EGF's House of Lonely Hearts

[Ornette]

There's going up to a stranger and saying "Hey, beautiful", which is obviously an attempt to flatter, and most people who have at least played the social game knows what connotations go with that, on both the giving and receiving end. Then there are honest compliments, which can also be obvious, especially when it's on the level of "honest" that they get complimented all the time. Most of the time these are merely an observation as opposed to something with an ulterior motive (e.g. "Wow, that's a really neat color that your eyes have", "That's an awesome shirt", etc.). Some people hear this so often that it doesn't even phase them, even if there are ulterior motives. I get complimented on my hair pretty much every time I leave the house, even pose for pictures, and they almost usually start off with "I know you probably get this all the time", and you really think nothing of if because you do get it all the time.

If you interact with enough people (that you don't know), it's usually pretty easy to tell which one is which. I think with most guys, the issue is the not-as-obvious middle ground, which can be used as an indicator of whether a girl is interested. But with most girls it seems the issue is the obvious come-ons, as it makes it obvious what's going on and you only play that game if you want to hook up. This is why there are all these "pick-up lines" that are an attempt at sounding not so obvious. The scale between "creepy" and "obvious honest compliment" can vary between person to person, physical appearance obviously having a lot to do with it. (And I don't mean whether someone is pretty or ugly, just that being a complete stranger, your physical appearance is the only thing someone has to go on)

As a guy, I see nothing wrong with providing an obvious compliment, I think most people (male or female) don't mind, especially if as the conversation continues, it's apparent that there's no ulterior motive. Something that's not an "obvious" compliment is if you're clearly complementing on something that's obviously not true. I complement strangers on things at social events or bars all the time. Get some sauce in me and I'm willing to talk about anything, and I've never gotten the impression that any compliment I gave someone made them feel uncomfortable. The worst that has happened is telling someone something that they're tired of hearing about.

[Catamari]

Just leave me the hell out of it.

I say "more power to you", in that respect. I find the whole "big tits, thin torso, bubble-ass" standard unattractive, and, I've found that more people in my age demographic aren't attracted to it. There will always be a subset of people who are, but the measuring stick of beauty is slowly changing to something more reasonable, at least in my neck of the woods.

Catamari: I can't speak for others, but I tend to choose my words very carefully, and I save "creep" for very special occasions.

That's reasonable. Like I said a number of posts ago, I've dated women so afraid of being drugged/raped that they wouldn't sit in the front seat of my car (God help them if I had a two seater), interestingly they were very quick to use the term "creep" for people, there's something about high school students, I think, and I think they're the people I, unfortunately, base my standard on.

In typical Ornette fashion, he managed to say exactly what I was thinking. I swear you're psychic.

[NemZ]

But everything about social standards of beauty / 'attractiveness' and how they're expressed are so hopelessly fucked up... Just leave me the hell out of it.

Impossible, sorry. Even if you don't take part, merely by being a person who is not invisible you're stuck with it.

I wouldn't exactly consider a manipulative sociopath seducing an insecure person (possibly traumatized by a history of abuse and in dire need of help) an equal relationship. It's pretty fucked up that you'd even suggest such a thing.

Woah there... you're reading a hell of a lot of extraneous information into that statement. Try again, without the baggage.

Furthermore I find the whole paradigm of sex as something women have that guys have to earn/buy/trick/steal from them to be completely sexist.

[Chuckman]

That's reasonable. Like I said a number of posts ago, I've dated women so afraid of being drugged/raped that they wouldn't sit in the front seat of my car (God help them if I had a two seater)

Wait, what? You mean they wouldn't get in the car at all, or they sat in the back seat?

[Catamari]

Wait, what? You mean they wouldn't get in the car at all, or they sat in the back seat?

Back seat.

It was weird, but I just rolled with it.

[Reichu]

Impossible, sorry. Even if you don't take part, merely by being a person who is not invisible you're stuck with it

Mehhhhhhhhhhhh.

Woah there... you're reading a hell of a lot of extraneous information into that statement. Try again, without the baggage.

Not sure what you thought I meant, but when I said...

The whole "tell the insecure, undesirable girl how good-looking she is, and she'll spread her legs wide open" maneuver is probably one of the oldest ones in the book. Unfortunately, we live in a world inundated with PUAs, frat boys trying to impress their fellow Greeks, and other such nonsense.

...I was implying precisely such a scenario. Sociopathic men taking advantage of fucked-up women. It's a real thing. As a female creature who could be construed at a glance as "that insecure nerdy chick that nobody wants to fuck" -- prime for a particular kind of 'game' -- I can't pretend it's not out there.

Furthermore I find the whole paradigm of sex as something women have that guys have to earn/buy/trick/steal from them to be completely sexist.

Well, you should, because it is.

[Chuckman]

Back seat.

It was weird, but I just rolled with it.

That is one of the weirdest things I have ever heard.

I haven't been on a date since 2002. I'm seriously thinking about deleting my OKCupid account if I'm going to run into shit like this.

[Catamari]

I'm seriously thinking about deleting my OKCupid account if I'm going to run into shit like this.

That's a little much. I've not seen that since high school. I think it was because they had a very, very extreme "awareness program" for date rape and it successfully scared half of the bloody school. Seriously, I doubt anybody you find on OKC will be that paranoid.

...I was implying precisely such a scenario. Sociopathic men taking advantage of fucked-up women. It's a real thing; I can't pretend it's not out there.

It certainly happens, it's just part of reality, though. The vulnerable tend to be exploited by those that smell an opportunity. Used car salesmen, high-interest loans, etc. Just because it happens and is a problem, doesn't mean it's prevalent. Perhaps moreso in a college town, but I would venture to say that the vast majority of people aren't actively looking for vulnerable marks to fuck. Car insurance fraud is a big problem, but that doesn't mean any more than a small fraction of drivers are fraudsters.

[NemZ]

I was implying precisely such a scenario. Sociopathic men taking advantage of fucked-up women. It's a real thing.

A guy handing out compliments in the hopes of trying to get laid isn't by default a manipulative sociopath though... that's a pretty standard-issue thing to do in relationships. Not giving out compliments is frequently a cause for complaint. And again, in some sense he obviously DOES find her attractive otherwise why would he be pursuing her?

Nor is every insecure girl to be handed a warning label about trauma and a 'please help me' sign. That's kinda fucked up too, tossing people into categories and assuming they need outside assistance.

And I mentioned the women as sexual gatekeeper issue because it's implicit in the way you're reading these motives and assigning blame. How exactly is this hypothetical dude "taking advantage?"

[Reichu]

NemZ: I get the distinct feeling that we're at cross-purposes...

[Ironfoot]

Ironfoot: I actually was trying to arrange an IRL meetup, so my desire for live chat didn't represent a desire to regress so much as a desire to engage in the kind of meaningful, real-time rhetoric that is impossible via texting.

Oh, trying to avoid the terrible texting world in general. I'm not a fan of it myself, but of course everyone else does it. "Hey, would you like to switch our communications to a device that will be much harder to communicate with just because it's a so-called proper social paradigm to flirt with?" In which case, your expectations clashed with his but in this day and age, it's not surprising. Half the time I expect that to happen to me.

Thanks for your detailed reply. I don't have much to say in response... The current state of affairs in the world of mate attraction is wholly depressing. (Maybe it always was.) Makes me wish honest/no-bullshit types like myself could find each other over long distances via pheromonal secretions only we can produce.

That's fine, most people don't know what to say to me when I go off on a rant. I looked for some kind of nobullshitdating dot com site but they of course do not exist. That would be an oxymoron. And yeah, I wish that too.

[Mr. Tines]

Well, you should, because it is.

So that's why I got waylayed by a girl on a motorbike asking if I wanted to come back to her room and proffering a crash helmet. Or got word of mouth that another girl really wanted me to go to see her in her digs before she went down after graduating.

[Reichu]

I have no illusions about my own sex. I'm an egalitarian feminist, so that both sexes are equally depraved is a given.

[NemZ]

Okay, now I'm lost. Partially because I don't understand what exactly Tines' point is (I mean those would be examples of the opposite of what I was complaining about), and partially because I don't see anything 'depraved' in such an offer.

[EvangelionFan]

Okay, now I'm lost. Partially because I don't understand what exactly Tines' point is (I mean those would be examples of the opposite of what I was complaining about), and partially because I don't see anything 'depraved' in such an offer.

but it's evident that we need to start collecting all of Tine's little confessions into one place because they're forum gold

[pwhodges]

Mr Tines's post is a perfect example of that deadpan British humour that so disconcerts the rest of the world. I do it too sometimes.

'cause all guys are creepy and are dishonorable and beat women and rape them.

Perhaps Hodges or Baggsy-boo could drop in and provide a little sage wisdom on this whole situation.

Not sure what I can say to help. I don't beat or rape women, and I try not to be creepy or dishonourable, so I have little direct experience to offer.

I suppose it all comes down to that fact society as a whole has no appreciation of risk, and the meaning of statistics relating to it. The popular press and media encourage this, because it suits them to go for sensational interpretations at all times, rather than rational. And governments have lost confidence in their own judgement, so introduce more and more knee-jerk legislation over matters that don't justify the effort in order to chase popularity. So by these means we have trained a whole generation into fear and mistrust, not only of strangers, but of each other, which may save a handful from disaster, but condemns the rest of them to a life of misery avoiding what is unlikely to happen.

[Mr. Tines]

Okay, now I'm lost. Partially because I don't understand what exactly Tines' point is

Just try reversing the sexes in either of those encounters -- we may all think "Cute member of appropriate sex, would bang." but it's the girl who gets to decide whether that forms adequate grounds to turn from merely wishful thinking to *ahem* doing the deed (indeed I found out after the fact that in the first of those incidents there had been a little race going on to see who would get me as a notch on the bed post).

depraved

Depends how you define it. Everything done was totally vanilla -- except that all the young ladies in question also had steady boyfriends at the time.

[Madonna]

It's very much true that both sexes can be equally depraved. I've had females tell me they want to sleep with me despite knowing that I was gay and had a boyfriend (at the time), it was hugely offensive to me; unlike when other gay guys use to ask me out when they knew I was already in a monogamous relationship, these girls thought my homosexuality was just a phase and something that could be changed.

[NemZ]

there had been a little race going on to see who would get me as a notch on the bed post

Heh! Surely the best answer is to suggest a tie?

[Mr. Tines]

Heh! Surely the best answer is to suggest a tie?

If I knew then what I know now...