Geofront/Moon Stuff

[Jornophelanthas]

The Black Moon partially emerging during Third Impact and totally emerging during Fourth Impact could had been it trying to call back the Moon and inserting itself back into it : the Black Moon would then be a giant entry plug and the Moon its vessel.

While I don't necessarily subscribe to the "moon = spaceship" theory, I do find this last comment about the black moon being inserted in the white moon compelling. Mainly because it would be a strong Freudian analogy.

Just look at it this way:
The white moon is huge, fertile and stationary. Female, like an ovum.
The black moon is smaller, carrying the seed of life and mobile. Male, like a sperm.

The black moon merging with the white moon could very likely be the symbolic cosmic "conception" of the new "higher" form of life that NERV would have been after.

Further clues:
- The pockmarked surface of the Black Moon would indicate that someone somehow prevented the Black Moon from rising during Third Impact. It might have been WILLE.
- Fuyutsuki calling the Black Moon's crash a giant mess and saying that it was exactly as SEELE had intended, would indicate that the (further) rise of the Black Moon was not intended by SEELE.
- Fuyutsuki's regret, and Gendo's subsequent comment marking the event as an acceptable loss (since he had gotten several short-term gains out of it) illustrates that NERV does want the further rise of the Black Moon.
- Symbolically, NERV symbolizes the Freudian male or father figure. NERV were in control of the Black Moon, giving it a male connotation. (Also, note that in Rebuild 2.0, Gendo and Fuyutsuki were not allowed to actually reach the moon in their spaceship.)

Speculation:
- Perhaps whatever that Key of Nebuchadnezzar unlocks is on (or inside) the (White) Moon. SEELE appears to have taken strict precautions to keep Gendo away from there from as early as Rebuild 2.0. And this as good a place as any to repeat that I believe that Gendo was a prisoner at Neo-NERV base, with Kaworu his jailer.

[ElMariachi]

^
Well, the "Moon = spaceship" is canon, in NGE at least.
As for the Black and White Moon, I think you're mixing up what I was trying to say : in the NGE background about the Moons and Seeds of Life(more precisely the "Confidential Information" from the NGE2 game) ADAM and Lilith were traveling ins space in a vessel codenamed White Moon for ADAM and Black Moon for Lilith.
And said vessel was itself inside a bigger container, simply called a Moon.
And for the Black Moon, its corresponding Moon is Earth's Moon, the one hanging above our head.

When I was talking about the Black Moon rising up in Q to try to merging with the Moon, what I meant is that it tried to get back inside its massive container, like an entry plug inserting itself inside an Evangelion.
And that the grid pattern we see on the Moon(the one in the sky) was the "container" of the Black Moon responding to the latter's activation by going into "auto-pilot" and getting closer to the planet, then staying on stand-by, using some anti-grav technology to avoid being damaged by Earth's gravitational pull, or damaging the planet(and the Black Moon) with its own gravitational force.

Also, Fuyutsuki said that "nearly everything went as SEELE wished", implying that even without the Spear of Cassius, their Instrumentality would be completed as long as they have a Spear of Longinus, an Awakened Evangelion and an Impact, which is what there was in 3.0 with Fourth Impact, until Kaworu sacrifices himself and Shinji si ejected from EVA-13, aborting Fourth Impact.

Personally, I think that the rising of the Black Moon was just a consequence of triggering an Impact, but ultimately without consequences, like an automatic program inside the Black Moon programing starting when an Impact begins.
Although it's also possible that the Black Moon was part of SEELE's ritual for Instrumentality, maybe to store all of the planet's souls(like in EoE) before "treating" them" to transform them into whatever Instrumentality would do.(beings with at least the Fruit of Life according to Kaworu)
Maybe Gendo have an use for it in his own plans for Instrumentality, but we'll have to wait for FINAL to know that.

[freds]

Just to add to the confusion...



On the top it is the scaled model of the real distance between the Earth and the Moon. Even at this great distance the Moon is tidally locked (meaning only one side is facing the Earth while it revolves around it) due to Earth's gravity.

On the bottom is the approximate distance in Q, as calculated by me. At this distance the Moon would be expected to be torn apart by the gravitational forces. We also wouldn't expect it to be rotating horizontally to Earth's plane. Moon's pull would cause catastrophic sea tides and the deformation of the atmosphere on the side of the Earth facing it and on the opposite side, which would dramatically increase the atmospheric pressures at these areas.
[/timg]

I had to create an account in these forums to explain my epiphany:

You're considering the mass of the moon remains the same, right? But what if, just as it happens in EoE, the moon "bleeds" out its contents, when being activated (when the grid shows up)? It would make it ultimately hollow — which would also work as empty space for the Black Moon to fill in, like some were discussing lately.

So a hollow moon can be close to the earth without affecting its integrity. Of course SOMETHING is holding that moon in space without colliding to earth, but also something made the black moon rise to the skies, maybe they're pulling each other?

[ElMariachi]

The problem is that the Moon has a diameter of 3 474 km(thanks Wikipedia!), bigger than even Japan from one point to another, the Black Moon with its 3-4 kilometers of diameter is just a spec inside it, so hollowing the Moon to put the Black Moon inside would completely defeat the purpose of the Moon being a protective shell, since the Black Moon would freely bounce inside.

[pwhodges]

Unless it is suspended at the centre on very long bungee ropes...

[Jornophelanthas]

Or unless the Black Moon penetrates its membrane and melds with the (White) Moon's core, thus creating a new higher cosmic lifeform.

(Although probably an Awakened Evangelion and the Key of Nebuchadnezzar should probably be involved too.)

[ElMariachi]

Well if that's Gendo's plan, then it's an hijack of the Moon's original purpose as protective hull for the Black Moon.
Although the Black Moon was involved in EoE's Instrumentality, so everything is possible.

[Craftee]

Im trying to make a diagram of geofront, flying upside down pyramid and the black moon for this thread.
Thanks to anyone who helps!

but i need a few questions answered first.

Where in the world is this?

SPOILER: Show

At first i thought it would be on the side of the floating upside down pyramid, but i dont see any red steps or construction cranes.

SPOILER: Show

[ElMariachi]

That's because of the scale, it doesn't seems like that in this shot, but the inverted pyramid is gigantic : take in account that it houses a base big enough to build and store many Evangelions, as well as a factory chain-building Eva weapons, armors and transport trains!

The stairs and walkway Shinji and Kaworu takes to see the outside world are in your second shot, but they are so tiny compared to the size of the structure that you can't see them.

[Craftee]

Thanks for the reply,
You would think that construction cranes would show, but i guess not.

[ElMariachi]

Or now that I think about it, it could simply be that they are on another side of the pyramid!

[Craftee]

Well actually the Geofront would look like that:



But I don't think it's the same in NME. It's probably the giant screw thingie. Considering it's supposed to be a spaceship of some sort, it's not really surprising.

Im guessing this image represents NG GeoFront,
But does anyone know the size/dimensions of Rebuild GeoFront?
Or are they the same?

this is from 2.22
is this translation accurate?
because if it is 15,000 meters, then geofront would be gone according to NG GeoFront dimensions.

SPOILER: Show

[ElMariachi]

Seeing the images in Rebuild, the Geofront is of the same size in both version.
Remember that the Geofront is only the underground cavity where NERV HQ was build, the big round structure seen in the bottom left schematics is the Black Moon, which is a sphere in NGE, contrary to the Rebuild version being a giant screw/chalice-shaped structure.

SPOILER: Show

[wkimg]File:M26 C316A moon-souls.jpg[/wkimg]

Also, take in account that Tokyo-3 is a small city by Japanese standards, only being 4-5 km long(which is logical for a fortress-city : you'll want to keep the size compact).

Also, I don't thing that the Rebuild Black Moon is different in diameter : when we see it emerging during Fourth Impact in 3.0, wee see it destroying the ruins of Tokyo-3, but nothing else around.

[Nuclear Lunchbox]

Except, when we're watching the Evas descend in NGEverse, there's some structures that look like the screw marks on the NTE grail...

[Craftee]

Well according to my calculations, the black moon cant possibly be 13km wide. 13km is puny.
im also formulating that the geofront is separate from the black moon.

[url]http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/16017/Black-Moon-Scale-Size/[/url]

even on the wiki it states that the geofront was an empty cavity.

The GeoFront was originally a massive sphere, 13.75 km in diameter, though over time it filled with earth and debris from landslides; by the present day, only a small fraction at the top has not been buried, which forms a dome-shaped cavern underground. When Nerv HQ was being built, some further excavation was performed to add in access tunnels, monorails and car trains leading to the surface, etc.

[url]http://wiki.evageeks.org/GeoFront[/url]


this is what i believe it looks like
going by my moon calculations and images from the geofront wiki

SPOILER: Show

[ElMariachi]

About the BM size, I answered in the topic you created about the BM scale.

As for your second point, I think that the article is very outdated : the massive sphere is the Black Moon, while the Geofront is only the small cavity at the top of it, if you dig some more, you reach the surface of the Black Moon.

Which makes me realize : NERV HQ was build inside the Black Moon, so that mean that Shinji and co were working in a space station all along!

[Craftee]

[s]still doesnt make sense, so lilith isnt resting inside BM?

because in 2.22 they say that the blast will go 15,000m underground. and that central dogma will be "exposed" not destroyed.[/s]

not sure if this was brought up already, but it seems like black moon was always ribbed in design.
i wonder what this could mean.

SPOILER: Show

[Ray]

SPOILER: Show

A properly scientific Diagram of the Geofront, before and after the events of the Rebuild movies.

[Nuclear Lunchbox]

Interesting-- that diagram suggests that Nerv HQ wasn't raised, but that the surrounding landscape was lowered. I hadn't considered that. Also what's the text next to that little black thing on the bottom?

[Reichu]

Interesting-- that diagram suggests that Nerv HQ wasn't raised, but that the surrounding landscape was lowered. I hadn't considered that. Also what's the text next to that little black thing on the bottom?

The text says "something pulled out by Fourth Impact" (or close to that).

The diagram is incredibly obsolete, by the way. Just to start with:

(1) It assumes there is a spherical Black Moon, when in actuality the big black goblet that's pulled out by 4I is ENT's Black Moon.
(2) It has Central and Terminal Dogma mixed up. (Accurate for NGE, but not ENT.)
(3) The familiar HQ pyramid is NOT the "sky altar" ("New Nerv HQ"). The 10th Angel destroyed it in 2.0, and its ruins are seen in 3.0, apparently contained by the structure atop the pole.
(4) Terminal Dogma is contained by the Black Moon, not above it.