there and taken it? That adds a different layer to how his fight progressed. If you don’t like the options in front of you, you can make new options or just stop playing. Both times Shinji have tried these avenues, they’ve ended in failure: when he stopped playing, people above him took over and things became worse, and when he made new options, he jumped the wrong way. Still, I can’t say the driving force behind that rationale is selfishness: not liking bad options is not in and of itself a selfish decision.

[ElMariachi]

I suppose so, but given how that only led to him making mistakes with even bigger consequences, I'm not sure if it's proper to call it "learning" anything.
If you learn a lesson, but fail to learn the right one, does it still count?

Either way, come 3.0 he seems to have forgotten it entirely, unless we count the part were he slapped Asuka "for the greater good".

Well, it goes back to the subject this discussion originally came from : is Shinji really responsible for 3I? Is his N3I at the end of 2.0 really what wrecked the world? Was it put on standby when Kaworu impaled EVA-01 with the LoC and resumed later when Mark.06 took it off to fight the 12th Angel? Or did Shinji had nothing to to with the actual 3I and it was triggered by the 12th Angel/SEELE/Mark.06/Lilith?

But in the end in doesn't really matters because he only corrected one of the two flaws :

- before he did nothing when the situation wasn't at his liking, and was extremely stubborn, that lead to the passive Shinji Ikari we saw in 1.0, most of 2.0 and all of NGE.

- if he only learn that running away leads to nothing but not to stop being so stubborn and to not listening to others when things get sour, then he basically behaves like Gendo, the prime example being in 3.0 with the spears business.

If Shinji really wants to become a better person, he needs to corrects both flaws, to learn that he must act if he want his wishes to come true, but also that he must be more open to the others' wishes, then and only then he will be able to be someone grown-up, in whom WILLE can place their trust and who will stop being so easily manipulated by Gendo.

As for the "bitch-slap", honestly that was not even close to Asuka's level of aggressiveness in this fight, if anything Asuka should be relieved that Shinji still had enough of his sanity then so that he didn't impaled her head with her own glaive when she ended out of battery!

No, because she has no particular reason to think her lack of action will certainly lead to the world's destruction. He might heed their warnings and not do something stupid. His mere existence is not enough to wreck the world. That potential for other outcomes was not present in the Bardiel fight; the only choices there were fight or throw the world away (including the person in the entry plug, if she was even still alive).

Are you kidding? Shinji is an Impact Trigger, neo-NERV and SEELE want him to do Impacts, do you really think that if Shinji simply refuses to pilot the Eva, Gendo and the monoliths will drop the matter?

They will make him trigger 4I, whether Shinji want it or not : Mark.09 took Shinji away before he could be properly informed about Gendo's goals, and the man is a master manipulator, he had all the skill necessary to make Shinji believe that piloting EVA-13 is for the good of the world(hell, even with Kaworu actually telling him what Gendo is up too, he managed to manipulate them both!), and if it fails, they could always simply brainwash Shinji into complete obedience, Gendo and Fuyu were already thinking of that option to forces him to participate in operation Yashima in 1.0.

So yeah, the parallel between Bardiel and Misato not blowing up Shinji can be compared, at least up to a certain point : short of the self-destruction of NERV HQ, Shinji was the last line of defense against Bardiel, while Misato still had the Wunder and her two Evas to stop neo-NERV later... but even then it was a very close call, and only worked because Kaworu didn't joined the fight against Asuka and because he weakened EVA-13 with the spears and his own sacrifice to leave Mari with an opportunity to stop 4I for good, had this not happened WILLE would only have been able to watch helplessly as EVA-13 achieves Instrumentality and Mark.09 happily hijack them(because I really doubt that Asuka would have been in any state to fight if Kaworu joined the fight with Shinji)






Anyway, back on the subject of the topic : I don't think that the moral of Rebuild is the virtue of simple obedience as Chuckman said, because blindly obeying would mean playing into Gendo's and SEELE's hands.
Simply obeying would mean that Shinji should have just "destroyed the enemy" against Bardiel(i.e. "Screw the pilot, she's already a lost cause!" And her surviving had nothing to do with it, her surviving was a pure fucking miracle, no one really expected her to survive the Dummy System massacre)

The force of the greater good in 2.0 where Kaji, a spy who didn't obeyed to SEELE or Gendo by spying on both, and Mari, who is a crazy anti-authority. How do you thing WILLE ended up being created and Misato and most of NERV personel defected? Certainly not by blindly following the orders, but by questioning their superior's authority.

You have a good example of blind obedience in Rebuild : Rei Q. She almost a drone, blindly following whatever order Gendo gave her, and only began her character development when she started questioning what Gendo told her about who she was, and finally by disobeying orders by abandoning her post when Mark.09 was hacking the Wunder!


Chuckman said that that Shinji "neither needs nor deserves an explanation; he should accept the word of his elders at face value and when he doesn't, it leads to further suffering." But the world of his elders is the world that SEELE carefully crafted during the past millennia, the world were HIP was "programmed since times immemorial", that SEELE and Gendo are manipulating to bring forth said HIP.
But WILLE are the good guys by actively refusing said world of their elders(and SEELE are elder than anyone else, being immortals and here since before the start of civilization), by telling to SEELE : "screw your world, we will take our destiny in our own hands and rebuild the world into one that doesn't need Instrumentality!"

And there is also the fact of how Gendo manipulated Shinji in Q by completely keeping him in the dark...

In my opinion, the moral of Rebuild isn't the virtue of obedience, but to work to make our own wishes come true, but without discarding the other wishes, sometimes that means following what other people says and obeying, and other times is thinking by yourself and questioning what surrounds you.

Blind obedience is as bad as complete individualism, we must find an healthy balance between the two.

[Gob Hobblin]

That's an excellent point, and hits on that issue of responsibility of superiors versus subordinates. One can argue that the morality of Shinji's refusal to act can be in refusing to act on the orders of superiors who had questionable motives. In this sense, his actions are not selfish (at least, not to his knowledge), because to act would have resulted in the exact same outcomes. It just so happened he was manipulated into doing those acts either way...

That Gendo is slippery bastard.

[Stillborn]

@ElMariachi:

The defiance against the elders, worked for Kaji. Worked for Mari and worked for WILLE... It works for everyone BUT Shinji. Shinji is constantly shown that if HE defy, things crumble. No, its apparent that Shinji specifically, can't make any good choice by himself, can do nothing good without being pulled or pushed by someone "better". He have to blindly follow orders of those who narrative tells us are CURRENTLY good guys. AND he have to be happy with doing THIS. That's the only way for him to be happy. "Happines in slavery" so to speak, in the form of being happy to be always on the proverbial leash for the "good guys at this moment".

[Conspicuous]

I sincerely doubt that the Bardiel incident was supposed to have "obedience/conformism" as its moral, since the primary symbol of that obedience, the Dummy System, is consistently depicted as an unholy terror which manages to be worse than what its fighting.

We already had this when Misato, whom was previously established as a competent and compassionate authority figure, talks about how she doesn't trust the new system, and that she prefers them to be controlled by humans.
And then we get to the actual Bardiel situation, where Misato has been removed from the equation leaving Gendo in charge, who is shown to be a terrible authority figure and individual.

The presented goal for the audience in this situation is Asuka, whom was previously shown in a vulnerable and sympathetic light, to ensure that the audience would properly relate to her. In this situation, she becomes the "prize" to be won, and the ultimate goal is that she is recovered safely from the Eva.
Between Shinji and Gendo, Gendo presents the decision to destroy Eva-03 and its pilot alongside it, while Shinji presents the option of doing nothing and letting the Angel run free. It's a situation where Shinji's individuality conflicts with Gendo's authority, but the most important part is this:

Both of their options are total shit.

No matter which one would be taken, the prize would be lost. Asuka would either be killed by Shinji's hand, or Bardiel's, and neither Shinji nor Gendo was really doing the best thing for her sake.
So that just led to Gendo, failing to acquire Shinji's willing obedience, to take it by force through the Dummy System. The system is then immediately shown to be a monster in its own right, as we see through the reactions of the Bridge Crew, in their usual role as representative of "normal" humans. Their absolutely terrified by what it did, and rightfully so. And as the extension of Gendo's will, Gendo himself is also to be considered that monster, a position that's confirmed once 3.0 squarely places him in the role of the "villain", the enemy of mankind.

Even the Eva rejects the Dummy System, as it desires, nay, demands a human in control. Not obedience, but an individual who can obey or reject orders as they wish. An individual driver which can do the right thing, since authority isn't always right either, as we've seen with Gendo.

Of course, as with many things, it's 3.0 which cements this notion of the role of individuality.
We had already established Asuka as the primary representative of individuality, both the good and bad aspects of it, and in her case, her arc in 2.0 involved her learning to think about others beyond herself, and become part of the team. However, this is turned around in 3.0, where she has learned to always put the world before her own sake, but retains her position as the champion of individuality through her interactions with the champion of obedience, Rei Q.
Rei lacks any sort of individuality, and is pretty much just a tool to be used. Her obedience is all but guaranteed, and she faithfully enacts Gendo's will.
Later on, her willing obedience even ends up overridden by SEELE's forced obedience, through their own Dummy Program, until the climax of Rei's story, where she is forced into conflict with Asuka, the aforementioned champion of individuality, who ends up destroying SEELE's control and makes Rei assume her individuality, which leads to her rejecting Gendo's orders and follow Asuka of her own desire, which is an event that's then presented as a positive thing.

Her newfound individuality is a positive development of her character, and as such I cannot see why Rebuild would present conformism as its goal.
As far as I can see, neither perfect individualism nor perfect obedience is the goal here. There's always an all important balance to be struck between those two. One should listen to your superiors if their decisions are correct and wise, and reject them if their decisions are wrong.
In 2.0, the "correct" decision would have been to reject Gendo's order and prioritise the recovery of Asuka from the Eva (although I would like to reiterate that I don't consider it reasonable to expect Shinji to make that decision), and in 3.0 the correct decision would have been to listen to Kaworu and Asuka and give up on his plan to restore the world. At one point he was supposed to reassert his individuality, and in the other cede to authority, and the driving factor would be about who said authority was, and if said authority had the correct desires and understanding of the situation.

Really, Shinji's mistakes in these films are pretty much all borne from ignorance. He failed to understand the consequences of letting Bardiel run free (Asuka's death and also that of the rest of the world), the consequences of invoking the Eva's least understood functions in an effort to recover Ayanami (Third Impact), and the consequences of releasing Lilith/Mark.06/Twelfth Angel from the spears (Fourth Impact).
In 3.0, it's made pretty clear that Shinji outright rejects those who don't fall in line with his views of the situation, made most clearly when he claims that Misato and Asuka are the ones who fail to understand the situation. However, Shinji himself is the one who is truly clueless, given that he spent fourteen years sleeping while everything changed, and how he knows nothing about Lilith's current situation and how that came to be. Had he understood his own position, I doubt he would've gone through with it, since he would've understood that others have a better grasp of the consequences of pulling the spears and if he should've gone through with it.

Shinji definitely has the drive and desire to act and make things better, but without the wisdom to temper that drive, he can only ever make the situation worse.
In that way, it reminds me of Asuka in the original series, whose drive and determination was second to none, but who nonetheless managed to make things worse for herself and everyone else with every venture she undertook, since she had absolutely no idea what she was doing.
In addition, the plot was contrived in every way to ensure that she could only fail at accomplishing her desires, and Rebuild is pretty much she same, but aimed more at pulling that stuff on Shinji.

Either way, Rebuild condemns blind obedience and individual foolishness in equal measure, and the correct position definitely lies somewhere in the middle, where both parties are working together to do the right thing as opposed to enforcing their own beliefs, even when they are wrong.