[Music] The Grand Music Discussion Thread

[Eva Yojimbo]

Does anyone have any thoughts on Rush?

A very good band that has been fiercely individual in forging their own path throughout their career. Every member is incredibly skilled and they have a signature sound that few bands ever achieve. That said, personally, I love most all their contemporaries (Yes, Genesis, King Crimson) and their followers (Queensryche, Dream Theater) more than them. It's just a personal thing, but I can't fault their talent.

[Ornette]

Though I've heard that Vai and Malmsteen have both played many Paganini pieces live.... though I can't speak as to their ability to do so. Plus, I know players like Shawn Lane would've been able to play pieces like that - I've heard from some life-long professional guitarists that some of their original music was even more challenging than Paganini.

What they are playing live isn't even remotely close to what is originally written on paper (although if they were to play what was written on paper, it would sound like shit). I've read and played music from both, and I don't believe it for a second. When I played an electric guitar in the jazz band in highschool, I've never ran into anything from these people (Malmsteen, Vai, Satrioni) that I wasn't able to play at tempo with little or no practice. This isn't to say that they don't have harder things that they play, or write music that is purposely hard to play on the guitar (i.e. Paganini or Green), but playing fast isn't hard to do.

And yeah, I know it's apples and oranges, I was trying to be facetious.

[Eva Yojimbo]

What they are playing live isn't even remotely close to what is originally written on paper (although if they were to play what was written on paper, it would sound like shit).

I think that's a bit presumptuous since we have no way of knowing.

I've read and played music from both, and I don't believe it for a second....

Sorry for the confusion, I was talking about Shawn Lane there who is more of a fusion guy anyway. I'm convinced he simply has a motor in his fingers... Regular hands don't move that fast. If you haven't heard him, check out his work with Jonas Hellborg (Icon, Personae, Good People in Times of Evil, Zenhouse, Time is the Enemy) - they're all excellent.

Satch is more of a rock guy and has never been all that complex. Vai being a student of Zappa is more about experimenting as well, though there's still parts of For the Love of God that give me fits (though I don't claim to be all that good anyway).

[CorporalChaos]

Does anyone have any thoughts on Rush?

I love Tom Sawyer and have lately become intrigued by their idea of blending Prog Rock with the works of Ayn Rand.

Could have something to do with recently finishing Bioshock, which was also inspired by Rand's works.

Oh, and if anyone is a fan of Rush, then I again recommend Coheed. They were tremendously influenced by Rush, and it is very evident.

Heh. 2112 is probably the epitome of their works based on Randian distopias. That's probably the main album to check out, if you haven't already. That being said, all of the albums between their debut in 1974 and 1981 are pretty good. After that, its taken me a couple of listens before I start to like it. Don't really like Tom Sawyer too much, its an okay song, but it suffers from too much radio play.


On a related note, ELP is a pretty good prog rock band. It probably helps that I love the sound of the Moog. Such a nice, pure tone...

[Ornette]

This is hilarious: http://www.jazzoasis.com/methenyonkennyg.htm

But when Kenny G decided that it was appropriate for him to defile the music of the man who is probably the greatest jazz musician that has ever lived by spewing his lame-ass, jive, pseudo bluesy, out-of-tune, noodling, wimped out, fucked up playing all over one of the great Louis's tracks (even one of his lesser ones), he did something that I would not have imagined possible. He, in one move, through his unbelievably pretentious and calloused musical decision to embark on this most cynical of musical paths, shit all over the graves of all the musicians past and present who have risked their lives by going out there on the road for years and years developing their own music inspired by the standards of grace that Louis Armstrong brought to every single note he played over an amazing lifetime as a musician. By disrespecting Louis, his legacy and by default, everyone who has ever tried to do something positive with improvised music and what it can be, Kenny G has created a new low point in modern culture - something that we all should be totally embarrassed about - and afraid of. We ignore this, "let it slide", at our own peril.

also: http://www.till.com/blog/archives/2005/03/i_agree_with_ri.html

[Eva Yojimbo]

That's a fascinating article Ornette! I've always respect Metheny as a musician even though I was never much of a fan of his music (at least what I've heard). I think most everyone knows Kenny G sucks. I mean, when even Conan O'Brien is dissing you... I'm not sure if I would take it as far as Matheny did in that article. He seems to be a bit hyperbolic, though I understand it's coming from a place of passion, which I can understand and respect.

I actually found this part fascinating:

But he did show a knack for connecting to the basest impulses of the large crowd by deploying his two or three most effective licks (holding long notes and playing fast runs - never mind that there were lots of harmonic clams in them) at the key moments to elicit a powerful crowd reaction (over and over again).

There consistently seems to be a disconnect from the audience who enjoys mediums and those who perform/create or experience critically and passionately. I've often wondered if this difference is due to how one experiences art. The more passionate and critical seem to do so firstly intellectually, while the rest seems to enjoy it emotionally and unconsciously. Any thoughts from anyone?

Heh. 2112 is probably the epitome of their works based on Randian distopias.

2112 is good, but I still prefer Moving Pictures. Both are excellent albums though.

On a related note, ELP is a pretty good prog rock band. It probably helps that I love the sound of the Moog. Such a nice, pure tone...

Not a big ELP fan but they had one of the all time great drummers in Carl Palmer.

[CorporalChaos]

Heh. 2112 is probably the epitome of their works based on Randian distopias.

2112 is good, but I still prefer Moving Pictures. Both are excellent albums though.

My favorite Rush album is actually Permanent Waves, but I was just saying that 2112 is the album that shows the most influence from Ayn Rand.

[BobBQ]

One day, some time ago, I listened to Warren Zevon's Roland the Headless Thompson Gunner because it had a funny title. I liked it, so I listened to it a few more times. Then I tried Lawyers, Guns and Money. Then Keep Me in Your Heart. While I was raised in a pretty much strictly classical household and consider myself largely indifferent to those genres of modern music which I don't actively despise, I've found something strangely appealing about Zevon's songs. I'm even starting to wish I'd known about him back when he was alive, which for me is particularly strange because I positively hate going to live performances of anything.

Just goes to show that there's an exception to every rule, I guess.

[Squirrel Ninja]

Stuff About Weakling's album Dead as Dreams

Are there lyrics of this album floating around anywhere, I'm interested, but I don't think I'd get far w/o a translation.

[Eva Yojimbo]

One day, some time ago, I listened to Warren Zevon's Roland the Headless Thompson Gunner because it had a funny title. I liked it, so I listened to it a few more times. Then I tried Lawyers, Guns and Money. Then Keep Me in Your Heart. While I was raised in a pretty much strictly classical household and consider myself largely indifferent to those genres of modern music which I don't actively despise, I've found something strangely appealing about Zevon's songs.

I've been interested in checking out Zevon for a while, but haven't gotten around to doing so. What's he like?

Are there lyrics of this album floating around anywhere, I'm interested, but I don't think I'd get far w/o a translation.

Apparently not

Maelstrom: Will Weakling lyrics ever be available?

John Gossard: I have no idea.

Maelstrom: Do you have them recorded somewhere?

John Gossard: No. They’re all in my head.

....

Maelstrom: Yes. I’m aware of that quality of the knowledge of where the ideas came from as dispelling the power that the finished product has over me. Like, when I asked about the lyrics being available, if you had said “yes,” my next thought might have been, “would I really want to know what they are?” What they really are may not be as cool as what my imagination can come up with.

John Gossard: That’s sort of the whole point on not having complete lyrics. It’s quite simple that my lyrics aren’t printed because I don’t know what they are. If you listen to tapes of us live, the lyrics won’t be the same as on the record. A lot of times, what I’m saying isn’t even words. Often they are, as far as I can tell. The concept about the song is always the same.

I was trying to do something that would prevent me from being in the same mental state whenever I played the song. Because then I’d be in something routine.

Maelstrom: This makes me think of Obituary. They have sort of a lyric sheet on Cause of Death, but the lyrics run throughout all the songs. Something like two sentences for each. I think that’s all he had, and went off on it.

John Gossard: I’m aware of that. For me, I was focused on writing good lyrics. I was aware of what I’m talking about, but I don’t know how to say it. And I’d rather not pretend to be the spokesman. I didn’t like being the vocalist. I didn’t like being in that position. I just felt that if we were going to be playing this kind of shit, this is what I should be doing. I don’t remember what it was like being on stage. But it was not comfortable.

Maelstrom: But wasn’t that so important to the success of the music? Your pain in being the vocalist came through in the vocals. That’s what was part of the truth of what you were doing.

John Gossard: I don’t know if I was aware of it enough to have thought about it.

[Squirrel Ninja]

In a way that's cool, and I respect what he's trying to do, but in another way, I think it might make it too difficult for me to get into a half an hour song where I can't understand what he's saying, ah well might as well give it a shot.

[Eva Yojimbo]

Approach it like classical music or jazz; the music is the language itself, and the vocals are just another instrumental voice.

[Mundane]

A band I'd like to recommend is Necrophagist (eater of the dead for you latin nuts).

Tech Death band, one of my favorites without question.

WARNING: This is Death Metal, expect brutal lyrics and use of diminished and "OMG HARMONIC MINOR TASTELESSNESS!!!!" scales. Some of the most original licks I've heard, ever.

I HIGHLY recommend them to anyone who likes Death Metal.

[Eva Yojimbo]

I dig Necrophagist, and I also love tech metal. Along those same lines check out Spawn of Possession. Behold... The Arctopus are similar but without the vocals. Oh, and Dillenger Escape Plan... because they are teh awesome too.

[zimlord]

Necrophagist

pretty good group. listened to them a lot back in the day. suicmez is definitely skilled. random song of theirs that comes to mind...Stabwound.

techmetal wise, recently i've been listenin to some Opeth and Meshuggah, both solid groups. also, fun time signatures...


also, i've gotten into experimental metal...i poked around and i guess that's the 'name' for it. very avant garde stuff, in the sense that you'll hear very heavy death metal riffs and schizo jazz or funk in the same tune. cool stuff. some bands to check out, Mr. Bungle, Fantomas, Ephel Duath...

Fantomas - Fire Walk With Me. very weird video, but the song definitely succeeds in giving off the vibe of the Red Room.

some good Ephel Duath


metal-wise, i'm also swayed by Power Metal, my favorite band of the genre being the finnish Sonata Arctica. power metal in general has an 'epic', mystical feel to it. see any Rhapsody of Fire song to verify this, hehe. sort of brings me back to my LOTR days when i give it a good listen. ah, and there's always an emphasis on good vocals, and, while a death grunt is fine, too, one has to appreciate clean vocals in modern metal.

Sonata Arctica - Don't Say a Word

along with the two groups i mentioned above, other bands of this genre...Dragonforce (wildly overrated but not bad), Stratovarius, Hammerfall, Galneryus (of Wapanese extraction, no less), Angra, Helloween (old school), Blind Guardian, Kamelot, Symphony X, Pyramaze, etc...

[Eva Yojimbo]

techmetal wise, recently i've been listenin to some Opeth and Meshuggah, both solid groups. also, fun time signatures...

Opeth is not tech metal (progressive melodic death metal), and Meshuggah is just Meshuggah. There's nobody quite like them, though they're not quite what I'd consider tech metal - math metal is a better term. Some crazy polyrhythms.

also, i've gotten into experimental metal...i poked around and i guess that's the 'name' for it. very avant garde stuff, in the sense that you'll hear very heavy death metal riffs and schizo jazz or funk in the same tune. cool stuff. some bands to check out, Mr. Bungle, Fantomas, Ephel Duath...

Thanks for the recs, sounds like my kind of stuff. In the realm of experimental, avant-garde metal try Kayo Dot and, hell, just the rest of John Zorn's Tzadik label for experimental music.

metal-wise, i'm also swayed by Power Metal, my favorite band of the genre being the finnish Sonata Arctica. power metal in general has an 'epic', mystical feel to it. see any Rhapsody of Fire song to verify this, hehe. sort of brings me back to my LOTR days when i give it a good listen. ah, and there's always an emphasis on good vocals, and, while a death grunt is fine, too, one has to appreciate clean vocals in modern metal.

I can only take power metal in small doses, however there are a few really good bands in the genre. Blind Guardian is probably my favorite power metal band. Though I love some of the bands that combine power metal with other genres, like Nervermore and Iced Earth.

[Sachi]

Here's one.

Vicious Rumors. They've been around since the 80's, but they never really made it big. A mixture of NWOHM (such as Iron Maiden and Judas Priest) and Thrash (like Metallica and Slayer). This guy has a really good metal voice, and he can sing. The guitarist shreads, and overall, the songs are good. They've released a few albums, and my dad has actually played a show with them (not in the band, but in another).

Against the Grain. Only one I could find that was good. Other stuff includes March or Die and Ministry of Fear.

[zimlord]

though they're not quite what I'd consider tech metal - math metal is a better term.

ah, math metal, then. sometimes i think this classification of genres goes a little too far though.

try Kayo Dot and, hell, just the rest of John Zorn's Tzadik label for experimental music.

haven't listened to much of Kayo Dot, but i have heard a fair bit of Maudlin of the Well. liked them enough, so i'll look into Kayo dot.

As for Zorn, a teacher of mine introduced me to his music a while back. i love his stuff. ridiculously chill, fascinating music. the epitome of experimental, no doubt.
i'll look into his label more.

Iced Earth.

ah, forgot them. my bad. :)

[Eva Yojimbo]

Vicious Rumors. .

Again sounds right up my alley. I love NWOHM and thrash. Thanks.

ah, math metal, then. sometimes i think this classification of genres goes a little too far though.

The fussing over genres, in metal especially, is completely ridiculous. There's probably 100 sub-genres of death metal alone. The thing about Meshuggah is they kinda defy easy classification. They're so idiosyncratic that it's really difficult to put them under any pre-existing metal labels.

liked them enough, so i'll look into Kayo dot.

I've never been able to find any MotW to listen to (though I haven't looked for torrents). I'd recommend their first two albums - Choirs of the Eye and Dowsing Anemone with Copper Tongue - as I haven't heard their new one yet.

[Annihilationscape]

I have to admit, math metal has never been my thing. I own two albums one might consider math metal: Between the Burried and Me's Alaska, and Meshuggah's most recent album (the name escapes me at the moment...) If I'm in a very specific mood or just feel like broadening my horizons, I might give them a spin... but for the most part they don't grab me.

Now, melodic metal, on the other hand... I love. It seems I lean more toward hooks, sad as it may sound. I just dig a well-crafted melody and a finely-executed harmony.

Corporal, I had totally forgotten you mentioned rush a few pages back... my bad. I went and got 2112 and Moving Pictures and enjoy both.

Tom Sawyer got under my skin because it's in Rock Band. I have to sing as Geddy Lee... falsetto ftw!