Shinji Character Analysis (2.0/3.0)

[Lucretius]

The anti-subtext force field generators are operating full blast in this thread.

[MitsumuraKun51196]

Think about this if you take out the (NOT) What do you get
You Can Redo which means You Can Redo Your mistakes
and again which means you can fix it.I think many people haven't figured that out yet.
Think about it guys

[CJD]

The anti-subtext force field generators are operating full blast in this thread.

Nah, I'd say the "Determined to Hate Shinji" generators are operating at full blast, so people are finding reasons to hate him where they shouldn't be. Because remember

if we're really meant to take Shinji as a sympathetic victim and not as his universe's Chairman Mao, that's a writing failure on the part of Khara, not a failure of my reading of the movie. It doesn't really matter if the other characters in-universe retain a naively misplaced faith in Sjinji's goodness; his actions give the lie to a sympathetic reading of him.

If my interpretation of the movie is wrong, that's Khara's fault, not mine.

[SaltyJoe]

Shinji's responsibility towards himself and towards the world at large is to grow up, to develop a mature way of thinking without turning into Gendo. This is what he has been failing at spectacularly so far, and this is what his arc and the narrative as a whole is about. No more, no less.

He is not a voluntary mass murderer, he's just a clueless idiot who needs to stop being one, and Q showed him all the consequences of not doing that. This maturation is the one thing he needs to do, what everyone (within the narrative's own universe) expects him to do, and what he probably will not do till the end of Final or 4.0 or "repeat sign" or whatever.

As an aside, i kinda wish he was actually a full blown genocide machine. Maybe then Q wouldn't seem so mind-numbingly boring as it does.

[CJD]

Shinji's responsibility towards himself and towards the world at large is to grow up, to develop a mature way of thinking without turning into Gendo. This is what he has been failing at spectacularly so far, and this is what his arc and the narrative as a whole is about. No more, no less.

I do hope people realize that Shinji getting over his problems is more than just "growing up," even before the events of 2.0 and Q. In the real world no reasonable person would expect Shinji to overcome his issues without some intense therapy. His issues are a lot more than just being immature.

But yes, "growing up" is a part of it. Thing is, though, that's expected of everyone, we all have to grow up, and Shinji's just 14. Why is anyone expecting a 14 year old to act mature? That's something I don't get, personally. Would you guys honestly expect adult decisions from a 14 year old in the real world? Don't know where you're from, and I know it varies by country, but legal age in the US is 18, and hell, I've known people in their 20's who I don't think should be legally considered "adults" due to their immaturity. Now, that's not a good thing, not by far, and those people need to be grasped on the shoulder and told to "Grow up!" But Shinji? He's 14, and he doesn't have a strong adult figure to develop off of. Expecting him to act like an adult is like expecting a monkey to do algebra.

[Na7e]

But Shinji? He's 14, and he doesn't have a strong adult figure to develop off of.

He did have Kaji, but Shinji really didn't care much about his opinion. Putting on the "You don't know what the fuck your talking about" face when Kaji decides to impart wisdom on him.

[SaltyJoe]

While it's certainly a commendable idea to explore the full spectrum of troubles a character such as Shinji would have to face in life, most fictional works that want to impart some sort of message to their audience have to boil things down to a few basic themes.

Evangelion, theatrical or televised is no exception, least of all Q. This latest movie rams it's wisdom in the viewers' faces with the grace of a diarrheic rhino. "Kid" Shinji needs to grow up, otherwise people and fruity saviors from the Moon are going to keep dying.

And really, every time this movie series called attention to the Big Message so far, it had to do something with growing up/taking responsibility: from Misato scolding Shinji after Shamshel to the entire second half of 2.0.

[Kendrix]

He is not a voluntary mass murderer, he's just a clueless idiot who needs to stop being one, and Q showed him all the consequences of not doing that. This maturation is the one thing he needs to do, what everyone (within the narrative's own universe) expects him to do, and what he probably will not do till the end of Final or 4.0 or "repeat sign" or whatever.

As an aside, i kinda wish he was actually a full blown genocide machine. Maybe then Q wouldn't seem so mind-numbingly boring as it does.

Sorta this. I wouldn't say he has been "failing entirely" but he's obviously not quite there yet, as some failing certainly did take place.


@ CJD

I'd say that we're to understand that some positive developement took place, simply because this interview suggests it, ("Show me the damn truth!" IS a huge step forward from the Shinji we know) but in the same way that that say, being willing to face a mindraping monstrosity to save Asuka in 22, being capable of actually "shooting the dog" by 24 and knowing that getting into that mecha or not IS his choice by 25' were positive - yes they were, but at the end of the episode, it didn't help him at all because they were overshadowed by the negative impacts of negative events that were partially the results of his remaining limitations.

To quote the post episodetrailer to a certain elfen-lied episode "The small light of self-purification that honestly wanted to shine couldn't conquer the dephts of her personal darkness" or his personal darkness, in Shinji's case.

Of course "You shouldn't wallow in past mistakes" and stuff, but being told you're responsible for a large scale genocide whose victims and the world is so screwed up that is is quite legitimate for someone who lives in that world and doesn't know it's a movie with certain themes and messages, ethat they're past the event horizon and the reset button is the only option, even if it were an adult.



@ Rest
We must differenciate what the author wants us to take away from it (which certainly DOES include "The reset button is a lie/a disguise for all the bad stuff instrumentality standts for, so stop writing those fix fics!") and what the characters can expected to have known beforehand.
It was certainly meant for Shinji to learn that lesson after seeing the disastrous effects of it, but I don't think that "Idiot, you should have known!" was intended to be our primary reaction.
It's more a challenge that Shinji encounters on his journey because Anno wants something to happen to him that would ultimately teach him that lesson, and his storytelling is a harsh mistress, and part of his journey to becoming an adult - as much as the circumstances allow it.

I mean, the poor kid totally unravels after he finds out what happens, and yeah, he could have pulled through, Anno probably wants to teach us how to do that, but Shinji's reaction is the normal one, seeing through a plot tailored to him would be exceptional, not normal.

And just because there is a chance that he may also have gained something from that and because he wasn't exactly unhappy about that prospect (remember, at this point it's a question of, what does he do just to keep going, and the "greater good" is such an abstract, huge thing to hang on to.) doesn't mean that all the other statements about saving the world and his reaction to the generals state of destruction and disrepair are instantly moot.

Real people are like that, they usually have multiple reasons for a thing, which then have various degrees of relevancy for them.
And anyone who says that "not wanting to be hated" is "deserving of utter contempt" is... well, in that case, you and I have nothing to say to each other.
He thought it was gonna fix the world anyway, people not hating him or hating him less would always be a side effect of that, he may as well look forward to it.

and he was put into a situation where he had to make a call. rEtreat and risk losing the one chance, or pull the spears. He made one.
Compare with the Bardiel incident where he was plain unable to make such a huge choice.
Imagine he'd chosen to fight Bardiel, tried to save Asuka, but accidentally gotten her killed.
The final result would have been worse (Asuka dead vs, Asuka injured but alive) but as far as his actions themselves are concerned, and there are what we're talking about here, trying and failing is better than not trying at all.

The finales of the last two movies were trying and failing. Failing for a reason, maybe, certainly in the second case, but still trying and failing.

[Na7e]

It was certainly meant for Shinji to learn that lesson after seeing the disastrous effects of it, but I don't think that "Idiot, you should have known!" was intended to be our primary reaction.

00:57:20 {Fuyutsuki} Breaking the world is not difficult.
00:57:24 {Fuyutsuki} But rebuilding it, that isn't so easy.
00:57:28 {Fuyutsuki} The world can be reversed no more than time.

Wow...it's almost like Anno is trying to tell us something here. But, Shinji being Shinji good advice goes in one ear, and out the other.

[Darkwing]

It doesn't help that Anno is telling this deep meaningful message about how to live life, blah blah blah whatever, in a Giant Robot Sci-Fi mystery. The sheer magnitude of the effects from Shinji's growing pains doesn't help. If it were just breaking a girls heart, or messing up his relationships with everyone he knows, it'd be a lot easier to see. With all the Gian Robots and end of the world, you have a much harder time finding it so simple.

And the problem with Growing up is that Shinji is both doing it in such a trying situation (This is not like going to highschool and having a problem fitting in.), and the lack of responsible adults in his life. Like he said "You keep saying that but I don't even know what it's supposed to mean." The concept of the "worthless adults" who really aren't adults. Who is a good role model in Shinji's life? Not really Misato. Gendo? Hah yeah right. Kaji? Could have been, but it's not like they really had much time together. Thus far Kaworu has been the best, and that's a little scary.

[Kendrix]

00:57:20 {Fuyutsuki} Breaking the world is not difficult.
00:57:24 {Fuyutsuki} But rebuilding it, that isn't so easy.
00:57:28 {Fuyutsuki} The world can be reversed no more than time.

That's totally Fuyutsuki wooing him for their cause, after he proceeded to speak of Gendo's great efforts.

"Let's just smash the rest of it, since we can't fix it!"
While Fuyu doesn't approve the smashing, he does not see anyother way out.

Shinji doesn't agree with Fuyu and Gendo smashing the rest of it.
I dare you to say that's bad.

(After hearing Gendo's plans, he says he can't trust him anymore, and Kaworu explicitly says "I know a way of stopping NERV from doing fourth impact", which implies that something Shinji wants. In any case, he choses to try Kaworu's plan and subvert Gendo. He had "subvert Gendo" as an active goal he worked towards, even if he failed to accomplished it)

His answer to this at first was "...but what if I could fix it"
Yeah, that was the naive thinking of a child.
Nice try, but sadly the wrong answer.

Final will show us him finding the right one.
It's probably "Rebuild shit even if it takes a long time and involves hardship".

This whole thing probably contributed to the massive comunication fail at the end, Shinji probably assumed that Asuka was thinking they were actually willingly following Gendo's plan instead of her wanting to stop what they actually ended up doing.

[CJD]

He did have Kaji, but Shinji really didn't care much about his opinion. Putting on the "You don't know what the fuck your talking about" face when Kaji decides to impart wisdom on him.

Don't know what face you're talking about. I remember Shinji learning a lot from Kaji about Misato, and I'm sure the melon speech would have hit harder had it not immediately been followed by Bardiel. As for Kaji's ability to help Shinji, knowing someone for such a short period of time is not enough to fill the necessary role of an adult figure in the maturation of a youth. In NGE Kaji definitely fit the bill and, had his life not been so tragically cut short, he could have taken that role for Shinji.

While it's certainly a commendable idea to explore the full spectrum of troubles a character such as Shinji would have to face in life, most fictional works that want to impart some sort of message to their audience have to boil things down to a few basic themes.

And that message fails when it's not grounded in reality. If in the magical world of Evangelion people with problems Shinji has can get over them reasonably consistently without therapy than fine, Shinji needs to do that, but the cost of that is that the message is irrelevant to our world, it's alien.

Of course "You shouldn't wallow in past mistakes" and stuff, but being told you're responsible for a large scale genocide whose victims and the world is so screwed up that is is quite legitimate for someone who lives in that world and doesn't know it's a movie with certain themes and messages, ethat they're past the event horizon and the reset button is the only option, even if it were an adult.

Oh it's completely understandable. No one should expect more from Shinji than wallowing, to do so demonstrates a lack of understanding about the sheer scale of the crime being placed on him. For that matter, none of us will ever be able to truly empathize with Shinji in 3.0, not if the scale of 3I is as bad as it seems.

00:57:20 {Fuyutsuki} Breaking the world is not difficult.
00:57:24 {Fuyutsuki} But rebuilding it, that isn't so easy.
00:57:28 {Fuyutsuki} The world can be reversed no more than time.

Wow...it's almost like Anno is trying to tell us something here. But, Shinji being Shinji good advice goes in one ear, and out the other.

If you'er going to post lines from the movie how about you post the rest of the scene, eh?

00:57:32 {Fuyutsuki} Nor even the human heart...
00:57:35 {Fuyutsuki} And thus, so that his wish might be granted,
00:57:38 {Fuyutsuki} Ikari is paying every price there is.
00:57:41 {Fuyutsuki} Even his very soul.

Ikari is paying every price there is so that his wish might be granted directly implies that if you pay a big enough price the world can be reversed, or at the least that Gendo thinks it can.

[Kendrix]

ng every price there is so that his wish might be granted directly implies that if you pay a big enough price the world can be reversed, or at the least that Gendo thinks it can.

Not that what Fuyutsuki and Gendo think is particularly indicative as to what is "right".

What Gendo is "paying" for is not normal human life with highshools and the like (ie, what Shinji wanted to get back)

Their stance is "The world is so screwed up, out Instrumentality is the only way". That smashing the rest of it is easier than trying to rebuild it, Rebuilding it won't work...

Shinji was probably disagreeing with Fuyu's speech - and that's right.

He just hadn't found the correct alternative answer to "fix it with Gendo's instrumentality" yet (It obviously wasn't "maybe I can un-screw it"), because his journey isn't finished yet.

[esselfortium]

If you'er going to post lines from the movie how about you post the rest of the scene, eh?

00:57:32 {Fuyutsuki} Nor even the human heart...
00:57:35 {Fuyutsuki} And thus, so that his wish might be granted,
00:57:38 {Fuyutsuki} Ikari is paying every price there is.
00:57:41 {Fuyutsuki} Even his very soul.

Ikari is paying every price there is so that his wish might be granted directly implies that if you pay a big enough price the world can be reversed, or at the least that Gendo thinks it can.

Because if there's anybody Shinji ought to try emulating after deciding to hate him forever and never trust him again in 2.0, it's dear old dad.

Also, even the rest of Fuyutski's speech you posted is pretty clearly saying "this is impossible and/or the worst idea ever".

Oh it's completely understandable. No one should expect more from Shinji than wallowing, to do so demonstrates a lack of understanding about the sheer scale of the crime being placed on him.

What was expected from Shinji in Q was very simple, so much so that it was literally impossible to screw up without putting him squarely and completely in the wrong for doing so. It was "DON'T DO IT AGAIN." That was what was expected out of him. Not magic.

If my interpretation of the movie is wrong, that's Khara's fault, not mine.

By definition, it doesn't work this way, dude...

[SaltyJoe]

And that message fails when it's not grounded in reality. If in the magical world of Evangelion people with problems Shinji has can get over them reasonably consistently without therapy than fine, Shinji needs to do that, but the cost of that is that the message is irrelevant to our world, it's alien.

Hey now, don't get me wrong, everything i read about or saw of Q has me convinced that it chokes balls, and the excessively forced preaching is one of the principal issues i have with it.

Still, this thread seemed to be going down the Shinji is Hitler route, and i merely pointed out that i think it's wrong, and gave my idea of what he is actually like and why that is.

Just for the record, did you like EoTV? Casue that's more or less what you described, unless you accept fifty minutes of pop-psych yakking as a believeable substitute for therapy.

[Seele00TextOnly]

If my interpretation of the movie is wrong, that's Khara's fault, not mine.

Okay, that's barely ever right with any work, least of all Evangelion. Really.

Second of all it's exactly the same kind of 'Huh? Me? Make any real mistake or do anything really wrong? D:' mentality that Shinji exudes so much in this movie.

The fact remains that Shinji was made more whiny and petulant than ever, going all the way back to 1.0, in Rebuild. If you got trolled in 2.0 thanks to pretty music and tunnel vision, then you were supposed to get trolled. If you or anyone is pissed off that things didn't turn out all hunky dory when Shinji 'manned up' for the 'first time' and other such nonsense drivel I've seen at various sites, then actually you're exactly the type of person who's supposed to be learning something from all this. Things you (again, plural) should have already known. The first part of this learning is going to be frothing anger and denial, more or less. When you get past that is up to you; depends on how much of the Curse of Eva you're going to cling to at heart, whether abandoning the work or not.

Basically Shinji is fully capable of identifying oneself with, but usually it's going to be the immature 'innocent' part of one that hasn't grown up, assuming one has at all. That doesn't make him evil, but he sure as hell is flawed and in the process of hopefully finally learning a great many things.

[Kendrix]

What was expected from Shinji in Q was very simple, so much so that it was literally impossible to screw up without putting him squarely and completely in the wrong for doing so. It was "DON'T DO IT AGAIN." That was what was expected out of him. Not magic.

^So you're saying "sit around and do nothing" like WILLE told him would've been the right thing?


Waaaaait a sec, didn't we spent the last 26 episodes and 4 movies elaborating how this is wrong?

And all those glaringly obvious parallels between the Kaworu/Shinji scene before their departure and the Misato-farewell scene?

All that stuff establishing how trying and failing is better than just giving up. (essentially, what Fuyutsuki did. "Okay, I'm with you after all, Gendo, let's finsish nuking this place to hell." )

"Do nothing" was quite obviously NOT the way.
And if you try things, you may screw up, yeah.
Again, that shouldn't be this new, we just never got to see it that far because the previous shows ended at that realization itself.

This is where we actually see Shinji act on it, do things on his own and risk getting them wrong (and learn further lessons on the way), this is where Rebuild at least spiritually continues the original.

The next logical step is, of course, to analyze how one can deal with doing things wrong, even if you had the best intentions.

[Seele00TextOnly]

^ Yes, I'm saying Shinji should've taken the time to sit there and not do anything for a while. Learn about your environment before fucking it up again. Wille was right on track to start crossing names off the list; charge right up into headquarters and start painting the walls with Gendo juice. Instead...

[esselfortium]

^So you're saying "sit around and do nothing" like WILLE told him would've been the right thing?


Waaaaait a sec, didn't we spent the last 26 episodes and 4 movies elaborating how this is wrong?

And all those glaringly obvious parallels between the Kaworu/Shinji scene before their departure and the Misato-farewell scene?

All that stuff establishing how trying and failing is better than just giving up. (essentially, what Fuyutsuki did. "Okay, I'm with you after all, Gendo, let's finsish nuking this place to hell." )

"Do nothing" was quite obviously NOT the way.
And if you try things, you may screw up, yeah.
Again, that shouldn't be this new, we just never got to see it that far because the previous shows ended at that realization itself.

This is where we actually see Shinji act on it, do things on his own and risk getting them wrong (and learn further lessons on the way), this is where Rebuild at least spiritually continues the original.

The next logical step is, of course, to analyze how one can deal with doing things wrong, even if you had the best intentions.

When the alternative is Let's Start Another Impact then yes. There is not a bigger "yes" possible for this.

Failing that, there is also the option there of not doing something rash and incredibly dangerous against all advice from everyone who has ever cared about you. There are a lot of ways to do something without doing something so despicably stupid, selfish, and irresponsible.

[Kendrix]

Sorry, no.


If he was told this was all his fault, and he HAD just sat there like it's someone else's problem, THEN he would've been irredeemable scum.

He's doing it wrong, but him setting out to fix it is him bearing the consequences as far as his limitations allow it.
He's got strong, urgent feelings about what happened.
This is him attempting to make up for it, right there.


In this show, "Sit on your butt" has ALWAYS been wrong, ALWAYS, no exceptions.

As Darkwing said, this was only winnable to a certain degree.

The best outcome would've been "let the spears be and feel Asuka's halberd"..

After having seen the camrip, there can be no doubt that regardless of her deeper feelings for him, she WAS out for his blood.
Of course she was, the entire world is at stake and someone who just ran off to the enemy ( prom her PoV) can't be trusted.