Sakura's line, "Give us a break"

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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Postby Kendrix » Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:47 pm

View Original Postwiser3754 wrote:
Misato, her commanding officer, is demanding Shinji stay where he is while threatening him with the detonator and Sakura says "Go if you have to but please just don't pilot EVA". Does she not see that her Captain is planning to kill him if he leaves and yet she tells him to go if he has to knowing that Misato might pull the trigger?


She's saying that in case he gets away/doesn't listen, because, uh, it would kinda help if he had some irkling that getting back into an EVA would be a bad idea; moreover, she's effectively saying that she can understand while he would want to leave WILLE.
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Postby wiser3754 » Thu Jul 04, 2013 5:46 am

View Original PostObsessiveMathsFreak wrote:
Sakura and the detonator  SPOILER: Show

[wkimg]Eva3-33_C0389.jpg[/wkimg]
[wkimg]Eva3-33_C0392_a.jpg[/wkimg]



Notice Sakura's hand? It's tensely clinging to Ritsuko's coat as if she's waiting for the inevitable. Also one point I'd like to make, Misato is the Captain, Sakura is 2nd Lt, when your Captain says to a prisoner stay put and you tell the prisoner otherwise, you're overruling your superior.
Last edited by wiser3754 on Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Monk Ed » Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:15 am

I interpreted that tightened hand (seeing it earlier today, not when I first watched the movie) as signifying Sakura's hope that Misato would not press the detonator, rather than "waiting for the inevitable".
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Postby wiser3754 » Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:35 am

View Original PostMonk Ed wrote:I interpreted that tightened hand (seeing it earlier today, not when I first watched the movie) as signifying Sakura's hope that Misato would not press the detonator, rather than "waiting for the inevitable".


Considering how much of a stone cold person Misato now personifies, I wouldn't have doubted that she would have pulled the trigger, but surprise, she didn't (this is from Sakura's disposition of Misato I imagine). Also love the way Misato is clenching her teeth, and her thumb and index tremble whilst withholding from pulling the trigger.
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Postby TruthfulLie » Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:57 am

Knowing what she had said to Shinji after finding out that his synch ratio had gone to zero, I suppose that it makes sense she was hoping for Misato to not pull the trigger.

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Postby ElMariachi » Thu Jul 04, 2013 8:39 am

View Original PostTruthfulLie wrote:Knowing what she had said to Shinji after finding out that his synch ratio had gone to zero, I suppose that it makes sense she was hoping for Misato to not pull the trigger.

That makes me think : could someone see if we saw a reaction from Sakura when Ritsuko urged Misato to use the DSS Choker?
Maybe she looked shocked and suddenly feared that by saying that he can go, she sent the poor boy to his death?
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Postby Giji Shinka » Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:27 am

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:That makes me think : could someone see if we saw a reaction from Sakura when Ritsuko urged Misato to use the DSS Choker?
Maybe she looked shocked and suddenly feared that by saying that he can go, she sent the poor boy to his death?

No, we didn't see any.....She only had her grumpy face on...
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Postby fleeting » Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:46 pm

The tight hand could be the tension of knowing she could get sucked out of wunder through the gaping hole a few feet away...
But I agree she is anxious Misato might 'esplode Shinji.

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Postby wiser3754 » Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:28 am

View Original Postfleeting wrote:The tight hand could be the tension of knowing she could get sucked out of wunder through the gaping hole a few feet away...
But I agree she is anxious Misato might 'esplode Shinji.


Ever watch a horror movie or something you know horrific is about to happen, you tense up, clench your teeth and your hand tries to find the nearest thing to clasp onto in preparation for the event (usually your thigh).
Also, look where Misato is standing, basically on the outside of the ship, so no, I think Saukra herself knows she won't be sucked out even though it's strange that decompression didn't occur when Mark.09 punched through the hull.

By the way, when Sakura is on a receiver during Mark.09's search, she mentions "We're ready" before she tells Shinji to come with her. Ready for what, were they planning to subject Shinji to something similar to what Asuka was subjected to or was she waiting for the airlock on the quarantine room to open up?
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Postby ElMariachi » Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:06 am

I suppose that the Wunder wasn't flying at a very high altitude(I doubt the ships of the fleet are pressurized for high altitude flying!), or maybe the Wunder's AT Field keep it's surroundings pressurized.
In both case, soon after you see Asuka looking at the Mark.09 leaving through an opened hatch on the roof, and she didn't had any problems to breath.

As for Sakura saying "we're ready" in the telephone, for me the most logical thing is that an escort for Shinji was getting ready, and Sakura told them that they(she and Shinji) are ready to join them to bring him wherever he was to be sent to assure his safety, probably back in his cell.

A similar thing probably happened off-screen when Shinji had gone from the Command Bridge to the quarantine zone at the beginning of the movie : I doubt Sakura was sent alone to escort Shinji(what if he was mentally contaminated and could fry her with a though?), the four soldiers that where pointing guns at him where probably just on stand outside the Command Bridge and escorted him to his cell. A shame we didn't saw this scene, it would have been interesting to show us more of Shinji's confusion, especially if they ran into more crew member along the way, to see if their reaction are as venomous the Command Bridge crew's.
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Postby wiser3754 » Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:16 am

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:
A similar thing probably happened off-screen when Shinji had gone from the Command Bridge to the quarantine zone at the beginning of the movie : I doubt Sakura was sent alone to escort Shinji(what if he was mentally contaminated and could fry her with a though?), the four soldiers that where pointing guns at him where probably just on stand outside the Command Bridge and escorted him to his cell. A shame we didn't saw this scene, it would have been interesting to show us more of Shinji's confusion, especially if they ran into more crew member along the way, to see if their reaction are as venomous the Command Bridge crew's.


Find it bizarre that it's a quarantine zone and Sakura isn't wearing any protective clothing, let alone anyone else who was in proximity with Shinji?

And I've just noticed, when Misato is demanding Shinji to stay, the Detonation function hasn't been activated (there's no screen), until he leaves, the screen appears, so yeah, maybe that's why Sakura tells him to leave if he has to.

Also, doesn't Sakura use the term "san" every time she uses Ikari, while everyone else (on the WUNDER) uses "kun"?
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Postby ElMariachi » Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:41 am

They probably did a battery of tests to make sure he's not physically contaminated, core-ify everything around him or have some mutant angelic virus that could kill them all, so there wasn't any need for protective gear.
And frankly I don't even think that the Wunder really have a quarantine zone for non-friendly people : if you look at Shinji's cell, it looks more like a brig(the cell have bars instead of a wall of reinforced glass), and when Mark.09 punched an hole through the "interrogation room", the loud speaker said that the "temporary quarantine interrogation room" is attacked, meaning that this room was outfitted for the occasion(and indeed, if you look closely the green containers have the "pollution" and "bio-hazardous" logo on them!)
The Wunder probably have a proper quarantine zone with glass walls and medical equipment for when something goes wrong with an EVA or the reactor, but it's for the crew members, which won't try to start a ruckus.


Sakura always use the "-san" with Shinji, or occasionally "Specimen BM-03".

Misato calls him "Ikari Shinji-kun"(she already called him like that in the previous movies when she was about to scold him, like when he ran away after the battle against Shamshell in 1.0) or "Shinji-kun".

Asuka calls him the old "baka Shinji"(and later "gaki Shinji")

Ritsuko don't even call him by any name, only "you".

The rest of WILLE don't even talked to him.
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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Fri Jul 05, 2013 5:33 am

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:Sakura always use the "-san" with Shinji, or occasionally "Specimen BM-03".
Misato calls him "Ikari Shinji-kun"....
Asuka calls him the old "baka Shinji"(and later "gaki Shinji")...
Ritsuko don't even call him by any name, only "you".
The rest of WILLE don't even talked to him.

This could be a play on the NGE idea that there are multiple version of ourselves which exists in each others heads.

Going back to Sakura, I think it's clear from her clenched hand and general attitude that she does not want Misato to pull the trigger. Sakura is genuinely sympathetic towards Shinji, which in itself tells us a lot. If she is, then there are reasons to be sympathetic towards Shinji which outweigh reasons to be angry with him -- at least for some. The horror of his crimes cannot be that extreme.

The only time Sakura's sympathy cracks is when Shinji declares that he will pilot Eva-01 to help Asuka. Kitakami almost becomes apoplectic, and Sakura actually clenches her fist in response.
Sakura, Katakami reactions  SPOILER: Show


Shinji: Misato-san! Eva-01 is here, isn't it?
I'll pilot, too!
I'll help Asuka!

[wkimg width=640]Eva3-33_C0260_kitakami_react.jpg[/wkimg]
[wkimg width=640]Eva3-33_C0261_sakura_fist.jpg[/wkimg]
[wkimg width=640]Eva3-33_C0262_sakura_react.jpg[/wkimg]

Sakura's last reaction shot here appears to be a bookend to the first bridge reaction shot.

[wkimg width=640]File:Eva3-33 C0128 Shinji Sakura.jpg[/wkimg]


Sakura and Katakimi reactions hold the key to Shinji's role in 3I, and the blame placed on him because of it. Whatever he has said or done here has touched a raw nerve in not one, but two people, if not more.

There are a few possibilities for what was so provocative in what Shinji said. Firstly, it could simply be his declaration that he will pilot Eva-01. Secondly, it could be the emotion he displayed when declaring that he could help Asuka. Going by Ritsuko's later words about Shinji "succumbing" to his emotions, I tend to suspect his tone, combined with the idea of piloting Eva-01 was what touched a nerve.

Finally, there's another possibility: Shinji declaring that he would help Asuka. Perhaps he is blamed for what happened to Asuka (having done nothing against Bardiel), or perhaps Asuka is not well liked among the crew. An outside possibility, but may need to be considered.

In either case, it is something that Shinji did right at this moment that caused even Sakura to crack. It's probably a big hint towards what Shinji is being punished for.
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Postby ElMariachi » Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:05 am

Interesting analysis, but there is another time were Sakura's sympathy cracks : when Misato arms the DSS Choker and Shinji asks for it to be removed, we see her looking up and murmur that "there's no way that's ever coming off." That was her exact word according to the GitHub translation.

So even if she sympathize with Shinji's situation, she sill thinks that he deserves the punishment of the DSS Choker, which is I recall basically a fancy bomb collar for Angels!

As for the reactions of Midori and Sakura, another possibility is that they are annoyed by his request because they don't find he's worthy of helping(and even less piloting EVA-01) : remember that by the time of 3.0 Shinji is the only child left in the Wunder, everyone else is an adult, even Sakura and technically the two pilots. So Shinji is not only a kid, but also proved on more than one occasion that he's unreliable(when he lost it against Shamshell, when we attacked the HQ after Bardiel, the fight against Zeruel where he accidentally triggered N3I)... and now you have the same emotive and unstable kid who didn't changed at all since the past 14 years since he was "frozen", who comes and request to pilot again to help them!
You probably saw various series of movies where you have a group or crew of military/adventurers/explorers highly trained and all adults, and with them there is a teenager who want to join the fight? Usually he's portrayed as an annoying kid who don't know what he's doing and is shooed away by the crew who told him this is "adult's business and not a game".
Well here the crew is the Bridge Bunnies, and the annoying teen is Shinji.
In that shot of Midori's reaction, she's also letting a "tch" of annoyance, like the one of an adult irritated by something stupid a child just said.


Another possibility is that it's not really the fact that he want to help that touched a raw nerve, but the fact that it's EVA-01 he's talking about : for all we know last time the older ones saw it, it was becoming a god and launching an Impact, and the FoIs that must have been the most insane and nightmarish part of Third Impact were all copies of EVA-01, suggesting that she had something t do with these dudes. It's very probable that EVA-01 became the image of the devil in the collective mind(the JSSDF Commander already called it "the devil" in EoE), when someone think of the face of evil and destruction, EVA-01 comes in mind.
And now WILLE have to use this thing to power their battleship, it's possible that they previously tried every other options to power it before resigning themselves to free it from its space prison and put it in the heart of the "Ship of hope", so they are understandably less than thrilled at the prospect of letting it loose, especially if the one asking for it is the pilot of this thing!


Also, it could be that they don't know if he's human, or that a wariness against everything related to the Evangelions, pilot included, has grown with the years, and Shinji is suffering from this discrimination. After all the Evangelions and Angels are the responsible of all the suffering mankind has endured since 2I, and currently the known pilots consist of an half-crazy British girl, a German fury who have her right eye glowing blue on occasions beneath her eyepatch, a blue-haired red-eyed girl continuously cloned to keep fighting against them, a fucking Angel(if Kaworu's existence is common knowledge, since the DSS Choker was built for him I suppose it's the case), and a boy who passed the past decade and half fused with the "Devil"! And none of these guys seems to age at all since the past 14 years!

So sure Sakura is sympathetic toward Shinji for everything he's enduring(Toji probably told her how much he was suffering in trying to protect mankind, notably the time he was in Shinji's entry plug when he fought Shamshell), but still thing that he deserves at least the DSS Choker as punishment. Now the question is for what exactly he's being punished.




Oh, and about Sakura's line in Japanese that SDD posted on the previous page :
ホンマ、カンベンして欲しいわ

Most of the online translators give me : "I want you to forgive Honma", or the "In truth, forgiveness want to."
But, Google translate give me : "Really, I want a break"!

So... which one is correct, because that line have some influence in Sakura's portrayal? :headscratch:
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Postby Kendrix » Fri Jul 05, 2013 6:27 pm

That word for "forgive" is also occasionally used in context of "allow" or "let", like "I won't let this happen again!" or similar context, isn't it?

I would say that this is less Sakura's "symapthy cracking",as she does conciously surpress that reaction - she's really trying her best to be fair to Shinji, she just has these ape-ish gut reactions.
Her brother was killed and she's no Mary Sue - that she does bother to fight these feelings down and consider his really says a lot about how noble she is.

She doesn't get a closeup, but look at her face during Asuka's little display - Even she seems shocked/partially sympathetic to Shinji.

I don't think she considers the DSS choker any sort of "punishment", more that she just doesn't want any more death and destruction. (The "give us a break!" and "Not again!" translations would further reeinforce that)
("Isn't it a good thing you can't synch anymore?" - Because he'll be considered less of a threat. Contrast with Ritsuko's "Even if you got in there, you couldn't do shit [to us.]" )

Contrast with Midori, who looks positively pissed and unforgiving, like, "You really think we're gonna let you doom us again?" He's unknowingly reminding them all of a painful tragedy that may have cost some of them friends and relatives, after all.


---

At the guy with the screenshots: Nice job!

As with many things in the movie, it's all in the details. I never noticed Sakura's hand there; The fact that she's hiding behind her already gave me an irkling that she might be a subordinate/protegée of Ritsuko's, but this confirmed it.
She was also looking sorta sad/ definitely hoping for a peaceful resolution and scared of other outcomes, both the Mk 9 and/or Shinji causing more destruction AND the DSS choker being activated.

She may be the only one in-universe/at least partially aknowledging that they sort of drove Shinji into this position with their treatment of him, which is why she doesn't hold him leaving against him.
This was more about Sakura as a person/ Sakura and Shinji's relationship that it was about any Sakura/Rest of WILLE angle.

Other subtle details of this scene are how Ritsuko briefly gives Misato a "soft"/sympathetic look after she fails to off Shinji (as if understandy why her old friend couldn't do that) but then, her gaze hardens again and she goes back to business mode. Still, she spares Misato having to call off the pursuit herself. There are multiple situations where Ritsuko seems to be doing the talking because she's more cool-headed than the others, who are really emotionally charged, including the "let me pilot!" scene.


Or Misato's posture.
It's something I found father amazing, that she looks completely "stretched ou" in a full body motion, absolutely ready to fire, like a statue of sorts, and even when you see her hand, you can't tell if it's her hand shaking or the vibrations from the Wunder's flight...
but then, the shot just won't come. Everything is prepared, but it won't come.
And shee remains that way, in that pose, even after he's left, only putting down her arm much later, sort of mechanically, in discreet, abrupt steps, and then, we see her from behind and she somehow look so old.
It strikes me as the way you would normally have a man's emotions shine through, or dunno, maybe it's that you don't see that many female versions of this character archetype.
Just the paradox of her pose/readyness, absolute cruel calmness in her voice... and the lack of BOOM.
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Postby wiser3754 » Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:11 am

Got a question here about WILLE pretence on Shinji's memory, did they know that he didn't know about Third Impact, or did they think because he remembers who is that he knew what he'd done?

Because honestly, I get the feeling that Sakura thought he knew about it, but really isn't taking the guilt very well. If they didn't know he knew why keep it from him (aside for plot reasons)? I don't his shock, guilt or disbelief would mean anything to them anyway.
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Postby ElMariachi » Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:25 pm

They probably know that he don't know about Third Impact : when being questioned by Sakura at the beginning(during his escort to the Command Bridge), he said that the last thing he remembers is "saving Ayanami", i.e. pulling her out of Zeruel's core. From here it's a complete black-out until the moment he wakes-up 14 years later in the medical coffin in the Wunder.

As for why they didn't told him anything about 3I... well they were doing a big infodump in the interrogation room(because really there is a lot of things for him to catch up), but they were interrupted by Mark.09's attack.
Beside we are not even sure at 100% that WILLE think of him as the direct responsible for 3I : remember that when they talk about what happened to him, they talk about Near Third Impact, like when Ritsuko told to Misato that Shinji's body data exactly correspond to the Thrid Boy from Near Third Impact), but when Asuka attacks Shinji, she asks him if he's trying to "cause Third Impact again".(though this phrase is ambiguous : did she means that if he's trying to destroy everything like he did with Third Impact(end of 2.0), or if he's trying to cause a catastrophic Impact like he almost did with Near Third Impact?(before a proper 3I fucked up everything anyway?))
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:34 pm

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:Which line if I may ask?


The phrase "honma" is Kansai dialect. Guess I was just imagining things about Sakura speaking a whole line; couldn't find anything when I skimmed the Japanese Github script.

View Original PostElMariachi wrote:Oh, and about Sakura's line in Japanese that SDD posted on the previous page :

Most of the online translators give me : "I want you to forgive Honma", or the "In truth, forgiveness want to."
But, Google translate give me : "Really, I want a break"!

So... which one is correct, because that line have some influence in Sakura's portrayal? :headscratch:


*SSD. :wink:

Online translators only give a vague idea of what the translation should be. Sakura is saying how she wants to be able to forgive Shinji (instead of wanting Shinji to forgive her, as one mistranslation showed), so that definitely should be taken into account with the translation.

View Original PostSailor Star Dust wrote:I think "I really want to forgive you" is the best way to render this.


Besides that, I guess we have to wait to see how Funimation officially translates it.

View Original PostKendrix wrote:That word for "forgive" is also occasionally used in context of "allow" or "let", like "I won't let this happen again!" or similar context, isn't it?


Once again, from our good friend Jisho:

許す ゆるす
1: to permit; to allow; to approve;
2: to exempt (from fine); to excuse (from); to pardon; to forgive; to release; to let off;
3: to confide in;
4: to give up; to yield
Common word, Godan verb with su ending, Transitive verb
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Postby riffraff11235 » Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:59 pm

So, it seems like the sticking point here is in the translation of "勘弁して" (kanbenshite). From Denshi Jisho I got that "勘弁" means "pardon; forgiveness; forbearance". Then by checking the "Sentences" link, I found that the phrase "勘弁してくれ" literally means "Give me a break". I agree that "I really want to forgive you!" makes more sense in context, but that doesn't seem to be what Sakura said. Could the phrase mean something different in Kansai-ben?
だから みんな 死んでしまえば いいのに... では, あなたは何故, ココにいるの? ...ココにいても, いいの?
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:20 pm

View Original Postriffraff11235 wrote:Could the phrase mean something different in Kansai-ben?


Well, the only word that's Kansai dialect is honma. The rest of the sentence is standard Japanese with a female term at the end (wa).

Here's how the line looks with more Kanji included, if that helps clarify anything:

本真、勘弁して欲しいわ
~Take care of yourself, I need you~


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