[Music] The Grand Music Discussion Thread

[Kutta]

I'll just leave this here.

http://www.ni9e.com/nwa.html

Is it only me having the impression that the English language has WAY too few swearwords? compared to Hungarian, at least

[Xard]

Japan WHAT HAVE YOU DONE

That is so wrong on so many levels

(original)

[Joseph the PRPD]

That was horrifying.

[Oz]

That was the best thing I have ever seen.

Fixed.

[Eva Yojimbo]

I spent last week going through Immortal's discography and I came to some conclusions:

1. At The Heart of Winter is one of the best, most kickass metal albums ever. I mean, seriously, is there a sub-standard riff or song on that album?
2. Immortal are the best of the "traditional" Norwegian Black Metal bands IMO. By "traditional" I mean those that came out of the first wave; just straight-ahead, ferocious black metal minus the progressive or symphonic element. Perhaps it's my own bias against the style (I really don't care for Mayhem or Blackthrone; Burzum I can tolerate), but there's something about Immortal that just really taps into the best the genre offers without ever veering off into the worst.
3. Their entire discography is incredibly solid. Only their debut and Blizzard Beasts approach mediocrity. Everything else ranges from excellent (Pure Holocaust, Battles in the North, Damned in Black, All Shall Fall) to masterpiece (At the Heart of Winter, Sons of the Northern Darkness).

Japan WHAT HAVE YOU DONE )

I LOL'd.

[Merridian]

Immortal’s cool, but I think Mayhem’s the ‘purest’ () of the second wave of black metal*--and easily more important in terms of influence and scene, since Euronymous got a great deal of the other artists to begin recording despite his impossible-to-work-with persona. IMO, aside from Emperor, Mayhem probably embodies the spirit of black metal condensed into its lowest and most extreme factors; it has the atmosphere, but that isn’t quite as important as the utterly unmatched hatred, ferocity, and unapologetic existence all wrapped up in a bundle of absolutely unforgiving sonic assaults.

At least, their earlier stuff does. I’d say they were THE archetypical black metal band up to the release of De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas, since not only were they actually playing black metal, their band itself was volatile, hateful of themselves and each other to absurd extremes, and rather notorious to the point of urban legend in regards to live performances. Just as the black metal philosophy embodied in its extreme music was self destructive and cannibalistic, Mayhem wreaked havoc upon everything and everyone until they completely destroyed themselves.

There isn’t a whole lot of stuff that they recorded from “back then”, but Deathcrush is a pretty important BM “document”, as is Dawn of the Black Hearts—the rather infamous live bootleg that has some damn fine music on it despite the fact that isn’t what it’s known for. After De Mysteriis dom Sathanas, the surviving members of the band disappeared for awhile until Hellhammer resurrected it for apparently no reason at all. Their new stuff is pretty awful.

The only band that I’ve come across to surpass the amount of rage embodied in Mayhem’s songs would be Ildjarn, an obnoxiously obscure one-man black metal act from Norway during roughly the same time. He played bass for Ihsahn’s & Samoth’s first project, Thou Shalt Suffer, but he also recorded quite a bit of his own material that’s damn near impossible to get a hold of. I have Forest Poetry on hardcopy, but that’s it. Lo-fi as hell, but damn, this guy sounds pissed.

*First Wave of Black Metal is reserved for a loose collection of artists that influenced the Norwegian Second Wave—primarily Celtic Frost, Hellhammer (the band, not the drummer), Venom, Mercyful Fate, and Bathory, but there are a few others that can fit in this category as well. It’s always seemed to me to be one of those “fake labels” similar to “proto-punk” that is applied in retrospect without actually looking at musical characteristics but rather influence. There’s some good stuff in the First Wave, but IMO the Second Wave really provided much more innovation and creativity.

I consider there to be a THIRD wave of black metal nowadays that roughly started after the release of Prometheus, characterized by higher production values, increased integration/fusion of Industrial or Death Metal structures/practices, and a further removal from the “black metal as atmosphere” philosophy towards a more song-oriented approach similar to Immortal or Darkthrone. Ideally later-day Dimmu Borgir, later Behemoth, Tidfall, Cobalt (debatable), and particularly Zyklon among many others would slide into this “third wave” umbrella, since many of these bands are labeled “Blackened-Death Metal” officially. Whatever “officially” means anymore…

Immortal’s pretty cool, but they more bridged into black/thrash fusion. They’re certainly enjoyable and musically solid, and I admit that I listen to them more often than Mayhem. Musically I’d probably hold Burzum above them in terms of "black metal band" simply because Burzum sounds more ZOMGtr00 to black metal 'philosophy' regarding atmosphere and structures, even though he wasn’t nearly as badass sounding as Immortal. I can see why you dig Immortal so much though; they're far more accessible and listenable than a great deal of the primary Second Wave guys.

[Sepulcural Voice]

I recently got Pure Holocaust by Immortal, i'm probably going to give it a listen today, since a couple people in my metal review thread over at Spoony One's forum* asked me to review an album of theirs in between some of the other stuff i'm doing.

Only other stuff of theirs i've heard was At The Heart of Winter a long-time ago (I can't remember much of anything about it right now) and a song or two off Battles in the North (which wasn't bad, but holy fuck those kick drums were LOUD.) So i'll see how this goes soon.

*i'm pretty certain you have to register in order to view... I could repost some of them in a different thread here if anybody's interested though.

EDIT: I also got a copy of Convulse's World Without God last night... i'm so glad Relapse re-issued the album; it's one of the lost gems of Finnish death metal. Convulse played a sort of doomy death metal ala what Demigod did on Slumber of Sullen Eyes, but the two are alternated more overtly on the Convulse LP, which I enjoy a bit more. There's a lot of great riffs and decent leads, on here, and there's enough captivatying moments to the songwriting to where I can forgive the very standard vocal performance. It's a really good album, I didn't expect to enjoy it as much as I did.

[Eva Yojimbo]

Hehe, I wrote that post just to get you started, Merri, because I love to hear you ramble about metal. There's always a healthy dose of info in your posts about stuff I both knew and didn't know but am now quite happy to know.

Immortal’s cool, but I think Mayhem’s the ‘purest’ () of the second wave of black metal*--and easily more important in terms of influence and scene... Just as the black metal philosophy embodied in its extreme music was self destructive and cannibalistic, Mayhem wreaked havoc upon everything and everyone until they completely destroyed themselves.

Make no mistake, I pretty much wholeheartedly agree in terms of Mayhem being more pure, being more influential, embodying the spirit more and all that jazz. But the simple fact is that every time I listen to Mayhem all I really hear is what I consider to be REALLY sub-standard metal and musical content. Just from a pure musical perspective Immortal blows them away. But, yeah, Mayhem in-and-of themselves are the stuff that metal mythology is made of. I think the band is far and away more interesting than the actual music.

First Wave of Black Metal is reserved for a loose collection of artists that influenced the Norwegian Second Wave—primarily Celtic Frost, Hellhammer (the band, not the drummer), Venom, Mercyful Fate, and Bathory... There’s some good stuff in the First Wave, but IMO the Second Wave really provided much more innovation and creativity.

Interesting history lesson (or theory) here. I never really considered any of those bands to be black metal in the truest sense. Well, it gets a bit murky because I really see those as the bands that first influenced the genre without quite being it themselves. It's somehow the way I think about Black Sabbath and the debate over whether they were metal or fit into the category of hard rock; there are intelligent proponents on both sides. I think in any movement there are those bands that really bridge one style into another and end up really straddling the fence. As an analog, Beethoven kinda did it with Classical and Romantic. I love Celtic Frost especially, but they seem to really split the line between thrash and black metal, but I consider them closer to the former. Venom almost have to be put in their own special place as they were practically the bridge between the NWOBHM and all of the extreme forms of metal that came after; especially considering their two albums even precedes Mettalica's debut. Likewise, Mercyful Fate seems to be squarely in the Priest/Maiden mold only perhaps half-a-step forward to extreme metal. Now, Bathory I can definitely see being named a legitimate member of some theoretical black metal new wave. They may very well mark the first full step into the genre.

I consider there to be a THIRD wave of black metal nowadays

Oh definitely. Though it gets a bit tricky saying where it starts and who it applies to.

Immortal’s pretty cool, but they more bridged into black/thrash fusion. I can see why you dig Immortal so much though; they're far more accessible and listenable than a great deal of the primary Second Wave guys.

I'm not sure it has to do with accessibility as much as that I just don't find a lot of "ZOMGtr00" black metal stuff all that musically interesting. It's almost always the bands that mix it with something else. And you bringing up that Immortal has a kind of black/thrash fusion thing going that maybe it, because At the Heart of Winter (my fave from them, obviously) bears more than a passing resemblance to thrash. It's probably their most riff/song oriented with a greater focus on lengthier compositions which is really a rarity for them. But, damn, those songs and riffs are just SO FUCKING GOOD! I mean, I was listening to it the other day and I think I was blown away by every single song if not every damn riff and change.

BTW, I know how much you love Emperor, but which releases do you have? I have the original releases, then several years back they put out some "Enhanced" releases which are inn gorgeous slip-cased digipacks. Then they released mini-box sets of each album which I also got. They're all pretty cool from just an aesthetic perspective.

[Merridian]

Glad to be of service. I was a hueg metal fan in high school, prior to getting into post-rock, jazz, and the more experimental music, so much of my knowledge base regarding M3T4LZ comes from around that time. On one hand it’s awesome, since it makes great cocktail conversation with others that are into it, but on the other hand it kinda sucks because it means that all the time I spent listening to metal could have been better applied trying to pick up chicks.

I still listen to metal obviously, just not as actively as I used to.

every time I listen to Mayhem all I really hear is what I consider to be REALLY sub-standard metal and musical content. Just from a pure musical perspective Immortal blows them away. But, yeah, Mayhem in-and-of themselves are the stuff that metal mythology is made of. I think the band is far and away more interesting than the actual music.

No argument here! It’s really funny listening to Euronymous describe Mayhem’s music, too—I found an interview that’s been posted on youtube here that’s priceless. I like Deathcrush, but damn, I gotta wonder what makes people “worthy” of listening to it Pretentious dude is pretentious. He does make note of how he uses full chords instead of just power chords—which as you’ll probably know is a pain in the ass for shredding… at least it is for me, which is why I don’t shred—in order to convey a sense of atmosphere otherwise lacking in typical metal or rock music. Granted, doing this with lotsa distortion makes the music barely removed from noise music, but I think this is a case of “what came later was infinitely better and more refined, but kudos to the pioneers for attempting it”.

I never really considered any of those bands to be black metal in the truest sense.

Yeah you’re right with just about all of what you described, and it goes back to how “First Wave BM” is basically a label formed around sphere of influence rather than musical characteristics. Each one of them certainly has elements that preceded and anticipated the ultra-extreme shit that came later, but the only way to really consider them all in a genre by themselves is with a backward-looking revisionist labeling system just like “proto-punk” or “proto-anything” really. There seems to be high-speed tremolo picking across the board, though, but I don’t think that’s enough to justify a unified genre per se.

Bathory’s an interesting case, since on one hand his lo-fi production values and dirty distortion sound superficially identical to the second wavers, but on the other hand the songs themselves sound more like the early Teutonic thrash metal (particularly early Kreator) with the BM rasps thrown in. BM was heavily influenced by the Teutonic Thrash scene as well, FWIW.

Though it gets a bit tricky saying where it starts and who it applies to.

Yeah. I think that’s why no one really wants to come out and give it an actual label. I can’t say I blame them—I use labels all the time to describe things, but I find them to be pains in the ass just like everyone else. Especially when asked to describe my own recordings… what a headache.

But, damn, those songs and riffs are just SO FUCKING GOOD! I mean, I was listening to it the other day and I think I was blown away by every single song if not every damn riff and change.

Definitely, and their production tends to be pretty awesome as well. I really like the sound of their guitars on most of their albums--it calls to mind the really strange sound (for its time) of the guitars on Thorns' self-titled release from the early-00's. I thought Thorns was supposed to release a new album at some point, but that's probably been BURIED BY TIME AND DUST.

BTW, I know how much you love Emperor, but which releases do you have? I have the original releases, then several years back they put out some "Enhanced" releases which are inn gorgeous slip-cased digipacks. Then they released mini-box sets of each album which I also got. They're all pretty cool from just an aesthetic perspective.

Their first four releases I have as one of the CD reissues that are in jewel cases with slip covers (I know they're re-releases because they have bonus tracks) with only Prometheus as an original release. I also picked up fancy box ones when they came out figuring that they'd have extra stuff, but it's basically the same reissue as the previous one with different packaging and posters :) Someday I’d like to get their stuff on vinyl assuming the pricetags don’t suck my guts out.

[backseatjesus]

the new Gorillaz album is fucking epic.

[THE Hal E. Burton 9000]

^so so true

I was disappointed with Demon Days, but I think Plastic Beach has more than made up for it

[Captain_Morgan]

the new Gorillaz album is fucking epic.

Shit, I didn't know they were coming out with a new one till yesterday.

Now I've got yet another reason to look forward to the 9th...

[Fazmotron]

I thought it was meh. Like Demon Days there were a few stand out tracks like "Superfast Jellyfish" and "Stylo", but their first album is still my favourite.

[Orichalcon]

Just got the Cowboy Bebop OST. HOLY CRAP.

[Oz]

Just got the Cowboy Bebop OST. HOLY CRAP.

ALL of them?

[Orichalcon]

5-album package deal. I don't know whether to play them or frame them.

[Oz]

5-album package deal. I don't know whether to play them or frame them.

Hehe. You should get the OSTs (3) for the film too - that would make the collection complete.

[Orichalcon]

I will as soon as my coffers are refilled.

[Captain_Morgan]

Picked up You've Come A Long Way, Baby a few days ago. Probably going to be the soundtrack of my 2010. Yeah, I'm a bit late to the party. Shut up.

[chee]

Japan WHAT HAVE YOU DONE