Shinji, Rei, Yui and Eva-01

[K40s]

Nerv and/or Seele launched the tesseract, no doubt. I'm talking more about the time after it was rescued from space. Much about this is mysterious, of course, but it's strongly implied Wille has had custody of Unit-01 since the prologue, and are responsible for retrieving Shinji. So much has happened since Unit-01 was initially launched -- Shinji is out, Wille has been screwing around with it and plugged the thing into a damn airship -- I don't see how Fuyutsuki can be that confident. Years may well have passed since Nerv evaluated the unit.

Correct me if I'm wrong but what does Fujutsuki tells about unit-01? that both Yui and Rei II are inside it? that could just mean that they (Nerv) didn't salvage neither and that they should still be there, maybe he knows that Yui has her reasons not to allow anyone salvage her and probably Rei II does too? so he can be sure that they are there (since nerv didn't removed them before shipping unit-01 to space) and will remain there despite wille attempts to salvage them...

[Warren Peace]

Correct me if I'm wrong but what does Fujutsuki tells about unit-01? that both Yui and Rei II are inside it?

That's basically it, if I'm remembering/understanding right. It seems to me that extracting Shinji puts all cards on the table. How does he know Rei didn't leak out in a puddle of LCL? How does he know Ritsuko hasn't been playing Frankenstein with the insides? Maybe I'm nitpicking, but I don't think so.

He's gotta have a spy, dammit! #Not Serious, #OkayKindaSerious

[Shinoyami65]

That's basically it, if I'm remembering/understanding right. It seems to me that extracting Shinji puts all cards on the table. How does he know Rei didn't leak out in a puddle of LCL? How does he know Ritsuko hasn't been playing Frankenstein with the insides? Maybe I'm nitpicking, but I don't think so.

He's gotta have a spy, dammit! #Not Serious, #OkayKindaSerious

Well, there are indications that there is a spy aboard the Wunder. Gendo knew Shinji had been salvaged, so he sent the Mark.09 to "rescue" him, and Seele seem to have been aware of the Wunder's existence and connection to the Mark.09, as they conveniently take control of the Mark.09 and try to get it to take over the Wunder when it enters the fray. I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out to be Ritsuko and she's been lying about not finding Rei and Yui inside the core.

[Darkwing]

It's the timing that makes me think there's a spy. Gendo moves just right to get Shinji after he's been extracted, but before things can settle down, and Shinji and the people he used to know can really start reconnecting. He gets Shinji while he's still hurt and confused, and thus most likely to come along.

Hmmn did they recheck that line of Sakura's? Maybe it really is "I want you to be able to forgive me" not "I want to be able to fogive you". If she's the spy because Gendo is holding something over her, maybe Toji, then that first one actually makes sense. If it has been confirmed that it's the second, disregard this.

[SEELE-01]

If she's the spy because Gendo is holding something over her, maybe Toji

They have him naked on a LCL tube and are using his clothes for Shinji...

So let's recap...
-Ritsuko may or may not be lying
-Rei and Yui are in Eva 01
-There appears to be a mole in Wille (some point at Ritsuko [who incidentally, does have a mole])

[Jornophelanthas]

I first posted this elsewhere, but I believe it may be better placed here.

One thing that Fuyutsuki mentions about Yui is that she is now Evangelion Unit-01's "control system", after the "direct contact" experiment accident. This suggests that it is the pilot's (i.e. Shinji's) synchronization with Yui that controls Unit-01's movements. We know that Yui is part of the Evangelion's core. Nothing new here; same as in NGE.

Now, during the 10th Angel ("Zeruel") battle in 2.0, a number of things happen with the composition of the core. In order:
- Shinji gets absorbed into the core through excessive plug depth;
- Unit-01 awakens and evolves (whatever that means, but it's a subject for another thread);
- Rei's soul is salvaged from the Angel's core and pulled directly into the Evangelion's core by Shinji;
- The Angel's core is absorbed by the Evangelíon's core;
- Kaworu's spear pierces Unit-01's core.
More stuff happens later:
- Various [b[unknown[/b] operations, which at least involve putting Unit-01 inside the tesseract that is launched into space;
- Unit-01 briefly activates to some extent in the heat of an Angel battle;
- More time passes, which includes rigging up Unit-01 as the Wunder's main engine;
- Shinji's body is reconstructed and extracted from the core along with his soul;
- Wunder is activated externally by WILLE;
- Shinji's synchronization test lists 0.000% compatibility.

Why am I listing all these issues? My main point is that it is the maternal bond between Yui and Shinji that allows Shinji to pilot Unit-01, and that Shinji's ability to pilot Unit-01 appears to have been eliminated (not lessened, but eliminated) by the time Ritsuko give Shinji his synchronization test results. Based on the above listing, there is only a handfull of possible explanations for this:

1. What is left of Yui has also been extracted from Unit-01, leaving nothing for Shinji to synchronize with.
This could entail Yui having been extracted at any time between the end of 2.0 and Shinji's reawakening, and it could have been done intentionally or accidentally by SEELE, NERV, WILLE, IPEA or any other party. In fact, Yui's soul could even have been absorbed by Kaworu's spear.
A slightly more disturbing - but highly unlikely scenario - is that Yui's connection to Shinji has been absorbed along with Shinji and is now a part of him. There are no clues, however, that Shinji is sharing a body with another consciousness, or that any part of his body or mind is not his own. He has no hallucinations, strange dreams or any changes in lucidity apart from what appears to be a stress-induced nervous breakdown. (In fact, the only time we may suspect this to be the case is when Shinji hears Rei's voice, right before Mark-09 breaks open the ship to collect him, demonstrating that Rei 3.0 has actually been calling out to him.)

2. What is left of Yui has been destroyed, leaving nothing for Shinji to synchronize with.
Yui could have been entirely eliminated from Unit-01's core through a number of means. There are several possible ways this could have happened: Kaworu's spear is a likely contender, but Angel contamination (or Rei contamination) could have corrupted and devoured Yui's essence, or any of the off-screen action that put Unit-01 in space, or inside Wunder could have done the trick.

3. Yui's essence has been diluted by Rei's presence to the point of being entirely dormant, blocking of Shinji's synchronization.
Shinji took Rei into the core with him, and no entry plug was involved in that insertion. (In fact, Rei only existed as a separate entity inside of the Angel's core.) It is likely that Rei's essence got absorbed into the core in such a way that it mixed with Yui's essence (Fuyutsuki even tells Shinji this). However, perhaps Rei could have dominant over Yui. And because Rei and Shinji do not share a maternal bond, Shinji's synchronization to Rei drops to 0.000%. Yui may still be in there, but Rei's presence would make her irrelevant to activating the Evangelion.
(Speculation and topic for another thread: if Rei 2.0 is now Unit-01's control system, perhaps Rei 3.0 will be able to synchronize with it.)

4. Yui no longer has a maternal connection to Shinji.
This could be either a conscious decision or a subconscious purge of her personality, but for whatever reason, Yui now rejects Shinji. It could be that Yui does not approve of Unit-01 achieving godhood and no longer trusts Shinji because of Third Impact. Perhaps she actually wished for Unit-01 to achieve godhood and now coldly rejects Shinji because she no longer needs him. Perhaps the dummy plug confused Yui, and she is no longer able to recognize Shinji. Perhaps all the tampering with the Evangelion's core damaged Yui's essence to the extent that her maternal instinct was eliminated. This is all speculation.

5. WILLE lied to Shinji.
The last possible scenario is that the synchronization test result was simply forged in order to convince Shinji that he should never ever go near Unit-01 again, and that he can't pilot it again if he or anyone else would want him to. Or the synchronization test result is true, but only because WILLE has tampered with the access to Unit-01's core (for example by using some kind of dummy plug variant). Whatever the case, in this scenario Shinji could pilot Unit-01 again if WILLE would let him.

Now, it is impossible to know if any of these scenarios will turn out to be true, but discussing their merits and possibly thinking of other scenarios could offer us some worthwhile grounds for speculating about the future role that is to be played by Yui in FINAL. (If she has a part to play at all...)

---
Finally, here are a few more pieces of deduction to take in:
1. No part of Shinji was left behind inside Unit-01's core. If there had been, there would have been some kind of synchronization between Shinji and whatever parts of him were not extracted.
2. That halo about Yui is indeed very curious, as it does not appear to be part of the mechanicall harness she is wearing. Perhaps Yui is an Angel (or an Adam) from the very start in this continuity (just like Kaworu)?

[Reichu]

Note that Shinji and Rei are in the entry plug at the end of 2.0 (this is specified in the script), and it's from the entry plug that Wille salvages both Shinji and the SDAT. I surmise that Rei was not retrieved because she was drawn into the core, which Wille did not tamper with.

The simplest explanation for the 0% synch that I've seen comes from Lili -- see here.

Another factual correction: In 2.0, Eva-00's core, with Rei inside, is extracted from the Angel. The Angel's body fluid reforms into a giant Rei around Eva-00's core, and the Rei merges into Eva-01.

[SEELE-01]

That OR, Rei is keeping Shinji from sychronizing with the Eva.... so that "he never has to pilot again..."

[Jornophelanthas]

Thanks for these responses, they shed some new light on Rebuild 3.0 that I had not seen yet.

If that is true, then I guess that the only pilot to successfully activate Unit-01 in the next installment will be Rei 3.0.

[ElMariachi]

If that is true, then I guess that the only pilot to successfully activate Unit-01 in the next installment will be Rei 3.0.

If that's the case, then what will Shinji pilot in Final?
Unless he can suddenly all the crazy shit Kaworu did in NGE and mentally remotely control any EVA, Unit-01 is currently the only Evangelion I could see him pilot.

[Na7e]

If that's the case, then what will Shinji pilot in Final?

Unit 8+2.

[Jornophelanthas]

If that's the case, then what will Shinji pilot in Final?
Unless he can suddenly all the crazy shit Kaworu did in NGE and mentally remotely control any EVA, Unit-01 is currently the only Evangelion I could see him pilot.

He piloted Unit-13 (and was not just in the passenger seat), and it has not been destroyed.

(I don't know whether Shinji's synchronization was made at all possible by Kaworu's presence, but I think it's unlikely because the Evangelion did not deactivate after Kaworu died. That only happened when Mari forcefully removed Shinji's entry plug.)

[Reichu]

Replying to the Eva-13 stuff here to prevent off-topic.

[Jornophelanthas]

I was struck by another question concerning Shinji's reappearance in 3.0. WILLE did not need him. WILLE did not want him. So why salvage him at all?

I see two possible answers.

1. WILLE needed Unit-01 without Shinji being a part of it.
This may be likely to the extent that they may fear that Unit-01 may awaken again if it has Shinji's soul inside. Just as it had done in the climax of the 10th Angel ("Zeruel") battle, and just as it had done in the space battle. In this sense, Shinji is literally a waste product of their super AT-Field flying machine. This would also assume that determining whether the "specimen" is indeed Shinji Ikari is merely a matter of determining whether they indeed got all of him out of there.

2. Shinji reappeared spontaneously during the installation of Unit-01 into Wunder.
There are two variants to this answer that I can think of.
a) Shinji's body spontaneously reformed when the entry plug was removed from the Evangelion's core, since that was the only thing keeping him in a non-corporeal state. (And why would WILLE remove the entry plug? For one possiblity, see 1.. For another possibility, perhaps they needed to insert a dummy plug.)
b) Unit-01 actively rejected Shinji after it first awakened again during the space battle. This would be explained by the "Rei will make it so that Ikari-kun will never need to pilot again"-argument, combined with the fact that she realized that Shinji was still piloting an Evangelion during the space battle, as far as she could tell from inside the core.

As you may probably tell from my formulations, I am currently favouring explanation 1. However, there may be more to say here.

-----

On an entirely different note (still about the topic of Shinji, Rei and Unit-01):
Could it be that the first two times that Shinji hears Rei calling out to him (right before the Mark-09 breaks open the ship's hull) is NOT Rei 3.0 piloting it? What if it is Rei 2.0 from inside Unit-01's core telepathically reaching out to him, because she has just now realized that Shinji is no longer with her?
Highly suggestive, but I'm putting this out there for discussion. I apologize if this has already been brought up elsewhere, but I am still catching up with this forum after 6 months' self-imposed exile from spoilers. (Although it feels like closer to 14 years...)

[Jomei]

On an entirely different note (still about the topic of Shinji, Rei and Unit-01):
Could it be that the first two times that Shinji hears Rei calling out to him (right before the Mark-09 breaks open the ship's hull) is NOT Rei 3.0 piloting it? What if it is Rei 2.0 from inside Unit-01's core telepathically reaching out to him, because she has just now realized that Shinji is no longer with her?
Highly suggestive, but I'm putting this out there for discussion. I apologize if this has already been brought up elsewhere, but I am still catching up with this forum after 6 months' self-imposed exile from spoilers. (Although it feels like closer to 14 years...)

This is the way I read that scene. Rei's voice when Shinji first hears her is tonally different from the one he hears after Mark 09 breaks open the hull (that time it sounds like it's coming through a speaker, whereas before it was perfectly clear, directly in Shinji's mind, and seemingly imperceptible to anyone else).

I also saw the appearance of the "quantum Rei" before Rei Q (hope I'm getting these terms right lol) as another manifestation of this. And Rei Q's reference to "another/the other me" seems to indicate there's some sort of communication going on there. Or maybe that she's connecting dots among the strange things she has seen involving "other her".

I saw in another thread that "quickening" can, in the Highlander sense, mean something like the acquisition of another person's experiences through some sort of ritual. Could Rei Q, in coming into contact with Unit 01, re-acquire Rei 2's memories? I may be projecting wishful thinking into this, but with how little we understand right now, this seems plausible to me still.

[Charsi]

Jomei: love the theory. Makes a lot of sense. You'd think if Misato or Ritsuko heard the voice calling they'd say "that's not Rei, Shinji". But they don't. They're in the same room as him when she calls out. Neither react in the slightest. They can't hear her. Neither can Sakura when Rei calls out again a few seconds later.

It's not a loudspeaker UNTIL the hand comes through the wall. And it sounds different to the first two calls. Only then does Misato say "that's not Rei".

If that's the case, then what will Shinji pilot in Final?

Nothing.

Nobody pilots anything anymore. They were all just doing it for self-serving reasons anyway. But I doubt i'm right in that prediction.

I'm sure NERV will try and co-erce him into Unit 13 (the implication seems to be Kaworu is still in there, because of the way he fades into the distance when Shinji is force-ejected).

[Jornophelanthas]

Jomei: love the theory. Makes a lot of sense. You'd think if Misato or Ritsuko heard the voice calling they'd say "that's not Rei, Shinji". But they don't. They're in the same room as him when she calls out. Neither react in the slightest. They can't hear her. Neither can Sakura when Rei calls out again a few seconds later.

It's not a loudspeaker UNTIL the hand comes through the wall. And it sounds different to the first two calls. Only then does Misato say "that's not Rei".

Nitpick:
Misato and Ritsuko are not in the same room as Shinji. Shinji is in a quarantine room with Sakura, while Misato, Ritsuko and Asuka speak with him through a glass wall (which Ritsuko turns opaque and sound-proof once Mark-09's approach is detected). Mark-09's hand not only breaks open the hull, but also demolishes the glass wall.

However, since Sakura does not react to the first two calls either, it is still likely they are not actual sound.

----
That scene is peculiar in more than one way, only a few of which are even relevant to this thread.

Mark-09 breaks open the hull mere moments after Shinji literally calls out to Ayanami. This highly suggests that Rei 3.0 pinpointed his specific location based on that outcry from withon a sound-proof room.

Could it be that Shinji is empathically/telepathically attuned to Rei Ayanami (any Rei Ayanami) through being merged with one for fourteen years?

Some circumstantial evidence to this can be found in Rei 3.0's reactions to him at NERV HQ:
- She appears quite willing to accept orders from him;
- She becomes aware of "another her" existing, and even seems to sense the truth of this;
- She becomes more human even after Shinji stops treating her as a person;
- While aimlessly wandering around in the final scene, she still ended up at Shinji's entry plug.

Also, could it be that if Shinji had not been removed from Wunder, Rei 2.0 would have reacted more strongly to his presence (possibly through awakening Unit-01 into a berserker state)? This would be a meta-argument to remove him from there as early as possible.

[Kendrix]

Shinji may simply have ended up with a strong connection to that entire Lillith-clone-entity thing through getting touchy-feely with one of the individual elements.

Kinda like the empty clones in NGE seem to have some minimal recognition of him.

One of the many things that makes the situation so complicated, because the entire entity thing is way more than Shinji can handle/bargained for when he simply

At the same time, there's this individual with the explicit fear that she "will dissapear from the minds of others if another exists", and she's the one he knows, has actually interacted with, and owes loyalty to (for saving his life, among other things) and it is a simple fact that Shinji's just about the only person who'd properly mourn her in any way (Gendo probably either doesn't consider her dead or came to terms with having to send her to her doom a long time ago, since that's what he first created her for)

so it's all sorts of complicated, one of these sci-fi specific scenarios that transcend our normal ideas of a defined person, and Shinji has neither time to think it over nor adults to discuss it with.

At the same time, it could be surprisingly simple, ie, just as Shinji, who actually interacted with Rei II on a daily basis, percieves it.
(Note that ReiQ didn't begin to show sighns of humanity untill after he declares her a lost cause - That's the irony. He also doesn't know Misato spared him, or Fuyu's line concerning Gendo and possible concern. On the other hand, it's the very fact that he made a distinction there/suggested the very possibility that she may be something other than what her programming/conditioning dictates that got her thinking.
And really, she seemed willing to follow orders from just ANYONE without distinction (in contrast to Rei II who had a genuine conviction/ trust in Gendo, enough to call people out on badmouthing him, through wether he earned that as he should have is, of course, another question), with all the horrifying implications of that. She has no real connection to what she's created from, got no imput from anyone around her (before meeting and having brief but enlightening conversations with Shinji, Mari and Asuka), and didn't seem to have any independent thought (She didn't touch the books because she wasn't given an order - She just sits in her room waiting all the time, catching dust) so there was nothing to her but the most basic programming.)

---

Either way, from the way it's presented, it loooks like this 000% synch rate is a mayor plot point/ mystery that will get an explicit reveal in final.

There's also the possibility that Rei was simply harder to retrieve because, due to her lillithian origin, EVA 01 is a more "natural" vessel for her soul than her humanoid body.
Then again, we can pretty much deduce that no "clean", careful extraction à episode 20 took place, they weren't even sure if what they got out was even Shinji, and they refer to it as having "found" him on a "sweep" of EVA 01 - For all we know, he simply happened to materialize when they flushed out the LCL in the plug, possibly with a toe half stuck in the drain.
It might have been possible to get Rei out with the facilities available in ep 20 at their disposal.

---

On the theory of the first "Ikari-kun" having been Rei IIs -
Hm. Didn't think of it before reading it here.
I do like the idea of ReiII being generally present in a non-corporeal form, kinda like Aerith throughout "advent children", but to me, it seems like reading too much into it/Not sufficient evidence to conclude that it's not just ReiQ over the intercom/muffled by the valls in between.

[pwhodges]

We only know he couldn't sync after being removed.

We only know that Ritsuko said that. She could have been lying; or her measurement technique could have become irrelevant with the transformed Unit-01. But the figure of precisely 0.00% is just too suspicious for me - and, oh look! he can still pilot Unit-13 anyway!

[riffraff11235]

We only know that Ritsuko said that. She could have been lying; or her measurement technique could have become irrelevant with the transformed Unit-01. But the figure of precisely 0.00% is just too suspicious for me - and, oh look! he can still pilot Unit-13 anyway!

I think the point being made there was that he couldn't sync with Eva-01 specifically, not that he could never pilot an Eva again.