Asuka's role in 3.0 & Beyond

[slothen]

Read up the last [s]10[/s] 20 pages or so. I'll keep it brief.

I disagree with Kendrix's notion that Asuka absolutely hates/loathes Shinji. Kicking someone when they're down (literally and metaphorically) was the example, and to me that's something people do all the time to those they care about, typically in the form of "I told you so." Sometimes the established relationship makes someone more willing to kick someone when they're down. If Shinji's screwup has doomed them all, his realization of guilt doesn't remove Asuka's need to have her own physical and verbal catharsis. Her actions in no way indicate outright cruelty and disregard, even if she is 'piling on.' That said Kendrix, I will go watch this part again.

Like everyone else, her feelings on him are complicated, with healthy (unhealthy?) doses of both love and hate. In fact there is duality in a number of spectra of their relationship. Attraction/revulsion and nurture/neglect come to mind.

For me, at least, the talk about the specifics of the Bardiel incident, weather he could have done better than the dummy plug, the fighting in 3.0 prior to 4I, are a waste. My interpretation of Asuka's "you didn't save me" line is pretty well summed-up by Jesterhead:

I still think she's hurt from his lack of action in 2.0 while she was in Unit-03. He froze and couldn't/wouldn't do anything to help her. But when Rei was in a similar(ish) situation he was willing to sacrifice EVERYTHING in the world to save her.

I think the 14 years has only made her more bitter about the lack of any attempt of a rescue for her. And to make matters worse, he doesn't stop talking about Rei from the moment he wakes up.

She doesn't just see Near Third Impact as stupid reckless thing to do by Shinji, she takes it as a personal insult.

Basically, he had the opportunity (and apparently the ability and willpower) to end the world to save her, and he chose not to. Weather he actually had an opportunity or not is irrelevant, because she thinks he did. She was unconscious and in a hellish dream-state so there was plenty of time (14 years) to misremember and fantasize about the way events went down. Not to be cliche, but not all wounds heal with time, some merely fester. As an adolescent girl yearning to grow up quickly, I have always figured Asuka to be one drawn to the trappings of high romance, secretly longing for grand romantic gestures and explicit declarations of love. These would serve as validation of her adulthood, and in the case of Shinji, prove of her own desirability and power, because such a declaration would go against his nature. Her notion of defined gender roles conflicts with her own assertive personality, leading her to attempt to provoke Shinji sexually with the intent that he would then be the man she wants him to be (ie, not a catatonic whiny apologetic bitch) (walls of Jericho, breast expansion, kiss scene, 'you can help me. you won't even hold me'). I would say that destroying the world to save someone is about extreme as you can get when it comes to declarations of love, so now go read the first sentence of this paragraph again. I think its pretty safe to say that if he hadn't saved Rei in 2.0, Asuka wouldn't be saying this line in 3.0.

Anyway, I've committed the cardinal sin of merging Soryu with Shikinami, but I maintain that they're two characters with the same spirit, even if different things happen to them and they make different decisions.

I don't mean to say that she's holding onto some silly 14-year-old crush, but it is equally silly to expect her feelings to be unconflicted or to stawman those that point the conflict out as deluded shippers. For one, I don't think that Shinji proclaiming his love for her (if he has any) would make her melt like butter.

Ask and you shall receive.

lol  SPOILER: Show

This is the best thing ever.

[Darkwing]

If they saw it in the original, they're going to be sailing that ship forever.

It's Shipping. Rational thought is not exactly the main part of it. I've been a Shinji/Rei Shipper since the original even though I know it will always be doomed, and I know all the aurguments against it. Emotionally, I just can't let go of it. And then their are other ships in other fandoms that get really nuts. And god help you if you have a ship that managed to be cannon, but someone else who likes a different ship takes over the property...

[Na7e]

At the point it was being made, that scene was stated to be about "salvation", that's what they intended when they made it, they did not seem to think that this level of catastrophe must necessarily follow because they did quite obviously not plan for the timeskip, it must've spontaneously overcome Anno, can't wait for his explanation.

It's only salvation in Yoji's Enokido CONCEPT of the scene. So yeah you're wrong.

[Bagheera]

No. This is NOT what happened.

Oh, it surely is. She didn't care about living because she knew she could be replaced, and she was right. Reichu explains it all very succinctly in the pic Na7e kindly provided above (and with pictures no less).

There's no use in you guys deliberately ignoring explicit statements by Shinji's voice actress that he's "a bit stronger in rebuild" [related to how stuff with Kaworu played out differently] and how "initially, the positive developement was still continuing, but then..." etc.

That might be relevant if we were comparing him to his NGE incarnation, but we're not.

Bad stuff does not always just happen to bad people. Bad stuff happening does not mean the person deserved it. That's not how the world works.

And that's the problem -- you're equating any critique of Shinji or his actions as some sort of condemnation, like we think he deserves what's happening to him, when that's not the case. Saying his act isn't noble since he did it for selfish reasons does not imply that he deserved what came after. These are separate, largely unrelated concepts that should not be intertwined.

Slothen: I think your analysis of Soryu is spot on (not just saying that, as I think very few people actually get her), but I think it's a mistake to say she and Shikinami share the same spirit. As far as I can tell Shikinami was never as broken as Soryu was, and I'm not convinced her feelings on romance et al were even remotely similar. The same is true when considering Soryu's thirst for adulthood. Did Shikinami ever express similar feelings? She cares nothing for Kaji, doesn't care about dating, gives up on Shinji at the slightest provocation . . . no, I don't think there's much similarity there at all.

When it comes to fighting spirit, yes, there's some similarity, particularly in Q. But past that? I'm just not seeing it. At this point they're about as different as AU incarnations can be IMO.

[bladerj]

Asuka's fault there, for calling him back to the "physical world".

Don't forget they had the collar ready though. They probably thought there was a chance to retrieve him.

Maybe becouse Asuka has one too ? both the new plug suit and the jacket she wears have turtle neck.

[A.T. Fish]

Has anyone actually been advancing it as such? I haven't seen any shipping options seriously considered at this point.

I've seen people expressing their hope that 4.0 will bring Shinji and Asuka together in this very thread.

I don't think you can really call it that since she's clearly angry at him. I know it's fashionable to think only in terms of love and hate but the human emotional spectrum does cover a bit more ground than that

Didn't I say she was at the very least indifferent? There's a whole subspectrum of emotions that you can fit between hate and indifference, which is why I left my statement open ended, and she does act somewhat indifferent to him at times.

If my position suggested fondness on her part I sincerely apologize.

You did say the final scene proved she didn't hate him because she eventually took him under her care, so yeah, that was misleading.

I'm denying his growth because his actions were motivated by selfishness and petulance, not a genuine desire to save another human being. We kept hearing "give back Rei!" and so on, and when she didn't indicate much interest in coming back he completely ignored her.

So he wasn't selfless and heroic, I never said he was and his growth doesn't have to lead to that, his growth came when he decided to go and do something for his own good, something that would make him happy (or less sad), he actively sought that result and that's a positive thing. Going on despite Rei's refusal was in no way a bad thing (apart from the whole apocalypse thing) the same way that it isn't a bad thing to help people in need even when they refuse to be helped. Do you really think it would be best if he got that close and then gave up because Rei didn't want to be saved? "Oh, so you want to stay there Rei? Ok, my bad, sorry for trying to save you, see ya in another life." Does that seem like a good thing?

I surely can deny it. Rash action that harms others is not better than inaction that harms no one (and it's on par with inaction that harms others).

He didn't really know he would harm others by doing that, did he? He was just trying to get the girl, he couldn't imagine the end of the world would follow.

[Bagheera]

You did say the final scene proved she didn't hate him because she eventually took him under her care, so yeah, that was misleading.

She doesn't hate him so she must love him? That sounds more like a leap on your part than anything inherent in what I said.

So he wasn't selfless and heroic, I never said he was and his growth doesn't have to lead to that, his growth came when he decided to go and do something for his own good, something that would make him happy (or less sad), he actively sought that result and that's a positive thing.

I think the motivation is what determines whether or not that's the case. Getting motivated for purely selfish reasons isn't exactly emblematic of positive character growth.

Does that seem like a good thing?

It's the fact that he didn't even consider her feelings on the matter that's problematic. If he'd at least asked her why she felt that way I'd be more forgiving, as she might have given him some insight on why his current course was not such a hot idea. But he never even bothered to ask, so . . .

And y'know, you really should ask someone if they want your help before forcing it down their throat. Heck, in the U.S. you can't legally help them until they consent. consent is of course implied if they can't respond, but if they can respond you damn well better ask their opinion on the matter before you do anything.

He didn't really know he would harm others by doing that, did he?

He rather explicitly didn't care. And in any event, see the above discussion re: Japanese takes on responsibility and such. The mere fact that he didn't intend to blow up the world doesn't change the fact that he did it.

[CJD]

And y'know, you really should ask someone if they want your help before forcing it down their throat. Heck, in the U.S. you can't legally help them until they consent. consent is of course implied if they can't respond, but if they can respond you damn well better ask their opinion on the matter before you do anything.

Tell that to all the people who are involuntarily committed for suicidal ideation every year. I'm sure they love how, even though they could respond, and even though they didn't want help, it was still forced down their throats by people on high.

And before you say it's different: It's really not, because Rei's apparent refusal to be rescued is suicide. Expecting Shinji to stop and ask why she feels like offing herself, when he has no bloody clue how much time he has, is unrealistic. For all he knows he only has minutes before Unit 01 stops going WTF?!?! Mode and he loses Rei for good. His decision was rash, but it was understandable given the circumstance.

[Bagheera]

Tell that to all the people who are involuntarily committed for suicidal ideation every year. I'm sure they love how, even though they could respond, and even though they didn't want help, it was still forced down their throats by people on high.

They were committed because they were declared mentally unsound. That doesn't change laws of consent in this country (or in most of the developed world). I'm not making this shit up. And before you start up with your usual objections I'm not saying it's right because it's the law; I'm saying it's the law because it's a legit consideration, and that the notion that Shinji was automatically right in principle because he wanted to help Rei doesn't necessarily hold up. The fact that he didn't consult her on the matter is a big deal.

And yes, it really is different. It's different because Rei knows she's a clone, and she knows more about the situation than he does, and she is of sound mind at the time. She is not just a moody and depressed girl. Her situation, and thus her mindset, really is unique.

His decision was rash, but it was understandable given the circumstance.

Understandable, yes. But that doesn't make it the right decision.

[A.T. Fish]

She doesn't hate him so she must love him?

Why take it to the extreme? No, I didn't say you were trying to prove she loved him, but you did say that her actions contradicted any notion of hate, and to contradict hate she would at least need to care about him a bit, or not care at all.

Getting motivated for purely selfish reasons isn't exactly emblematic of positive character growth.

Depends, when we're talking about a character that didn't use to do much to improve his own life going out of his way to do something because it would be good for him can be a positive thing, and in this case it was (up until the world almost ended). The thing is, some selfishness is required to keep up the self esteem, and when that selfishness isn't harmful to others then it really isn't a problem (yes, in this case it was harmful to others, but he didn't know it would be).

It's the fact that he didn't even consider her feelings on the matter that's problematic. If he'd at least asked her why she felt that way I'd be more forgiving, as she might have given him some insight on why his current course was not such a hot idea. But he never even bothered to ask, so . . .

And y'know, you really should ask someone if they want your help before forcing it down their throat. Heck, in the U.S. you can't legally help them until they consent. consent is of course implied if they can't respond, but if they can respond you damn well better ask their opinion on the matter before you do anything.

When the alternative is death there isn't much to be asked, under normal circumstances everyone assumes that it's better to live than die.

He rather explicitly didn't care. And in any event, see the above discussion re: Japanese takes on responsibility and such. The mere fact that he didn't intend to blow up the world doesn't change the fact that he did it.

How can his intentions change nothing when we're discussing his growth? If he intended to blow everything up I'd be agreeing with you that he had no growth at all (in that case it would actually be regression), but he didn't, he just wanted to get the girl, so he went and got the girl, if he didn't intend to destroy everything than his action wasn't despicable.

[CJD]

Understandable, yes. But that doesn't make it the right decision.

It was an ethically sound decision, and as far as I'm concerned that's all that matters. I expect no more and no less of anyone.

[Bagheera]

It was an ethically sound decision, and as far as I'm concerned that's all that matters. I expect no more and no less of anyone.

Except it wasn't, for the reasons I noted. I'll say it again for emphasis: making decisions on someone else's behalf without their consent is not okay.

[CJD]

Except it wasn't, for the reasons I noted. I'll say it again for emphasis: making decisions on someone else's behalf without their consent is not okay.

And yet she comes willingly. She may have objected at first but she quickly gives in as Shinji pushes through whatever the barrier was. If she had kicked and screamed I'd be with you but as is an "I can't live anywhere else but here." line comes off more as a resignation to the fate she believes she is forced into than a statement about her desires, and how quickly she gives in supports that. Are you really arguing Rei wanted to stay in Zeruel?

[A.T. Fish]

Except it wasn't, for the reasons I noted. I'll say it again for emphasis: making decisions on someone else's behalf without their consent is not okay.

It was a matter of life and death, normally it's not unreasonable to skip the consent phase in this case, the scene would be ridiculous if he stopped at that point to have a conversation about why she didn't want to live. Edit: [s]By the way, in the end she did raise her hand for him to pull her so she accepted the rescue.[/s] Addressed by CJD.

[Bagheera]

And yet she comes willingly.

You're not getting it. We're talking about his intent here, right? He didn't even ask her. He just sat there and screamed at her until she did what he wanted, and he never even considered her desires at any point. And that is why Shinji did wrong in that scenario: past the consequences of his actions, past the notion of responsibility described earlier, he just didn't stop to think about what he was doing, who it would affect, and why. Instead it was pure, unadultered selfishness. "Give Rei back!"

Jeez. We aren't even tangentially talking about Asuka at this point.

[CJD]

You're not getting it. We're talking about his intent here, right? He didn't even ask her. He just sat there and screamed at her until she did what he wanted, and he never even considered her desires at any point. And that is why Shinji did wrong in that scenario: past the consequences of his actions, past the notion of responsibility described earlier, he just didn't stop to think about what he was doing, who it would affect, and why. Instead it was pure, unadultered selfishness. "Give Rei back!"

[s]You don't... we're not supposed to consider the desires of those with a death wish, are we?[/s] But that's irrelevant, anyway, because her objection is so half hearted it can hardly be counted as one. Again, it's more like a resignation to what she believes is her fate than her desire. She thinks she can't live anywhere else but there, she thinks she's as good as dead, but Shinji proves otherwise. He breaks down the barrier and saves her. He doesn't "scream at her until she did what he wanted," he convinced her that hope was not lost, that she could be saved. The look on her face when she opens her eyes and looks up on him shows this clear as day. She's surprised. Not insulted, not scared, not worried. She's surprised that he was able to achieve it, she's surprised that he was able to rescue her. And as soon as she can she reaches up to him to save her. She wants to be saved, she just didn't think it was possible.

Jeez. We aren't even tangentially talking about Asuka at this point.

I'm calling it now, CJD's Law: As a 3.0 thread grows longer, the probability of it devolving into arguments about Shinji approaches 1.

Now, I'm going to bed, where I plan to write in my diary about Asuka shlicking over Shinji's comatose body, draw doodles of Asuka shlicking over Shinji's comatose body, write fanfics of Asuka shlicking over Shinji's comatose body, and otherwise fantasize about what it would mean for their relationship if Asuka were to shlick over Shinji's comatose body. Because I'm just so obsessed with the idea I can't stop posting about it. Less than 3 times, tops.

[Darkwing]

I'm sorry CJD, but I just don't see Shikinami doing that. Sohryu during her breakdown, maybe.

[Bagheera]

Soryu's too much of a prude to even consider it, and I doubt Shikinami's that into the guy. Sorry CJD, I don't see any shlicking in either of their futures.

[elemileTLDR]

I don't see it happening either, CJD.
But I damned like the picture.
If I ever get horny enough, I might do it as fan art and acknowledge you as the intellectual author.

[KingXanaduu]

Okay? Let's get back on topic shall we. And, sorry for being late, was at work. ^^;

Slothen: I think your analysis of Soryu is spot on (not just saying that, as I think very few people actually get her), but I think it's a mistake to say she and Shikinami share the same spirit. As far as I can tell Shikinami was never as broken as Soryu was, and I'm not convinced her feelings on romance et al were even remotely similar. The same is true when considering Soryu's thirst for adulthood. Did Shikinami ever express similar feelings? She cares nothing for Kaji, doesn't care about dating, gives up on Shinji at the slightest provocation . . . no, I don't think there's much similarity there at all.

When it comes to fighting spirit, yes, there's some similarity, particularly in Q. But past that? I'm just not seeing it. At this point they're about as different as AU incarnations can be IMO.

So, with these differences and what we know now of both Asuka's, would you argue that the Soryu version is more sympathetic and dynamic than the Shikinami version, or do both of them have unique and equal traits?