Double dose of Kaworu?

[Mana]

So I found this neat little thing on Tumblr: http://norio-kun.tumblr.com/post/37224119802

I think the theory is interesting to say the least and I'm really hoping that this is what Anno is going for. Your thoughts about it?

[Reichu]

There have always been unexplained (in-universe) design changes between films, and now there's a 14-year time-skip on top of that.

[Kendrix]

A bit too roundabout to be true.

How about he combed his hair a bit differently? Cut it a few times in those 14 years and thus is no longer looks exactly the same?

Maybe Gendo just told Kaworu to stop calling him that, considering that SEELE shot his actual son into the stratosphere and he probably didn't wanna be reminded.

If you were to ask him, he'd probably tell you that his son died by his hands or something like that, he planned to conclude his plans soon, so something must've gotten in the way and he must've somehow come to terms with never seeing Shinji again or at least not in any human-interaction-y way.

Note how he practially FLEES the room after giving very minimal exposition to Shinji. He's probably thinking "Don't look, don't get attached, you'll have to send him away quite soon and you mustn't hesitate..." something like that.

I really wonder if any interaction transpired there. Kaworu seems to disagree with Gendo and his plans, but he's staying there, apparently tolerated and hey, someone must've gotten him that piano. I really hope 3.33 will give us at least some minimal scene of them talking.

Also, while Kaworu does realize something about Gendo's plans there (as does Mari), as I got it, most of the unfortunate events that transpired were arranged by SEELE, Gendo and Fuyutsuki even complain about how SEELE's impact version nearly went off...

I'm not sure if we find out what exactly Mari and Kaworu noticed there, i guess we'll see in final.

[ScottAsher]

It's possible the new Kaworu is a clone, similar to Rei Q, but with one of the Adams souls inside it. My current theory on what will happen in final is that Kaworu will come out of another, unopened, coffin, and descend down to the earth again, and this time actually undo the impacts, only instead of reviving everyone, it just brings the earth back to fruition.

EDIT: Also, while Kaworu can comb his hair differently, the eyes being different kinda tips me off to something, to be honest. From what I've seen, eyes are definitive to the character in most anime, so changing the eyes from one movie to another kinda makes me wonder. (Though, if Eva had sameface syndrome, I'd ignore the eyes.)

SPOILER: Show

Part of me doesn't hope this though because a story I'm writing has a similar end, to the sense that someone renews a world that underwent the apocalypse by kind of reviving himself. If Anno does this I'm seriously going to be pissed, but happy because that means Eva will finally have a happy end.

[Kendrix]

^Still sounds too much like Reset Button for Anno to actually do it right after Q basically told us "No sorry, there is no reset button. The rest button is a lie, Shinji. And so is the cake."

[ScottAsher]

^Still sounds too much like Reset Button for Anno to actually do it right after Q basically told us "No sorry, there is no reset button. The rest button is a lie, Shinji. And so is the cake."

I thought it was implied the reset button is there, though? Shinji just didn't do it right.

[Kendrix]

I thought it was implied the reset button is there, though? Shinji just didn't do it right.

Same untrustworthy source of information. I'd better not trust one more word out of Keel's mouth.

[Reichu]

I thought it was implied the reset button is there, though? Shinji just didn't do it right.

I'll just link back to this thread. (May end up merging at this rate.)

[Kendrix]

I'll just link back to this thread. (May end up merging at this rate.)

What I never quite get there is wether Fuyu is trying to warn Shinji away from Gendo or to woo him for their cause.

[kuwisdelu]

I thought it was implied the reset button is there, though? Shinji just didn't do it right.

Possibly, but even if they had the right spears, it wouldn't make any thematic sense after Q, and Anno is a better storyteller than that.

[Ramiel²]

While the reason for this theory seems a bit shady, i remember that in the beginning NME was planned to be a 3-Movie recap with the 4th Movie as an alternative Ending.

Maybe thats what they meant with alternative ending, 3 Movies to show one 'Loop' an the 4th to pose a different outcome. Not in contrary to NGE but in Contrary to NME itself.

[Charsi]

That final little bit is the most intriguing/interesting to me. In fact, it's freaking brilliant imo.

Here's the relevant pic:



What if.... Q is actually a prequel in which most of the events of 1.0 and 2.0 occurred almost entirely as depicted, except nobody threw a spear in time to stop 3I. Then the events of Q happen, Kaworu fails to make Shinji happy, but in his final moments Kaworu says "don't make that face, we'll meet again."

And.. they do. Because 1.0 and 2.0 get replayed, and this time Kaworu shows up and throws that spear a little sooner... and says "this time i'll definitely make you happy".

It's like the "sequel" theory, except suggesting that the movie is a sequel to itself. (It reminds me of a certain magical girl anime...) It also provides a possible explanation as to why the 3I effect is so much more extensive than 2.0 implies, nothing we saw in the post 2.0 preview appears in the movie, etc, etc. If the reset device is instrumentality then it explains EoE as well as just another way things could have played out.

Problem: there's no indication how such a reset might be achieved; it would have to be fairly early in Final; Kaworu is dead, Gendo and Fuyusuki talk in riddles, and Seele got switched off. So how is Shinji going to find out how to press the reset button?

Reset buttons are a bit... cliche to put it mildly. Oh well. Oddly enough, it seems to fit as well as any fanwank theory might.

[JoeD80]

Except then the characters would have to age backwards?

Why do there have to be weird time-loops to have multiple Kaworus?

[Kendrix]

As soon as Rebuild could no longer be mistaken for a fix-fic, come the Rebuild!fix fics.


...It's just ste drawing style. Compare the way, say, Mari's eyes are drawn in the roof scene to that trailer schreenshot where she grins at the camera in battle.

[Güf Trüp]

I crawled out of my lurking tunnels to start a topic similar to this, namely on why Kaworu's characterization seemed to change so drastically between 2.0 and 3.0.
In the first two movies, Kaworu's brief appearance's are very clearly made to make you think "This guy's evil": from waking up on the moon in a coffin, to being buds with SEELE, to having the super eva mark.06, we were clearly not supposed to trust this guy. Then at the end of 2.0, he appears from the moon in mark.06, stops 3rd impact, and then talks about how he's going to make Shinji happy this time while staring evilly at the screen. The 3.0 preview at the end even shows mark.06 going into Terminal Dogma, presumably to start 4th impact.
When 3.0 finally came, not only did his hair change, but his characterization did too. He was still a mysterious effeminate albino with an obsession with Shinji, but he now seemed to be presented to us as a guy who was unambiguously good and was simply being manipulated, not once does his true allegiance get called into question, and he doesn't force Shinji to kill him, instead blowing himself up to save mankind.
While I can't say I don't like Kaworu in 3.0 (quite the opposite), I'm confused why his character seemed to change so drastically between films. In the original series, he was ambiguous from start to finish, in the first two Rebuilds, they seemed to be setting him up to be like EMK, and now in 3.0, he's become a nice guy who was simply a patsy to the true players of the game, without ever calling this into question.
wazzup wit dat?

[Reichu]

Güf Trüp: There are so many things left unexplained between 2.0 and 3.0. Kaworu's just the tip of the iceberg. The 14-year time-skip is the "most obvious" reason for all these unexplained changes, so the question becomes... what happened to Kaworu during those 14 years?

[Güf Trüp]

I was wondering that too. There's no way that Wille didn't know about Kaworu, right? Considering what he did at the end of 2.0, shouldn't one of their top priorities have been to figure out what his deal was?

[Kendrix]

I didn't see anything really ominous about his presentation in the few first films that goes beyond "Look! Mystery pretty boy! Now go speculate. "

From what we gater from Ishida's interview, all stuff involving Kaworu is actually one of the few holdovers from the original plans. At least, he was told about plans in advance. So he'd know what the deal is when Kaworu's supposed to know.

That the whole middle segment of Q looks and sounds an awful lot like 1.0 while the first and last third are so ballistically different supports that, I'd say.

It is notable that by Q, he already has his mind made up to side with humanity (while the original series had him conflicted until shortly before the end) but he had a lot of time to think about it and witnessed firsthand what an impact event would do to humanity.
It would be like him to think "What a waste of life!", he sort of liked this civilisation.
He's older, too, it's just harder to tell with him since he was already something timless and wise to begin with.

what happened to Kaworu during those 14 years?

Hm, that's a good question. It feels extreme, even for him, to think that he just waited for Shinji.
Why is he with NERV? Most likely because SEELE assigned him (Gendo & Fuyu call him "Seele's boy".) , fully intending to use him as a spanner in Gendo's works, he can't refuse a pilot in this situation.

It's really a waste that we didn't really get to see him interact with Gendo.
They both like philosophy talk, but with Kaworu really linking the world and Gendo thinking it's really hopeless, it would make an interesting contrast.
As it looks, SEELE; Kaworu and Gendo all don't agree witch each other's plans but are forced to work together, trying to exploit each other's efforts for their own goals in the most tangled, perverse manner.

Kaworu seems to be using more distanced appelation, but that may be related to the fact that he was just thinking to himself about him in one situation and directly talking to him in the other.
While he disagrees, he seems to find Gendo's plan quite smart ("As expected...")

I suppose SEELE sent him there, Gendo needed a pilot and thus kept him around and after all, all he asked for was some piano to occupy him with.
Since that thing doesn't look overgrown or like something that would've been standing there since before the catastrophe, he either salvaged from the wreckage or specifically requested it.

[Güf Trüp]

I suppose having 14 years to mull things over is a reasonable (if vague, like everything involving the timeskip) explanation to any changes in cast. What ever, I'm satisfied enough.
Going off the piano thing, I can see Kaworu spending all 14 years learning one song by heart specifically so he could have a romantic bonding duet with Shinji when he finally came back. He's the kind of guy who'd do that.

[pwhodges]

and hey, someone must've gotten him that piano.

I reckon he just magicked it. There's no other explanation for its appearance in the ruins in the manga version, so why be more prosaic here?